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AEW - January 2022


MoeCristyV.1.6

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One thing that struck me this year with AEW is that for much of the year you could ask the question "so who is the top black face in the company?" and really struggle to come up with a respectable answer. The last few months you can at least point to Dante as while he doesn't win a ton he's at least been featured a bit, but for much of the middle 6 months of the year the answer was probably... Red Velvet? Sonny Kiss on the men's side? It actually confused me that people were so struck by Swole's comments as its been pretty clear for a while that AEW has its blind spots, it doesn't make them evil or bad but there are things they legit need to work on.

 

I think a larger issue is that if you are a middle or lower end of the card wrestler you tend to disappear for long stretches of time and it becomes hard to build momentum, and if that is where a lot of your diversity is situated it becomes a more complicated problem. People seem to dig Shida and Riho and they'll disappear off of tv for months at a time, it feels like every single time Team Taz has an angle or feud set up it ends abruptly and they get lost in Darkville for ages (you can do this with a Best Friends feud once rather than have them all go on forever). Basically fixing things requires effort and I think it is fair to look at AEW and wonder if they've been putting in said fair effort.

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7 minutes ago, username said:

One thing that struck me this year with AEW is that for much of the year you could ask the question "so who is the top black face in the company?" and really struggle to come up with a respectable answer.

Was supposed to be Ricky Starks’ year to break out before he hurt his neck.

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It occurred to me that maybe twice now, we thought Cody was going to do a Pedigree, when he actually hit a Tiger Driver '98. Then last night he did the double underhook, and we all just knew it would be the TD98 again. What happens on the day that we expect it to be another TD98 ... and it isn't?

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1 hour ago, RunningFromAmerica said:

Anna Jay is pushed because she is young and smoking hot

Name all the black women wrestlers who have been given as many opportunities to be on national television just because they were young and smoking hot. I get why you would push Anna Jay, I'm not saying she shouldn't have a chance to perform. I'm just pointing out that she gets opportunities that literally no black woman has ever been extended. 

Scorpio Sky is kind of the best illustration of what I'm taking about. Scorpio Sky got an opportunity to see if he could sink or swim starting in November of 2019.  Scorpio Sky is a guy who has all the attributes you could want in a wrestler. He's a good looking guy,  pretty charismatic,  good in the ring,  and I can see why you'd give him the opportunity to see if he could be a future star. Except he's 38 years old and has been wrestling since 2002 and never actually won any of the matches that mattered in his big push. It's one thing to earn a title shot,  but he was clearly just a challenger in his matches with Jericho and Cody. He didn't feel like the next big guy,  he seemed like a veteran who could fill in when they needed someone to challenge for a title between feuds. That isn't a bad place to be,  but if that's the push of his career,  it feels like a lot of wasted potential.

@Elsalvajelocobrought up The Rock who is another person who is so overwhelmingly talented he shouldn't be included in this discussion. If a dude who became one of the biggest movie stars in the world is the measuring stick, no one else is ever going to feel worthy of an opportunity.

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32 minutes ago, Dog said:

It occurred to me that maybe twice now, we thought Cody was going to do a Pedigree, when he actually hit a Tiger Driver '98. Then last night he did the double underhook, and we all just knew it would be the TD98 again. What happens on the day that we expect it to be another TD98 ... and it isn't?

He said he wouldn’t. And he won’t. It would shatter this delightful illusion.

cody. Don’t. Plz 

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37 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

He said he wouldn’t. And he won’t. It would shatter this delightful illusion.

cody. Don’t. Plz 

You really think he set this up for nothing? ? it'll be his face turn Hahaha. 

Edited by Jiji
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5 hours ago, SirFozzie said:

Powerhouse Hobbs.

Lio Rush

Dante Martin.

 

Hobbs: What exactly has he done other than stand around and be Ricky's muscle for the last couple of months? Lose to the only two name guys he's faced?

Rush: Basically disappeared after Dante joined Team Taz.

