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December 2021 Wrestling Discussion


Kang

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It's wrestling. "Out of nowhere" things are often super obvious.

AJ Styles' Pele kick used to be an out of nowhere move he could hit at any time, on any one. The fact that he hit it after ducking a clothesline like 95% of the time was merely a coincidence.

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3 hours ago, supremebve said:

Is this in relation to American wrestling?  Is this something your local wrestling values?  I was wondering if other countries with wrestling traditions care. I don't know whether anyone actually cares what lucha or Japanese wrestlers say or if they are judged by Mexican or Japanese fans based on whether or not they can cut a promo. 

This brings up a point that is damned interesting, to me at least:

Going by my experience, fandom in Japan, and pro wrestling fandom in particular, seems to be very very very different indeed from what it is in North America. I'm not any kind of educated expert in Japanese culture, but I've been living here almost 13 years, I have Japanese family, close Japanese friends, Japanese drinking buddies and training partners... I've taught literally dozens and dozens and dozens of high-level conversation students. Before Corona I spent a significant amount of my free time hanging out with pro wrestlers and crazy pro wrestling fans. Everyone who knows me knows I was involved in, and love, pro wrestling. I have had literally hundreds and hundreds of conversations about pro wrestling, and if those conversations involved any kind of judging (and particularly any kind of negativity or shit-talking) then I was talking to another "gaijin" wrestling fan. With Japanese fans, we talk about what we like. if they don't like something, they prefer not to get into it. Which fits in with my general impression of Japanese social life.

As far as I can tell, the lion's share of Japanese fandom is about appreciation rather than about judging, ranking, bad-mouthing... 

A couple of times, I have sat with a Japanese wrestling fan who was proficient in English, or with a student who is really into wrestling, and had them translate wrestling discussion on, like 2chan or something. It's a festival of agreement and positivity. Small sample size, but: Shockingly different from what you might find even here on DVDVR, where people tend to be pretty civil and open-minded but we also enjoy lots of disagreement and trash-talk and complaining about how we don't like stuff. 

TL/DR: In my experience, Japanese wrestling fans are marks for their favourite wrestling and favourite wrestlers, rather than being marks for their own hipsterish opinions about pro wrestling! You seem to score a lot more social points here by being enthusiastic about a thing rather than by being "sophisticated" or "refined" with regard to how you appreciate it. So, Japanese fans are more into "appreciating" than "judging."

Not saying it's better (or worse). It is definitely different. 

 

Edited by Gordberg
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20 hours ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

Garvin didn't give a shit about anything then making money. It's why he went to WWF after the heel turn. He felt Dusty was cutting him off constantly. Garvin wasn't a belt mark.

Damn, I forgot all about that heel run.

10 hours ago, twiztor said:

 

as for him being the "worst NWA champ",  i disagree. I doubt Rob Conway was outstanding as champ. And "Colorado Kid" Mike Rapada, who traded the belt with Sabu? clearly inferior. And really most of the champs between JCP and TNA are pretty forgettable (Severn, Corino, and a handful of others are excluded obviously). and post-TNA, pre-Corgan doesn't have the best history either

Personally, I don’t consider anything post-Crockett split truly “NWA.”  

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Bryan Danielson said recently that he WWE was willing to let him work for Promotions in Japan. I can't remember if he named New Japan specifically. He said the Covid thing obviously got in the way of that. Now I'm thinking that if he had stayed and Covid wasn't an issue if he would have set a precedent of other guys wanting to get booked over there. With New Japan having a small TV presence over here in the states and now they have invested more on Gaijin talent states side, other WWE talent would lobbying to get booked over there too.

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Well, this is lovely.

Quote

Those who attended the 11/21 IWA Mid South Wrestling show in New Albany, IN and feel that they were exposed to blood borne pathogens, please contact the Floyd County Health Department at 812-948-4726 for information on HIV and Hep-C testing.

 

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Some wrestlers are great as babyfaces while others are better as a heel. Fewer still are great at both. Of those I'd say: Bryan Danielson going from the Yes Movement as beloved face to hated heel as The New Daniel Bryan, Eddie Guerrero, Bret Hart, Terry Funk and Steve Austin.

