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December 2021 Wrestling Discussion


Kang

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Here's a navel-gazer for ya:

If you were in Ronnie Garvin's shoes in 1987, knowing what we all know now, would you have said yes to the world title run?

I mean, for the rest of your life you could legitimately claim that you were NWA World Heavyweight Champion, that you beat Flair for the belt, that you main evented Starrcade going up against Survivor Series... You could have a picture of yourself wearing the 20 pounds of gold on your living room wall as a conversation piece...

Or if you are a more humble person, you'd still have that memory of the crowd marking out and all the boys coming to the ring to celebrate with you.

But, at the same time, you'd be remembered as (one of) the worst NWA champion(s) of all time, everybody who really knows wrestling would be well aware that it was kind of a nothing reign just to set up a Flair win at Starrcade...

I'd guess most of us would have said yes. Probably jumped at the chance. Better to have been a placeholder world champion for two months than never have been there at all, right?

And Garvin was 42 at that time, so it must have felt like that was his one and only chance at it.

I remember my girlfriend at the time really marking out for Garvin's win. I think the build to it was pretty darned good, with Garvin training so hard. They may have built some "one and only chance real-life feeling into it as well. 

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Garvin was still on the road, just not defending the title after week 2 or 3 of his reign (he defended against Flair the night after he won and a few more times after. He was still on the road as well, having worked at the Meadowlands War Games match a night or 2 before Starrcade)

James

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The Rey Mysterio conversation has made me think about how trying to judge an overall GOAT in wrestling is nearly impossible because it's such a multifaceted art form that there are so many individuals who are the best at you could ask who is the GOAT Babyface worker (where Rey would have a great resume to be high on someone's list), heel worker, tag worker, tag team, high flyer, brawler, technician, talker, main event worker, midcard worker, job guy/putting someone over, squash match worker, trios worker, charisma, psychology, money draw, working from underneath, deathmatch worker, etc...

And pretty much every category would have so much discussion it's crazy. The reason Eddie Guerrero and Terry Funk are guys on my GOAT list consistently is because they would have a good chance of being top ten in a lot of the different possible categories. 

I think the only way to settle this Rey debate is for @RIPPA to do a March Madness style tournament for every possible category and then one ultimate tournament to crown the GOAT, it's the only reasonable solution. 

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44 minutes ago, Sublime said:

The Rey Mysterio conversation has made me think about how trying to judge an overall GOAT in wrestling is nearly impossible because it's such a multifaceted art form that there are so many individuals who are the best at you could ask who is the GOAT Babyface worker (where Rey would have a great resume to be high on someone's list), heel worker, tag worker, tag team, high flyer, brawler, technician, talker, main event worker, midcard worker, job guy/putting someone over, squash match worker, trios worker, charisma, psychology, money draw, working from underneath, deathmatch worker, etc...

And pretty much every category would have so much discussion it's crazy. The reason Eddie Guerrero and Terry Funk are guys on my GOAT list consistently is because they would have a good chance of being top ten in a lot of the different possible categories. 

I think the only way to settle this Rey debate is for @RIPPA to do a March Madness style tournament for every possible category and then one ultimate tournament to crown the GOAT, it's the only reasonable solution. 

It's not like we didn't go through a years long exercise with GWE a few years ago, with another one happening in a few years. And you're right, a lot of the discussion wasn't about specific wrestlers but about the criteria and what should be valued most.

With my list, the top guys were generally very multifaceted and I liked to see them in a number of different roles because it was about gaining assurance and understanding. To me, there was a cap for people who I couldn't be sure of in certain ways.

Here's the post I used to push for Bockwinkel, for instance:

Spoiler

There are so many things that Nick Bockwinkel did so well that it's hard to even know where to start. What I'd like to do, to begin, is list out his range, a number of roles that he was effective in playing, and that he was able to wrestle good to great matches (some all-timers) while achieving. This is in no order:

1. Bumping, stooging heel for aging legend (Vs Verne, Mad Dog, Crusher, Baron)

2. Bumping, stooging vulnerable champion for up and and coming Ace babyface (Vs Hogan)

3. Reluctantly cheered champion holding the line vs a foreign threat (Vs Al-Kassie)

4. Comedy kingpin with a bunch of goons vs Super-babyfaces (with Heenan family Vs. Andre and Hogan)

5. Heel champion Ace vs technical up and coming babyfaces (vs Rheingans)

6. Tag role of the same (With Stevens vs High Flyers)

7. Southern tag heel (w/Saito vs Gagnes or Hennigs, or High-flyers)

8. Confident heel champ vs established technical opponent (vs Martel)

9. Same as a heel challenger establishing said new babyface champ.

10. Vulnerable but dangerous heel champion against deadly brawler (vs Wahoo)

11. Travelling champ who underestimates local hero (vs Chavo)

12. Snobby outsider champ who DOESN'T underestimate local hero but has to have a number of varied matches with him without losing the title (vs Lawler)

