Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board

December 2021 Wrestling Discussion


Blue Dragon
 Share

Recommended Posts

10 minutes ago, Infinit said:

It could be an excuse....but MSG was sold out for the Knicks game yesterday. So people will definitely come out to see something they want to see.

But if the poor ticket sales are because WWE fans are Covid woke, good for them.

I think its part of the equation. But their crappy product is likely the greater percentage. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I presume the haters will not accept the pandemic as a partial reason for the poor attendance. 

I barely wanted to go to the movies this week in a theater with less than 10 people. I can't imagine going to a major league sporting event right now.

Speaking of the movies, Spider-Man: NWH did like half a billy without the Chinese box office, I believe, and not on HBO MAX or anything.

I presume that "the haters" aren't aimlessly hating.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

I don’t know, but you gotta threaten me at gun point to watch Coliseum videos outside of the skits. That includes the 80’s.

You're totally right BUT NOSTALGIA~!

However, if you NEED to go to sleep, watch a Coliseum video release from 1987 where it's like the Killer Bees vs. The Conquistadors or directionless, face Don Muraco vs. Iron Mike Sharpe. Out like a light.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I watched the one that had the big pre-Survivor Series elimination match. That was great. But good Lord the rest of that tape is awful. I didn’t want to take a gamble, and watch another just to see if it had a hidden gem.

It truly is a nostalgic thing. When you’re a kid renting these things, and you’re used to watching syndicated shows, this is the the only way to watch a bunch of “big matches”. But looking back you realize the lack of effort, the fact that they taped these on the back end of tapings, and the absolutely garbage endings. We were fooled. 

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Best match I've seen is probably Punk/Jericho from WM 28 or Austin/Undertaker from IYH: Cold Day in Hell. I went to a lot of JCP/WCW house shows as a little kid in the mid-late 80s/early 90s but I didn't really appreciate match quality much then. I do remember seeing a pretty insane Cactus Jack/Abdullah the Butcher street fight in 91 or 92 when I was like 12. Abby hiptossed Cactus through the wooden barricades right next to where I was sitting and Cactus took a flat back right onto the concrete. Sounded like if you were to just drop a steak from the top of a staircase onto a concrete floor. Just a gross splat. Probably about 1500 people in the building that night. The best part is that this one redneck guy had been heckling the wrestlers all night and talking shit at them. He smacked Abby on the back when they were near us and Abby kinda stood up and started towards him while kinda making his weird Abdullah noises and faces. The dude backed up and went ass over tea kettle onto the floor when he tripped over a chair. The whole section clowned him for the rest of the night.

Edited by cwoy2j
  • Like 3
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The main event of the first show I remember going to was Dusty Rhodes vs. Tully Blanchard in an I Quit match. Dusty won when he took JJ Dillon's shoe and ground the heel into Tully's eye for the submission. Richmond Coliseum in 86 or 87.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking at the NYC page and here's Covid numbers by borough on December 13th and 20th

December 13th: Bronx 967, Brooklyn 1309, Manhattan 1120, Queens 1030, Staten Island 507

December 20th: Bronx 1434, Brooklyn 4015, Manhattan 3889, Queens 2589, Staten Island 683

The numbers tripling in a week in the home borough of MSG isn't great for the sake of consumer confidence if you're living there or close to there.

That's not even covering the period of time when New York State went from 26k new cases on 12/20 to 45k new cases on 12/24. It's slightly too early to cite hospital rates because of how much of the increase is recent but hopefully adding 2x/3x as many cases as their previous peaks doesn't lead to high numbers (even if the % of cases resulting in hospitalizations could be down)

The WWE TV in front of empty crowds and screens likely wasn't very good either but the combination of their TV product and various markets is not gonna go well right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually watched that particular Taker/Austin match from the IYH in Richmond last night. The actual match itself wasn't that good because there are some lengthy restholds as something is going on the crowd offscreen (I'm assuming there was probably some fights after the Hart Foundation made their way to the front row) and Austin is on the clear ascent but not really larger than life Steve Austin yet. The former was very distracting because the camera kept panning to them, and then I think someone actually hit Neidhart caused he was pissed. It felt like something you would do on a Raw and not a PPV. The finish was great through with the tombstone reversals, and it looked like Austin's head might legit have been an inch off the ground when Taker dropped down. Post match was great too because it totally made you forget Austin lost and it was a nothing match, and you got him stunning Taker at the end to keep him strong.

Cold Day in Hell felt like a televised house show, and they just put together a card because they were doing monthly shows at that point. That card could have never taken place and nothing would have changed. And to be fair, Revenge of the Taker a month earlier wasn't that much better if you remove the last two matches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, odessasteps said:

I presume the haters will not accept the pandemic as a partial reason for the poor attendance. 

I barely wanted to go to the movies this week in a theater with less than 10 people. I can't imagine going to a major league sporting event right now.