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11 hours ago, caley said:

It's easy shit that's never going to main event,

Maybe this is the bit that's seen as the problem. There's been all sorts of fun midcard shit cut off at the knees or pushed to far or whatever, it seems a lot like WWE are just interested in the stuff that's going to be massive for years to come without giving a damn about stuff which can still be fun in the middle of a show.

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19 hours ago, Phantom Lord said:

Andre would be in Omos's boots and spot if he were alive today.

I mean that might not be a bad thing. He's been booked as a monster that no one can touch. Unless he's done one elsewhere, Omos has yet to leave his feet in every single match he's had on RAW. Not one bump. It might be something special for the guy who finally knocks him off his feet kinda like how the built up Hogan slamming Andre. 

Andre would maaaaybe get the Khali push to start with. Depends on how big the French wrestling market is for Vince to exploit.

Then he'd be dancing in a Tag Team with R-Truth & having an on/off again relationship with Nikki ASH over their shared interest in super hero pets*

*Watch Rock's new project please! We're trying to get him back for Mania!

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6 hours ago, Wyld Samurai said:

Re: Ronnie Garvin

Y'all act like Tommy Rich doesnt exist.

You can make the case for Rich at least, given he was crazy over in Georgia, way more than Garvin was in Mid-Atlactic and the main difference being Crockett/Runnels were basically booking the World title from late 85 and basically giving NWA members the the crumbs to book Flair onward versus Rich getting an unapproved NWA Committee reign.

If they had Garvin making defenses against other contenders upto Starrcade (i.e. no more Flair matches save for tags to build to the Thanksgiving match) then Ronnie could be more than footnote champion. Hell, if Crockett hadn't been bookingthe Freebirds as fuckin faces I woulda loved a Garv v. Gordy match

James

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14 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Damn, I forgot all about that heel run.

Personally, I don’t consider anything post-Crockett split truly “NWA.”  

That's because Ronnie was in like less than a handfull of matches after the turn. He did that match where Dusty and The Sheik teamed against Ronnie and Murdoch wherr *SHOCK* the Sheik turns on Dusty leading to Murdoch going face and then for like the next month NWA TV hypes Dusty/Garvin feuding and teasing Texas Outlaws v. Hart's stable but by then Garvin was in Purto Rico and the AWA

James

Edited by J.H.
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17 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Damn, I forgot all about that heel run.

Personally, I don’t consider anything post-Crockett split truly “NWA.”  

Same. How long ago did Shane Douglas cut that promo in ECW about the NWA being dead for years? I agreed with him then. 

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18 hours ago, Gordberg said:

This brings up a point that is damned interesting, to me at least:

Going by my experience, fandom in Japan, and pro wrestling fandom in particular, seems to be very very very different indeed from what it is in North America. I'm not any kind of educated expert in Japanese culture, but I've been living here almost 13 years, I have Japanese family, close Japanese friends, Japanese drinking buddies and training partners... I've taught literally dozens and dozens and dozens of high-level conversation students. Before Corona I spent a significant amount of my free time hanging out with pro wrestlers and crazy pro wrestling fans. Everyone who knows me knows I was involved in, and love, pro wrestling. I have had literally hundreds and hundreds of conversations about pro wrestling, and if those conversations involved any kind of judging (and particularly any kind of negativity or shit-talking) then I was talking to another "gaijin" wrestling fan. With Japanese fans, we talk about what we like. if they don't like something, they prefer not to get into it. Which fits in with my general impression of Japanese social life.

As far as I can tell, the lion's share of Japanese fandom is about appreciation rather than about judging, ranking, bad-mouthing... 

A couple of times, I have sat with a Japanese wrestling fan who was proficient in English, or with a student who is really into wrestling, and had them translate wrestling discussion on, like 2chan or something. It's a festival of agreement and positivity. Small sample size, but: Shockingly different from what you might find even here on DVDVR, where people tend to be pretty civil and open-minded but we also enjoy lots of disagreement and trash-talk and complaining about how we don't like stuff. 

