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Dynamite - 10/27/2021


Dolfan in NYC

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9 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Dan Lambert is the promo equivalent of a spot monkey. He races to his next line so fast just to get all his shit in. He doesn't let any of his statements have time to sink in. He doesn't do wrestling promos. He does old man yelling at clouds monologues. He thinks he's coming off like fired up Ric Flair when in reality he's coming off like an old timey auctioneer that's mildly annoyed people keep bidding in increments of one penny.

And he's the most over heel in the company. ?‍♂️

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5 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

I always hate "MMA guy is a real fighter, not like you fake wrestlers" on wrestling shows. It's counterproductive and useless imo.

Lambert is a good promo, but I hate the basic concept.

I dont mind if a MMA guy says that because they will always be a heel in that case and It's a common mentality that wrestling fans will boo.

However, I hate when commentators throw out little comments like "oh boy that Jake Hagger, he's undefeated in MMA so you know he's a real tough dude ladies and gentleman". They don't seem to realise it makes everyone else look bad when they say that.

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I’ve already answered how you solve the PW vs MMA quandary: present MMA as pure but grounded athletes against charismatic, rugged will-do-anything-use-anything street smart PWers. Table spots; high flying lucha spots. Having an overweight 50 year old who is prone to wearing face paint not out of place at a kids Halloween carnival bowling around the place chasing away former UFC Championship contenders however is not said way to do it, and as noted on previous page this particular angle is vapid and just going nowhere. It’s utterly meaningless.

Edited by A_K
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8 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

I always hate "MMA guy is a real fighter, not like you fake wrestlers" on wrestling shows.

4 hours ago, eikerir said:

I dont mind if a MMA guy says that because they will always be a heel in that case and It's a common mentality that wrestling fans will boo.

However, I hate when commentators throw out little comments like "oh boy that Jake Hagger, he's undefeated in MMA so you know he's a real tough dude ladies and gentleman". They don't seem to realise it makes everyone else look bad when they say that.

yeah, overall i agree that is a terrible way to present it. 

my preference would be that they present MMA and pro wrestling as two different, but equal, disciplines. Much like in the martial arts, you can train in karate, or jiu jitsu, or muay thai, or sumo, etc. etc. Having Pro Wrestling be just another "martial art" alleviates the real vs. fake battle. it rarely works that way, but a man can dream.....

2 hours ago, A_K said:

I’ve already answered how you solve the PW vs MMA quandary: present MMA as pure but grounded athletes against charismatic, rugged will-do-anything-use-anything street smart PWers. Table spots; high flying lucha spots. Having an overweight 50 year old who is prone to wearing face paint not out of place at a kids Halloween carnival bowling around the place chasing away former UFC Championship contenders however is not said way to do it, and as noted on previous page this particular angle is vapid and just going nowhere. It’s utterly meaningless.

all of this too.

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I think a good way to play it is have the MMA guys come in talking their shit but get stymied by very pro wrestling things they don't gameplan for: aerial moves, flash pins, double teams, outside interference, etc.  

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Exactly.  Just treat pro wrestling as another martial art.  A martial art where it's okay to kick a guy in the balls if the ref doesn't see it, to be sure, but a martial art nonetheless.

To this end, I need to see a spot where a MMA guy gets a bright idea to climb to the top rope and then is absolutely terrified and lost, with no idea what to do next. 

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9 minutes ago, Zimbra said:

I think a good way to play it is have the MMA guys come in talking their shit but get stymied by very pro wrestling things they don't gameplan for: aerial moves, flash pins, double teams, outside interference, etc.  

Yep,  and vice versa.  Have an MMA guy come in and land knock out blows  and/or an inescapable submission,  then have s pro wrestler beat him with suplexes, power bombs, and flying elbow drops. It can be done and done well,  but we have never actually seen it done very well. The biggest issue with the ATT group is that the MMA guys aren't the people who need to get over. Unless they're going to be around for the long haul,  they need to focus on getting Scorpio Sky and Ethan Page over.  They aren't doing that very well at all,  they look like chumps who need "real fighters" to come in and help them win, instead of guys who are using their MMA friends to train them into killers. 

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We do have a lot of "data" pertaining to MMA guys in pro wrestling. There are templates. Relative to his influence, it's weird Ken Shamrock doesn't get talked about more but the majority of it comes from NJPW trying to strangle itself via the cold clutches of Inoki-ism. We can look back and figure out what works and what doesn't. Burying your pro-wrestlers underneath a "superior" discipline is fucking stupid. Expecting MMA fighters to instantly "get" the little parts of pro wrestling that hold it together is fucking stupid. Putting relatively intelligent fighters who can work their style w/ wrestlers who posses some legit skills, a la what was done with Josh Barnett & Bas Rutten? Ok, yeah. That can work. Presenting MMA guys as fucking nutjob stiff shooter heels who don't know and don't care about the rules of pro-wrestling? High risk, high reward.

I think the Year of Rousey went exactly how WWE wanted it to go. She made money, drew press, had good matches and cemented a top babyface in Becky. You'd have to scale that back to a midcard thing if you ran it with PvZ, but if AEW is too cool to use that blueprint, hey, try showing Jorge Masvidal a bunch of Kazunari Murakami tapes and see what kind of hell you can unleash on Earth.

Edited by John E. Dynamite
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Many excellent points made here. I hate MMA in my wrestling too, but if it has to be done, there's a way to straddle that line to make it more effective. It's the difference between something like "We're tougher because every match we have is a cage match!" vs. "We're tougher because you guys are actors and we fight for real!" 

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1 minute ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Many excellent points made here. I hate MMA in my wrestling too, but if it has to be done, there's a way to straddle that line to make it more effective. It's the difference between something like "We're tougher because every match we have is a cage match!" vs. "We're tougher because you guys are actors and we fight for real!" 