13. Fiery babyface wanting revenge (crazy sprint vs Zbyszko)

14. John Wayne (vs Hansen)

15. Super technical in front of a Japanese audience (vs Funk and vs Robinson)

16. Aging, cagey veteran trying to survive against a young babyface slowly surpassing him (vs Hennig)

17. US Supermatch that has to end in a draw (vs. Flair)

18. Travelling heel champ stooging big for the local hero while staying credible (vs JYD)

19. Desperate heel up against monsters (the clips we have vs Andre or Ladd)

20. Very strong shorter match TV worker during the Showboat era (vs. Debeers)

And that's what we have from maybe 76-86, when he around 40 to just over 50. He spent decades of his career as a babyface. And there are more. I just picked twenty different in-ring functions that he had to do and had to do well, many of them calling upon different skills and talents, that involve someone actively wrestling differently. I could have given more examples of matches for almost every category too, with almost all of them being very good to great. That, to me is amazing. The only other people who would come close to this are #1 contenders, and almost all of those benefit from us having much more of their physical prime on tape or from working more broadly in multiple territories (though Bock, of course did. We just don't have a ton of that on tape; most of what we do is great).

He was able to accomplish this through deeply and thoroughly understanding pro wrestling and storytelling, through engaging the crowd, through knowing when to give and when to take, knowing how to maximize moments and momentum, to fully committing to his role at all times. He was incredible at portraying emotion in matches, jubilant when causing punishment and terrified when getting overwhelmed. He refused to let the crowd dictate what he was doing, but instead forced them into line with what was best for them and the match, adapting but never surrendering ("You're boring them Martel!" being my favorite single wrestling moment I've seen in the last five years, maybe?).

Everything had purpose. There are wrestlers, great wrestlers, who can string more-or-less unrelated chapters together so that their matches are better than the sum of their parts, so that they make a symbolic, thematic, more or less satisfying whole, but Bockwinkel was able to relate the chapters to one another so that he never had to do that. There wasn't that need for symbolism because the text stood on its own. It was finding the perfect moment to turn the babyface's offensive rush into a King of the Mountain heat segment, or how to start countering one bit of bodypart work with the opposite equivalent, and so on. There's no sixty minute match I've ever seen which tells so involved a story as Hennig vs Bockwinkel. I've never been satisfied with the idea that wrestling isn't a good medium for storytelling, because I've seen it. That match shows that it's possible, and not just over ten minutes but over sixty, and that it can be the most compelling thing in the world. He created stories that mattered to people, that resonated, that moved them, and he made it seem so flawless and so natural. There was so much variation, too. I can barely wrap my head around how he managed it.

And of course the fundamentals were there. He bumps around the ring like a pinball for Verne Gagne. His long-term limb selling is exceptional, and he had a way of selling fatigue from a long match in the finishing stretch like almost no one else. I believe that selling is the key to creating meaning in wrestling and it's hard not to watch his performances and think that he'd been through a war and that maybe, just maybe, he was going to lose that title (and if he did, the babyface would have EARNED it). His matwork was wonderful, holds and counters, perfect timing, great facial expressions and trash talk, and screaming in pain when he was on the wrong end of it. His strikes were snug. His offense was varied. He moved in and out of holds so well in the opening segment of a match; there was such flow to it. He cheated extremely well (and man was he a great southern tag heel), and as a babyface, he could both garner sympathy and swallow the heel alive with righteous fury. That's the thing. he's not just a smart worker. He's a total package. At age 45, he could still outFunk prime Funk, outFlair prime Flair and even, at times, outHansen prime Hansen. But, almost always, he only goes to that level when it makes sense to go there, when the value is there, when the needs of the match calls for it.

I don't think it's a big spoiler. He's my #1. There are amazing wrestlers on my list in the #2-9 spots, some of the most talented, skilled, brilliant, sound, varied people imaginable, with hundreds of great matches to prove their worth. I just can't imagine any of them in that #1 slot instead of Bockwinkel.