Martin: Flavor of the month. Got a couple of showcase matches, joined Team Taz, dumped Team Taz and then lost to MJF. Will probably lose to Starks because Ricky's been behind the announcer's table for too long and he desperately needs some wins.

Edited by APO
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2 hours ago, supremebve said:

Name all the black women wrestlers who have been given as many opportunities to be on national television just because they were young and smoking hot. I get why you would push Anna Jay, I'm not saying she shouldn't have a chance to perform. I'm just pointing out that she gets opportunities that literally no black woman has ever been extended. 

Scorpio Sky is kind of the best illustration of what I'm taking about. Scorpio Sky got an opportunity to see if he could sink or swim starting in November of 2019.  Scorpio Sky is a guy who has all the attributes you could want in a wrestler. He's a good looking guy,  pretty charismatic,  good in the ring,  and I can see why you'd give him the opportunity to see if he could be a future star. Except he's 38 years old and has been wrestling since 2002 and never actually won any of the matches that mattered in his big push. It's one thing to earn a title shot,  but he was clearly just a challenger in his matches with Jericho and Cody. He didn't feel like the next big guy,  he seemed like a veteran who could fill in when they needed someone to challenge for a title between feuds. That isn't a bad place to be,  but if that's the push of his career,  it feels like a lot of wasted potential.

@Elsalvajelocobrought up The Rock who is another person who is so overwhelmingly talented he shouldn't be included in this discussion. If a dude who became one of the biggest movie stars in the world is the measuring stick, no one else is ever going to feel worthy of an opportunity.

Unfortunately for Scorpio, if he came around this type of environment and was 28 and not 38 (which honestly ain't that old), he would have a lot more to look forward to. With a lot of guys who have been around forever and just getting their big break now, it feels like everything for them has to happen now. You look at someone like a Randy Savage, and his first run as WWF champion started at 35 going on 36 six months later. He was considered way too old by 1992/93 yet still managed to draw money for another five years. Moreover, he was able to make another guy (DDP) who had kinda languished in midcard hell in two seperate stints for WCW over six years into a superstar. Since Scorpio doesn't have that overwhelming charisma, he's not gonna get that same opportunity extended to him and basically be used as a good hand. 

As for Rock, I think he's a very intriguing baseline. Why? Because no one saw what he ultimately ended up being. Folks thought if he became a star, it would be as a traditional babyface fighting from underneath. He got his shots to make it work and his ceiling....just didn't exist because he was that talented. 

I am not saying Jade Cargill can be that because simply 99% of folks (if they exist) never live up to that type of potential. Matter of fact, there is more likelihood she only gets slightly better and that's her level. She's going to get opportunity after opportunity simply because that's how wrestling goes if you look like that.

Going back to Swole's line about her child seeing someone who looks like her or w/e, you know the one person I wish would have succeeded and didn't? Ahmed Johnson. Why? Because he was my JYD since I was too young to remember JYD. I remember the out-of shape, not motivated Dog towards the end of his WWF run and sorta remember him in WCW for that cup of coffee but not his heyday in Mid-South. It makes me wish Tony Norris the person actually gave a fuck about the business and didn't do dumb shit. The character Ahmed Johnson was everything as a young fan I wanted it to be and could identify with. Black? Check. From my home state of Mississippi? Check even though the guy playing him was from like Houston I think. Big, strong, and powerful with devastating looking offense? Check. When you think about it, he was actually black Goldberg and Goldberg before Goldberg. Go back and check out some of the pops he got from 96 and 97 (in particular KotR 96 and Rumble 97 IIRC). The pops that he got were the pops only reserved for superstars. Couldn't cut a promo to save his life, but it didn't matter because he was set up to be the next JYD (Ross has gone on record and said as much). Sadly, between being paranoid backstage, getting hurt several times, hurting others he was working with several times, and just not understanding the business in the general, it didn't last very long at all. In 96 and 97, he was getting huge pops. By 1998 before he was gone from WWF, you could hear a pin drop in the arena when he came out. The window had closed. I got to tell you as a black fan coming from a lower middle class background in the rural South, not having that was miserable. Granted, my JYD type figures ended up being New Jack when I got more into ECW and Booker T (Stevie Ray also by proxy), which were not bad consolation prizes at all. However, to this very day, I wish it was him because that was when I was much, much younger. I still loved Rock don't get me wrong, but Rock didn't come from the same background as those guys did. Also, Rock was a crossover superstar. Who wasn't going to love him? 