TL/DR: In my experience, Japanese wrestling fans are marks for their favourite wrestling and favourite wrestlers, rather than being marks for their own hipsterish opinions about pro wrestling! You seem to score a lot more social points here by being enthusiastic about a thing rather than by being "sophisticated" or "refined" with regard to how you appreciate it. So, Japanese fans are more into "appreciating" than "judging."

Not saying it's better (or worse). It is definitely different. 

 

I love this. For me it’s the same with movies as I don’t have any IRL wrestling friends outside of lapsed thinking a few things is cool to be nice to me.  It with film nerds it’s the same way where so many people I know or even online spend more time arguing what a better movie is or how their idea of film theory is what superior cinema is. It can get tiresome and eye rolling. 
I love a great conversation with someone I disagree with or even just come to different conclusions than. My favorite film discussions over coffee have been with people that have a wildly different cinematic ideology or general opinions than me and us both appreciating the thought process going in. One friend viewed the silent films 20’s - very early sound musicals as Cinema’s peak and I’m much more of a slow cinema guy and we both would come away with a new appreciation of something new to us. He loved viewing films through a genre lens and I had fun with Auteur theory and we used our own vocabulary to have a fun and enlightening conversation.

Imagine that with wrestling. Which we often do here, but so much elsewhere is just shooting down other’s thoughts. “Oh you like ____?” “That style of wrestling is boring.” “So-and-so is the catalos of the degradation of the sport!” Why not, “so, tell me how to appreciate _____?” “Why is so-and-so GOAT?” Etc.

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I'm kind of obsessing over what the American wrestling landscape will look like in a few years, given the drastically different approaches to talent development WWE and AEW are now employing. A common criticism of old vets and WWE wrestlers for years has been that indy wrestlers script the majority of a match, rather than "calling it in the ring."

Is that about to reverse? Are the non-wrestlers and non-wrestling fans WWE wants to push through NXT going to have the slightest idea of how to improv or react when something unexpected happens in the ring? Are agents going to have script nearly everything for them?

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The general rule was the veteran would call it, so the rookie could learn how to call matches. So now that that's not happening, nobody is learning how to do it, so it'll become a lost art (if it isn't one already) But apparently in WWE, it's so overproduced that, if the wrestlers and the agent come up with a match story that is based in the face selling a lot early, there's every chance that once they get into the ring and start telling that story, the ref will get a voice in his earpiece saying the face is selling too much early. So, possibly on the main roster they are learning how to improvise live on telly.

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1 hour ago, AxB said:

The general rule was the veteran would call it, so the rookie could learn how to call matches.

It used to be more that the heel called the match because the heel was in control of pace of the match. Of course, the heel was often the more veteran of the two anyway, since babyfaces were traditionally younger wrestlers.

"Veteran calls the match" is a more recent thing, if I'm not mistaken.

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22 hours ago, The Natural said:

Some wrestlers are great as babyfaces while others are better as a heel. Fewer still are great at both. Of those I'd say: Bryan Danielson going from the Yes Movement as beloved face to hated heel as The New Daniel Bryan, Eddie Guerrero, Bret Hart, Terry Funk and Steve Austin.

Would you add Sami ? He was kinda like Kofi in the Indies. I couldn't imagine him as a heel before his WWE run.

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Savage falls into this as well, Hell I think the only reason they booked Savage and Steamboat against each other was because Savage was getting cheered on house shows so they needed someone it was going to be impossible for Savage to get cheered against and steamboat had just come off hot from feuds with Muraco and Roberts

James

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18 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

Would you add Sami ? He was kinda like Kofi in the Indies. I couldn't imagine him as a heel before his WWE run.

 

11 minutes ago, J.H. said:

Savage falls into this as well, Hell I think the only reason they booked Savage and Steamboat against each other was because Savage was getting cheered on house shows so they needed someone it was going to be impossible for Savage to get cheered against and steamboat had just come off hot from feuds with Muraco and Roberts

James

I second both of those suggestions for wrestlers great as a face and heel. Cheers.

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22 hours ago, RRR said:

Same. How long ago did Shane Douglas cut that promo in ECW about the NWA being dead for years? I agreed with him then. 

"Organization that died, RIP, seven years ago!" If I remember the promo correctly? The promo was in '94, so '87-'88 as far as he was concerned.

Edited by Shartnado
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