 

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10 hours ago, Gordberg said:

If you were in Ronnie Garvin's shoes in 1987, knowing what we all know now, would you have said yes to the world title run?

of course. being NWA champion > not being NWA champion. whether he got that championship money during his reign (probably not), he could subsequently charge more for appearances due to being a former champ. plus, he will always have a place in the history books.

as for him being the "worst NWA champ",  i disagree. I doubt Rob Conway was outstanding as champ. And "Colorado Kid" Mike Rapada, who traded the belt with Sabu? clearly inferior. And really most of the champs between JCP and TNA are pretty forgettable (Severn, Corino, and a handful of others are excluded obviously). and post-TNA, pre-Corgan doesn't have the best history either. 

3 hours ago, The Natural said:
Never gets old.

never. love that!

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I think the GOAT discussion is hard because wrestling is one of the few artforms where everybody kind of does what they do the way they do it. Rey Mysterio and Mick Foley are both all time greats, but for completely and totally different reasons. They aren't even trying to do the same things. They could be in the same match and they put together something great in collaboration, but no one is going to mistake Foley's style with Mysterio's style. So how do you really decide which is better? 

Liger and Mysterio is a great conversation because they are the kings of their specific weight division, but they are still completely different. If Liger was 20 lbs. heavier he wouldn't have to change anything to be a credible heavyweight. Honestly if he was 200 lbs. heavier his moveset wouldn't even change much. He probably wouldn't have come up with the shooting star press,  but he could still Liger bomb and fisherman buster people into oblivion. There really was no limitations to his style. He's pretty much the proverbial 5-tool player,  except he was a Jr Heavyweight, so his opportunities were limited. 

Mysterio could probably adapt,  but his entire style is based on the fact that he was 150 lbs. If he was 200 lbs. he would have developed a completely different style. The thing about Mysterio that makes me rank his work so high is that it's a ridiculous level of difficulty. He had to figure out how to do everything with everybody in a way that kept himself and his opponent credible. He can't credibly power bomb anybody on any roster that he's been a part of. He can't trade strikes, he can't throw suplexes, and he is always one big move away from losing. He knows that, and has built an all time great career out of exploiting his limitations. He's kind of a 1 or 2 tool player,  who made all his weaknesses into strengths ask the way to the hall of fame. 

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The subjectivity of artistic expression and the human tendency to create hierarchies and categories anyway is why the discussion usually turns toward how much of a draw a wrestler was, PPV buys, ratings, etc. I think Matt’s criteria with the Bockwinkel example of how many different contexts and roles a wrestler excelled at is a pretty good model for how you could determine a GOAT, but nothing can account for taste and there’s no right or wrong answer. 

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1 minute ago, Octopus said:

I second Bockwinkel being neat.

I bring to the table: Andre the Giant. So good and now underrated. 

I don't disagree, because you'd have to be insane to, but I just want to say this: I think Andre benefitted tremendously from 1) being able to traverse the territory system and 2) actually being booked like an attraction in said towns.

If Andre rose from the dead and walked through the doors of Titan Tower tomorrow, how long until he's dressed like Baby New Year? 

My point being, an attraction like Andre couldn't happen today with the nature of weekly TV and two big companies, so I don't know if he's so much underrated as he was (rightfully) not over-exposed.

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3 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I don't disagree, because you'd have to be insane to, but I just want to say this: I think Andre benefitted tremendously from 1) being able to traverse the territory system and 2) actually being booked like an attraction in said towns.

If Andre rose from the dead and walked through the doors of Titan Tower tomorrow, how long until he's dressed like Baby New Year? 

My point being, an attraction like Andre couldn't happen today with the nature of weekly TV and two big companies, so I don't know if he's so much underrated as he was (rightfully) not over-exposed.

double post because i want to completely agree. 

We've seen Andre in WWE-land. He went by the name Big Show. and despite being a multi-time champion, he was always an afterthought and barely more than a midcarder.  Plus, Andre didn't speak English very well, so him trying to recite scripted WWE promos would just be painful. He'd be a more mobile Great Khali-level. (and i love Andre too, but current WWE would have no idea how to use him. at all.)

Edited by twiztor
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I remember when the board did a poll for this in like 200--2001 one. I had harley Race at #1 and Either Liger or Jumbo at #2. All 3 would be in ,y top ten but #1 is supplanted by Terry Funk the mroe I watch him with Bock as my #2.

James

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29 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I don't disagree, because you'd have to be insane to, but I just want to say this: I think Andre benefitted tremendously from 1) being able to traverse the territory system and 2) actually being booked like an attraction in said towns.