And maybe that's what Swole means by that line. As someone who grew up around a bunch of black women, IMO maybe Swole doesn't see Jade or Velvet in that light which isn't that far off from how a lot of black folks view other black people crazy as it might seem. Maybe Swole sees Jade as not African-American but Jamaican since that is Jade's background and there is a clear delineation between African-Americans and other black Americans (especially recently when you talk about the controversy in the black community with Kamala Harris for the last few years). Maybe because Velvet and Brandi are with white guys and Swole's significant other is black, maybe she feels some type of way. That's another big issue within our community. And as silly as it might seem, it's still a hot button topic that we always discuss amongst ourselves. Who knows how and why Swole feels that way? But from that perspective, I can still see why she might say that. I mean if someone came up to me and asked why I identify with Booker or New Jack more than Rock on a personal level, then I necessarily don't have to give an explanation just like they don't need to explain to me why they love country or metal over hip-hop or some shit. You identify with what you identify with. Your preferences are your preferences.

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9 hours ago, APO said:

Jade is literally the only black act in AEW that has a consistent push and/or gets TV time regularly. The Acclaimed are the only other act you could somewhat make a case for, but they usually lose any time they have a match on TV.

No. Scorpio Sky was recently in a significant TV feud. Hobbs has had more significant presence since late summer (incl Punk match; Ring Battle Royal presence). Dante Martin is 20, has had significant TV time & been widely presented as the next rung below the “pillars” for future stardom. So this is simply incorrect. 
 

Guevara’s title reign was totally fluffed (predictable: I called out what a horrid decision it was him going over Miro the moment it happened). Miro went from monster to neutered fool who dropped numerous consecutive losses before going off TV. MJF was fodder to Jericho’s ego before he made his own success. This was all simply bad booking, and symptomatic of a company who is clearly influenced to dedicate TV time to the “VP” talent as well as their ratings roll-of-the-dice in bringing more recognisable talent like Punk/Danielson (and the ratings have faded regardless - predictable). So unless you think that deadweight donkey Jericho continues receiving significant TV time because he is white instead of because he was a day-one talent on an enormous contract, this is as I said a company booking-problem not a diversification-problem. Basically everyone (except Darby + MJF, who again completely make their own luck) has been pushed to the side in favour of i) VP time; ii) affiliates of VPs (e.g. Cole, Fish etc); iii) one of the 3 ‘blockbuster’ signings (Sting, Punk, Danielson). 

Edited by A_K
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I loved Ahmed Johnson as a kid. Goldberg before Goldberg is spot on. The Goldust brawl is something else. Him killing the Hardys holding the KOTR doors open is the stuff of legend, as is his brief but memorable run in BJW. That he didn't really get pro wrestling and was a danger to others is kind of what made him (and Goldberg) so awe inspiring. Goldberg eventually figured it out mostly (fuck him forever for the Bret match) and was granted way more leeway and opportunity to do so, to connect back to the point of this whole issue. There's an alternate timeline in which Ahmed was a top star. 

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2 hours ago, APO said:

Hobbs: What exactly has he done other than stand around and be Ricky's muscle for the last couple of months? Lose to the only two name guys he's faced?

Wardlow: What exactly has he done other than stand around and be MJF’s muscle taking off his robe for the last 2 years? Lose to Cody on Dynamite and beat a few jobbers like Baron Black, Jason Hotch and Chandler Hopkins on Dark/Elevation in 24 months

Edited by A_K
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Ahmed Johnson came right out of the gate by body slamming Yokozuna when that still had some OH SHIT! factor to it and at the beginning I absolutely thought he was going to be WWF Champion at some point.