I can accept the pandemic as partial reasoning. But I think the bigger reasoning is house shows in general lack a purpose. Sure taking young kids to see WWE up close definitely serves a purpose. But in 2021 when we know nothing significant is going to happen on a house show, they're kind of irrelevant. Especially in this era of overly scripted WWE. You're not gonna get a random FTR vs Roode & Gable 45 minute banger anymore. You're gonna get the same 10-12 minute match in every town from every performer on the loop.

House shows in smaller markets that don't get tv tapings are still viable. But a big MSG house show is just asking for apathy. How many New York City fans are casuals that don't know these are irrelevant shows? Not a whole hell of a lot. At this point 75% of the whole audience is at least semi smart to the online discourse in wrestling. In a big market like NYC it's probably 85-90%.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, twiztor said:

 

 

apparently a Savage/Gonzalez match was taped, potentially for a Coliseum Video. I can't see how/where this was actually released, but here you all go (it's only about 5 minutes):

 

Thank you for posting this. I love odd freak show matches you never knew happened. This was like a reverse squash. Gonzales got literally no offense besides a choke & throw. Him doing a face turn at the end there is actually pretty intriguing. Had his health & interest in wrestling not started waning I wonder if Giant Gonzales could have been an attraction as a face in this era. There's no more Hogan. No more freak body guys because of the steroid trial. I could kind of see how he could fit in. You run your Brets & Shawns in the title matches. You run your Undertaker & Papa Shangos for the occult mystical stuff. Then you run Giant Gonzales vs a low card heel factory for some freak show squashes. At the very least you run him vs Yokozuna to give Yoko a babyface monster to slay.

What other weird / freak show matches are out there? I definitely watched Zeus vs Abdullah The Butcher from WWC. That's the type of shit I'm looking for lol. The match was not good at all but I couldn't look away.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

With that outfit, Giant Gonzalez was never ever getting over.

True. The outfit in the video is even more heinous than usual. All airbrush with no fur glued on. Just airbrushed fur. Abysmal look for a baby face, so you can imagine in this scenario he gets an overhaul to his look. What was hot in 1993 to rip off? They could have given him some kind of tweak. Or at the very least just airbrushed an Andre singlet onto his normal bodysuit lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

With that outfit, Giant Gonzalez was never ever getting over.

The bigger problem is he came along at a time where you could no longer have just out and out terrible matches and be an attraction. That and not understanding how the business works. The stories I've heard from Jim Ross and Arn Anderson are hilarious but also sad because the guy (by all accounts, a very nice guy BTW) was clearly in the wrong business and didn't have innate knowledge needed to make it work. He was NEVER going to be what anyone wanted him to be.

Go back and watch the main event post match from Capitol Combat 1990. He's suppose to be this scary monster who is going to help the babyfaces, but he's totally lost and just standing in the wrong places. Like he's about a foot away from like Sid or one of the other Horsemen and just stands there with the most goofy, aloof expression ever. Man....you just want to go up and hug the guy or at least guide him out of the camera shot so he totally isn't exposing the business. Keep in mind, this is on the same show as ROBOCOP.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doesn’t that Omos fellow wear a suit to hide the physique that Vince, and Dunn don’t desire? That’s what he could’ve gone with.  Like he’s a bigger Big Bubba. Or they could’ve gone with some sort of warlord looking outfit like Vikingo has today. Look how they “fixed” Diesel. Gave him pants with tassels, and a top so tight it hid the doughy-ness of his upper body.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

The bigger problem is he came along at a time where you could no longer have just out and out terrible matches and be an attraction. That and not understanding how the business works. The stories I've heard from Jim Ross and Arn Anderson are hilarious but also sad because the guy (by all accounts, a very nice guy BTW) was clearly in the wrong business and didn't have innate knowledge needed to make it work. He was NEVER going to be what anyone wanted him to be.

Maybe, and like what @NoFistsJustFlips mentioned, he didn’t have a real interest in it. But he could’ve figured it out in a very limited way like The Giant did a few years later.
 

Speaking of Giant… Guys, if you haven’t seen it in a while go watch the series of matches Luger had with The Giant from 95 to Starrcade 1996. Those two had some unbelievable chemistry for two people you’d think would be a terrible mix. Honestly the match at Starrcade might’ve been a MOTYC just from all that build up they got from the previous matches they had during those two years. Like Lex’s past history involving Giant was the beginning of the “Can we trust Lex” face turn. In some ways the Starrcade match was the end of it.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/26/2021 at 6:03 PM, LoneWolf&Subs said:

 But he could’ve figured it out in a very limited way like The Giant did a few years later.
 