If Andre rose from the dead and walked through the doors of Titan Tower tomorrow, how long until he's dressed like Baby New Year? 

My point being, an attraction like Andre couldn't happen today with the nature of weekly TV and two big companies, so I don't know if he's so much underrated as he was (rightfully) not over-exposed.

Andre would be in Omos's boots and spot if he were alive today.

I mean that might not be a bad thing. He's been booked as a monster that no one can touch. Unless he's done one elsewhere, Omos has yet to leave his feet in every single match he's had on RAW. Not one bump. It might be something special for the guy who finally knocks him off his feet kinda like how the built up Hogan slamming Andre. 

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8 minutes ago, J.H. said:

I remember when the board did a poll for this in like 200--2001 one. I had harley Race at #1 and Either Liger or Jumbo at #2. All 3 would be in ,y top ten but #1 is supplanted by Terry Funk the mroe I watch him with Bock as my #2.

James

For the record, Funk was my #2. Very similar versatility argument. Comparable footage concerns that ultimately don’t matter. Maybe the best seller of all time on top of it.  

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25 minutes ago, twiztor said:

if somebody said Tatanka was the greatest wrestler of all time, they would be objectively wrong.

I tried to explain this earlier in the thread, but there aren't any right answers,  but there are plenty of wrong answers. There is a group of people in the discussion,  and if one of those people is your GOAT, we can argue about it but you're not necessarily wrong. Then there is everyone else. I think a lot of these type of conversations get watered down with nostalgia or regional bias, but for me we need to recognize the cream that rises to the top (shout out to Randy Savage). I think it's kind of like hall of fame discussions. Baseball has the steroid thing that waters it down. Football is kind of the best,  but I think it's getting to the point that we put more good for a long time players in over truly great players with short runs. Basketball puts in everyone who had a decent career. These oddities should be a recognition of true greatness. Not goodness. Not longevity. Not because they were a fan favorite. Greatness and greatness alone should be the criteria. If there is not a moment of your career where someone could credibly discuss you as the best in the world at what you do,  you're probably not in my discussion. There is something noble about being really good at something for a really long time, but that doesn't make you immortal. This discussion is for the immortal(I have strong opinions about former WWF/WCW/WWE Champion Terry Bollea which you should PM me about. But I wanted to express them here too because I can't help myself, who is in the discussion nonetheless).

 

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I guess I find it interesting, but don’t overly put the time machine arguments. Because it’s the same argument that was used on smaller guys of today being placed in territories that would likely not book them well, if at all. The time and place someone exists is a very important part of why and how someone was special.

WWE/F is so weird that it’s tough putting anyone there and expecting success, but bless the Stone Colds and Cenas that do. Dustin is great and they had him a wild gimmick, he made it work but he wasn’t Dustin. Andre could be Big Show but better, maybe? It’s a funny thing to think about. Big Show had great Brock Lesnar matches and moments, I’d love to see Andre vs Brock, that would be nuts to think about. 

Andre had such a special way he used his size. He wasn’t just large, but he knew how to be large. Beyond just look, he was one of the few people that I enjoyed fixating me eyes on the entire time he’s on the screen. Very special.

Edit add-on:

Arn Anderson would be booked as Festus

Edited by Octopus
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1 minute ago, Matt D said:

For the record, Funk was my #2. Very similar versatility argument. Comparable footage concerns that ultimately don’t matter. Maybe the best seller of all time on top of it.  

Kawada is my best seller of all time. His ability to sell attrition is masterful. He is one of the few workers who is kind of constantly selling.  He sells individual lives as well as anyone,  but his ability to sell the accumulated damage he's accrued throughout a match is what makes him the best of the four pillars. He is also able to sell damage in a way that made him look stronger, not weaker. His ability to fight through the adversity and still feel like a much of a bad ass as he does when he's dominant is something I don't think I've ever seen anyone else do over a career. Steve Austin did it once and it's perhaps the most important moment in American wrestling history. 

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Funk is my #1 seller of all time because as he aged his stooging kind of became more... age appropriate? I feel that is horribly ageist in wording but most you get my point.

Kawada remains in my top 5. Danielson is #6 with Eddie edging him out at 7. I think my top 5 right now I got it as:

1. Terry Funk
2. Nick Bockwinkel
3.Jushin Liger
4. Jumbo Tsuruta
5. Toshiaki Kawada

Ask me again in a month and I'll have watched a million different clips of Verne Gagne or dug a treasure trove of Fritz or David Von Erich matches but pretty sure thje ttop 5 stays solid

James

 

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