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3 minutes ago, BobbyWhioux said:

Ahmed Johnson came right out of the gate by body slamming Yokozuna when that still had some OH SHIT! factor to it and at the beginning I absolutely thought he was going to be WWF Champion at some point.

He slammed Yoko after he'd gotten a lot bigger from when Luger had slammed him no less. I forget, was that his WWF debut? The Pearl River Plunge was a totally badass looking finisher too. When I first saw him I also thought he was a future champ and he probably could have been had circumstances been different.

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4 hours ago, supremebve said:

Name all the black women wrestlers who have been given as many opportunities to be on national television just because they were young and smoking hot. I get why you would push Anna Jay, I'm not saying she shouldn't have a chance to perform. I'm just pointing out that she gets opportunities that literally no black woman has ever been extended. 

Scorpio Sky is kind of the best illustration of what I'm taking about. 

@Elsalvajeloco

1. Brandi is 38 but she's pretty hot and has been pushed, despite not being good at all. I think she's more than acceptable as counter example, and if no pregnancy then who knows? Red Velvet's push is long-term but she wasn't exactly great when she started and she really isn't that far behind Anna Jay in the pecking order. 

2. Scorpio Sky is a pretty good example of an average dude who shouldn't have been going over Darby Allin in a million years. He has less to offer but was given more than many of the average guys you chide. 

Additional: if ppl don't feel represented by certain ppl BC of who they're married to or because they're of Caribbean heritage or whatever then ok I guess, but whether you can realistically be entitled to such precise representation is questionable in my view.

Edited by RunningFromAmerica
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3 hours ago, BobbyWhioux said:

Ahmed Johnson came right out of the gate by body slamming Yokozuna when that still had some OH SHIT! factor to it and at the beginning I absolutely thought he was going to be WWF Champion at some point.

Well, he was on that trajectory. Going back to supreme's point about white people being allowed to be mediocre, Jim Hellwig got to be bad in the ring, hurt others, and cut terrible, meandering promos and they tried to make him the next Hogan. Didn't work out for Ahmed like that. He got the IC belt, but at some point, he got into a real life blood feud with Ron Simmons, got hurt, and it came apart at the seams from there. I also remember Ahmed at the Slammys (I think 97 and not 96 where he got the New Sensation award or whatever the rookie of the year equivalent award was) where he made vaguely shoot comments about Shawn Michaels and looked legit pissed for some reason that came off bizarre since both were babyfaces and teamed up just some months earlier. It came off as a guy basically reading his obituary at his own funeral. I guess he was in the WWF doghouse by that point and blamed Shawn for it. Either way, that was a huge no-no from a backstage politics point of view. That said, Hunter made some very nasty and demeaning comments about Sunny at that same ceremony that would get the normal person fired today. The Slammys were just a super bad idea in general unless we're talking about Owen Hart being awesome.

Oh, and speaking of Ron Simmons, he was a terrible choice for the next JYD and I love Ron Simmons. I talked about this before, but as talented as Ron was and having a great look, I don't think anyone could buy him as that. Add in the fact, that WWF tried to make him the Malcolm X of this anti-establishment faction. I think New Jack said it best in one of his shoot interviews. People simply didn't buy it coming from Ron Simmons. When I think anti-white establishment, I think New Jack and not the guy who played football for Bobby Bowden at Florida State. Black people can identify with Ron Simmons, but not in that way. I think that may be one of the bigger issues with diversity. I think white people (and to be fair, people of many other races and ethnicities) have a very loose definition of representation. And that's not to say white people can't understand black people. Hell, Quentin Tarantino has been able to write black dialogue effectively for the better part of 25 or 30 years. However, creatively, you can be in the ballpark and still be WAY OFF. I mean Jim Cornette came up with some of the stuff for Too Cold Scorpio when he was being rechristened as Flash Funk with the Rick James' Love Gun stuff at the very beginning when they were fleshing it out. This is the same guy who talks about his love for the SOS Band, which kills me dead. He also let New Jack pretty much have creative license over the Gangstas in Smoky Mountain, which is why it worked (perhaps too well but I digress). Yet, Cornette is the same guy who called a security guy the N word and had a few ugly racial incidents. So when that guy, Bruce Prichard (a guy who regularly delved into racist humor on his own podcast), and Vince McMahon are responsible for choosing who my wrestling Malcolm X is, I shouldn't be all that surprised they swung and missed badly. And two of those guys (Ross probably as well since he was savvy enough to have Dwayne do the Primetime Deion Sanders bit) at the time were super pop culture savvy to make up for Vince's blindspots of not understanding pop culture. 