Yes,  the MMA guys cannot be pushed like they are superior to the pro wrestlers, but as dangerous in a different way. An MMA guy may knock you out with one big strike or catch you in a tricky submission,  but are out of their element when it comes to big pro wrestling slams and the attrition based submissions of pro wrestling. MMA guys aren't used to defending against figure 4 leg locks or fighting with the damage a figure 4 leg can cause. All of these things just need to be presented well to get over. Pro wrestling is great,  because you can get anything over if you present it correctly. The issue is that it's the part most wrestling companies have forgotten.

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19 minutes ago, Matt D said:

I guess one thing that was done well with Shamrock was how heels would use heel tactics and get under his skin so that he'd snap and get DQed.

Big agree here. Doing just that with the Rock in the WM XIV IC title match played a massive role in Shamrock's popularity, IMO. It was almost like a more-modern Hulk-up, but with the added storytelling bonus of looking real strong in a loss.

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Yeah, to be clear, I don't mind MMA guys in wrestling. I hate the "MMA guys are better than wrestlers" thing. Even from a heel.

Hell, I was pushing for WWE to use Rousey and Shayna and Sonya to start a women's Battlearts/UWF-i style division.

But if I have to see JDS and Jericho, I want it to be a battle of two aging former world champions.

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3 minutes ago, Wyld Samurai said:

Pro Wrestling Shamrock was just always a little weird to me. He totally changed his physique for wrestling and I felt he lost a little bit of his edge. I also always wanted to see him do more hooking than the boring paint by the numbers pro wrestling match.

Frigging Angle almost never took it to the mat in his peak run.

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5 minutes ago, Wyld Samurai said:

Pro Wrestling Shamrock was just always a little weird to me. He totally changed his physique for wrestling and I felt he lost a little bit of his edge. I also always wanted to see him do more hooking than the boring paint by the numbers pro wrestling match.

Lol, Ken Shamrock is 10X the pro wrestlers than he was as an MMA fighter. He is a pioneer and all that, but he was a only a decent submission wrestler. He would beat strikers with no real submission skills,  but he get his ass kicked by pretty much everyone else. He should have stuck around in WWF, because he was kind of a joke once he went back to MMA. I actually really like how WWF handled him at the time. He was treated as dangerous as hell to everybody on the roster, but he was also put into matches like "The Lion's Den," where it was his MMA style vs Owen Hart's technical wrestling style. 

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It's so weird now to look back on how early MMA was "which discipline/style is better?" before guys even really started training in multiple skill sets. Boxing vs Judo! Wrestling vs kickboxing! Etc

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I liked how Shamrock was presented in his WWF run. I guess that kind of predates MMA being MMA. UFC was really just considered martial arts toughman contests at that point, and not a skilled sporting endeavor of it's own. But Shamrock was presented as a pro wrestler. One who would snap and beat the shit out of you. But he wrested like a wrestler, because this is wrestling.

I feel Ronda Rousey was presented in this same way. She wrestled like a pro wrestler. Sure she had a dangerous submission finisher. And her strikes were protected. But she wasn't rolling on the mat doing all this boring (yeah I said it) submission grappling that doesn't follow a story path. She used pro wrestling psychology and was pretty damn good as a pro wrestler.

But my MMA in wrestling gripe is based on the presentation. Anyone really billed as an MMA guy plays by a different set of rules. They don't really tell stories or use traditional ring psychology. Because in MMA you don't have to make sense of how you win. You just try to win. So that piece of the puzzle is always lost on them. Now pro wrestlers who use a lot of MMA transitions or submissions works for me, because they incorporate the tradition pro wrestling psychology in it's use.

For reference I have never really watched any pseudo worked shoot UWFi style promotions. Maybe there's a presentation there that works better that I just haven't seen. But the normal way it's presented with an outside MMA person in America just grinds my gears. They are all of a sudden more dangerous that a pro wrestler why? In kayfabe wrestling is pretty much what MMA is. It's unfiltered fighting with no specific discipline rules like a Jujitsu or Boxing. So why are MMA guys anymore dangerous than a pro wrestler (in kayfabe)?

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10 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I liked how Shamrock was presented in his WWF run. I guess that kind of predates MMA being MMA. UFC was really just considered martial arts toughman contests at that point, and not a skilled sporting endeavor of it's own. But Shamrock was presented as a pro wrestler. One who would snap and beat the shit out of you. But he wrested like a wrestler, because this is wrestling.

I feel Ronda Rousey was presented in this same way. She wrestled like a pro wrestler. Sure she had a dangerous submission finisher. And her strikes were protected. But she wasn't rolling on the mat doing all this boring (yeah I said it) submission grappling that doesn't follow a story path. She used pro wrestling psychology and was pretty damn good as a pro wrestler.

But my MMA in wrestling gripe is based on the presentation. Anyone really billed as an MMA guy plays by a different set of rules. They don't really tell stories or use traditional ring psychology. Because in MMA you don't have to make sense of how you win. You just try to win. So that piece of the puzzle is always lost on them. Now pro wrestlers who use a lot of MMA transitions or submissions works for me, because they incorporate the tradition pro wrestling psychology in it's use.

For reference I have never really watched any pseudo worked shoot UWFi style promotions. Maybe there's a presentation there that works better that I just haven't seen. But the normal way it's presented with an outside MMA person in America just grinds my gears. They are all of a sudden more dangerous that a pro wrestler why? In kayfabe wrestling is pretty much what MMA is. It's unfiltered fighting with no specific discipline rules like a Jujitsu or Boxing. So why are MMA guys anymore dangerous than a pro wrestler (in kayfabe)?

Mostly unrelated, but definitely watch the Vader/Takada matches someday. 

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