Eh...I dunno. Paul Wight was clearly freakishly athletic and could have a decent match literally a month or two into his career. There were guys literally a foot shorter than him at the Power Plant who couldn't do that. WCW hit the lottery with him. I was watching a match between Giant and John Tenta from the Nitro before BatB 96. It was not good because they went way too long but....John Tenta had been wrestling for how long at that point? Giant was a much better worker than him, and he hadn't been the business a year at that point. Jorge Gonzalez couldn't even get past Point A let alone be in a match where he is the better worker than someone else.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah is real issue was passion (and knowledge / intangibles). The Giant also started from scratch but the difference is he had that passion and drive and desire to get better and learn. Old George was just sad his basketball career didn't workout and was taking an easy paycheck with no real interest in improving. So it's just not meant to be. I still wish they gave it a shot. That's a real weird thought experiment lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Yeah is real issue was passion (and knowledge / intangibles). The Giant also started from scratch but the difference is he had that passion and drive and desire to get better and learn. Old George was just sad his basketball career didn't workout and was taking an easy paycheck with no real interest in improving. So it's just not meant to be. I still wish they gave it a shot. That's a real weird thought experiment lol.

I know Vince is a body guy and loves guys who are of a certain height, but it even shocks me that Vince gave him a shot after his WCW run. He probably had a mindset of "shit...I CAN MAKE THIS WORK, PAL." but nothing from his WCW run makes me believe he would have had any chance. Granted, Herd (and I guess the booking committee) didn't do an amazing job at hiding him. Thing is though...how do you hide a guy that bad? Keep in mind, in a less popular time from wrestling, it was going to be hard to get over anything that wasn't (a) an already established act, (b) something clearly entertaining, or (c) anything workrate oriented. In the territories, he could have gotten over. Past 1989, which unfortunately was when he actually debut, he didn't have a shot as is.

18 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Though, It took getting Giant away from Hogan to show he was passable. Those first few months were dire for him.

I think he was fine cause they pushed him right away and as a monster. The issue was sort of the inconsistent booking that was nonsensical. You have him squash everyone in 20 or 25 seconds, but like the aforementioned Tenta match, why is he going any time with John Tenta? I don't give a shit he's having a match with Ray Traylor at the PPV. Squash Tenta like he does everyone else.

They got him working a program with poor Loch Ness, who looks like he is about to die at any moment. It was a squash thank God, but why is that on Uncensored? You could have done that Nitro or a syndicated show.

I think being attached at the hip with Hogan was going to help him because Hogan loved working with those monster heels. The issue was him working with guys who weren't going to have a future with WCW even with no NWO or at least a fully formed NWO. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But none of those Hogan matches work. Maybe the association helped, but Giant's best stuff was with Lex, Sting, Macho, and Flair. The highlight of the Hogan angle was the courageous babyface Hogan hitting a defenseless  Giant over the head with a chair while he was being held back by his friends. In fact getting hooked up with Hogan yet again almost killed him in 97.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding MSG; vaccination is required to get in. I've been to one Knicks game and one Rangers game this season. Both were only 80 to 90% full. They are both running some nice discounts. I sat in section 1 for $125 including $25 of free beer, and in section 206 for $100 including $25 of free beer. other people might have used the free vouchers for food, ha ha!

BTY, everyone should go to Gosuke Restaurant on 35th street before any MSG event. JB Angel Istuki Yamazaki is the owner/president and her husband Isami makes the sushi. They are still waiting for liquor license approval. Late January?

 

Edited by ka-to
I forgot to mention
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Maybe the association helped, but Giant's best stuff was with Lex, Sting, Macho, and Flair.

Both things can be true though. The association with Hogan was essential just like working with experienced, veteran main event workers particularly Sting (if Sting can't make you look like a million dollars as a monster heel based his track record, then you absolutely suck), Macho, and Flair. He was never going to have good matches with that era of Hogan, but it did the job of helping get him over. 

I think what also aided him is they kinda detached him from all the other goofiness of the Dungeon of Doom. After awhile (before he joined the NWO later in 1996), it was just Giant and Jimmy Hart. Once it became Kevin Sullivan and his minions and Sullivan started the weird, hard to follow Horsemen feud that evolved into the Benoit feud, Giant was off doing his own thing. He probably appeared in some vignettes and some video packages with the Dungeon of Doom, but it was mainly Giant and Jimmy Hart. And thank God cause that would him made him come off as much lesser.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bossman got a chance to actually work like actually display his workrate against Hogan. He actually got to work a whole loop. Giant didn't actually get that chance against Hogan. Giant basically worked alot of Hogan Schtick to hide his inexperience 

I can understand now why guys were hard on Show when he first came to WWF because he mostly worked with the main eventers who weren't going to go out there way to  really  have good matches in the main event but at the same time WWF guys were still strongly petty against WCW talent especially those that have never been in a WWF lockeroom

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

It’s excruciating how long that DoD thing goes on for. And the matches never get better, even in a so good it’s bad way.

At least we were able to enjoy King Curtis screaming for the last time.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • RIPPA locked and unpinned this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...