For people to go, "well this is your representation" or "it's not a diversity issue", then clearly you're not seeing the music in between the notes. This is why wrestling really doesn't resonate with a large and diverse audience anymore. I couldn't imagine the people who sat in the crow's nest at the Ellis Auditorium being that excited to see something like today's wrestling even though there are more black wrestlers at the top than ever before. For some reason, it just doesn't feel the same. Hence, why you need BOTH The Rock and Ron Simmons type wrestlers in addition to the Booker T, New Jack, and Ahmed Johnson type guys. I believe I heard Cornette on the In the News compilation talk about the difference between Bearcat Brown and Bearcat Wright. One was more accessible to white people and got to be part of the first big integrated tag team in wrestling w/ Len Rossi and the other was more militant. Point being is you need both. A yin and a yang. If fans and the people ultimately in charge just say, "well we put ten black people out there... just be happy", then we have a larger problem than we even realize. I'm still going to watch wrestling cause I been doing it my whole life, but that's still a fucked up issue that needs to be corrected. Personally, just speaking from my viewpoint, I don't see it being corrected anytime soon and that's why I don't look to AEW to correct it. 

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19 minutes ago, RunningFromAmerica said:

1. Brandi is 38 but she's pretty hot and has been pushed

She's also a VP and she gets latch herself to her husband.

To me, Red Velvet when she first showed up seemed like a solution to the problem of "people don't really buy into Brandi so get another black chick" as a smokescreen. I felt bad she got slotted in that position. On top of that, before this, she tried to roll out half crippled Kong out there and THAT didn't work. 

And this why Tony Khan is THE booker and not one of these other people.

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9 minutes ago, RunningFromAmerica said:

But at the end of the day the request to name a precise black equivalent of Anna Jay is way too specific. 

No, not really because I don't see it as too precise. That said, I understand why she got that push. She was trained by QT and was going to get her opportunity. 

Matter of fact, if they had brought in one of these girls I think I've seen on Dark or the indies looking like a fake ass Sasha Banks and couldn't wrestle a lick, then I would say that's your example. But they haven't really. 

And to just say, "I THINK WE MIGHT HAVE THREE!" goes back to my point above. 

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4 minutes ago, MoeCristyV.1.6 said:

Bring back the Nightmare Collective. 

Let's just say we did and let it stay in wrestling hell where it belongs along with Reo Rodgers, Mantaur, and Bully Busick.

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4 hours ago, supremebve said:

Name all the black women wrestlers who have been given as many opportunities to be on national television just because they were young and smoking hot. I get why you would push Anna Jay, I'm not saying she shouldn't have a chance to perform. I'm just pointing out that she gets opportunities that literally no black woman has ever been extended. 

Kinda late responding, but it’s Jade Cargill. In fact she probably has even less experience, and is being given a bigger push. But yeah, not too many.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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2 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Kinda late responding, but it’s Jade Cargill. In fact she probably has even less experience, and is being given a bigger push.

Jade is damn near 30 though and a mom. Anna Jay looks like she's 19.

To me, it's like late 70s and early 80s Tommy Rich and then there is late 80s Tommy Rich who looks a several pack a day smoker with a beer gut. Quite a difference.

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