AEW - OCT 2021

[supremebve]

On 10/27/2021 at 8:06 PM, chriskbrown50 said:

PVZ could be a good pro wrestler; lots of public appeal. She is to me possibly a Trish Stratus star. Massive following on Instagram. She could be as good as she wants frankly. While not the bad ass that Rhonda nor Shayna are, she has some legit skills. But she is been overmatched every time out - her skills are not at the level she is fighting. But she is willing to get into the cage/ring. I think it is her most logical is pro wrestling if she wants

Shayna is a legit MMA fighter with great skills. Her youtube videos are really good.

Paige VanZant had a significantly more successful MMA career than Shayna Baszler.  VanZant is a plus athlete, who has some legitimate UFC wins.  Her biggest issue is that all her skills are just surface level, as soon as someone figured out what she was trying to do, there was never a plan b.  I've watched thousands and thousands of MMA fights over the years and I haven't seen a single Shayna Baszler win. Baszler was not even close to winning a fight in the UFC.  I think that she's a great professional wrestler, but she was not a very good fighter.  Her best win was against a young Alexis Davis, but Alexis Davis came back to choke her unconscious in the rematch. 

[AxB]

Shayna Baszler's career peak came at a time when Women's MMA was at a really low level. Consequently, by the time the competition level increased, and the number of potential opponents was actually decent-sized, she'd already lost a step. And before that, in the wild west era, there was a lot of late notice, out of weight class, fight hurt or don't fight at all situations. She's in that Randy Couture spot where her record doesn't reflect her respect level.

[Peck]

Dude, have you SEEN Shayna lately?  She will break your arm in half as long as you're next to the ring steps, hold it at the right angle and don't try to move it out of the way. Devastating. 

[J.T.]

2 hours ago, supremebve said:

Paige VanZant had a significantly more successful MMA career than Shayna Baszler. 

Both of those ladies had 60-40 ish records when they competed in MMA.  Paige has never held a title while Shayla has held titles in minor promotions and she's an amateur wrestling gold medalist.

When they were competing in MMA, both ladies were gatekeepers at best.  Good enough to hold off contenders but not elite enough to earn a major championship.

So no, comparison wise I wouldn't say that Paige had a significantly more successful MMA career than Shayna did.

2 hours ago, supremebve said:

.I think that she's a great professional wrestler, but she was not a very good fighter. 

Shayna was a pretty weak striker, but she was an excellent grappling specialist and one of the few fighters that has an MMA submission win via twister (Baszler has two)

Edited October 29, 2021 by J.T.

[John E. Dynamite]

PVZ's best win was against Felice Herring. No other fighter she has a UFC win over has a winning MMA record.

Paige is/was an acceptable low-to-mid level UFC fighter, I think the issue was that she wanted to be paid at a higher level due to her media exposure + ability to draw views n' clicks. So Dana throws her in there with Amanda Ribas (who was always going to do a homicide on her) on the last fight of Paige's contract just to devalue her, doesn't re-sign her, Paige can't get a good deal worked out with Bellator, she ends up doing Bare Knuckle Boxing despite having an awful skill set for it, goes 0-2, here we are.

Edited October 29, 2021 by John E. Dynamite

[J.T.]

I wouldn't say that Paige is a low-mid level fighter.   I just think that she had some work ethic issues that downgraded her stock before she reached her full potential. 

1 hour ago, John E. Dynamite said:

Paige can't get a good deal worked out with Bellator, she ends up doing Bare Knuckle Boxing despite having an awful skill set for it, goes 0-2, here we are.

Paige is a poor fit for BNB because she knows she's cute and doesn't like getting hit in the face.

Edited October 29, 2021 by J.T.

[J.T.]

1 hour ago, John E. Dynamite said:

PVZ's best win was against Felice Herring. No other fighter she has a UFC win over has a winning MMA record.

I agree. 

I think the best showcase of her skills was with Bec Rawlings.  Paige melted Bec in the second round like she was nothing and Paige was starting to look like a serious contender at 7-2.  Then it all went bad somehow.

Edited October 29, 2021 by J.T.

[supremebve]

I've been watching MMA for a long ass time and understand the context of Baszler's career.  She was average to pretty good at the time and got worse as time passed.  Her best skill is grappling, but she wasn't great at it.  She's a legitimately bad striker on top of not being very durable.  Seriously, if they would have matched up Baszler vs. Gina Carano, do you guys think Baszler would have had a chance in that fight?  She was someone who was there in the beginning, but she wasn't the female Royce Gracie.  She wasn't even a Mark Coleman, who was one dimensional, but brought something new to the table.  She was like Jerry Bohlander or someone like that.  She was there, had some wins, but didn't really beat anyone good.  Paige VanZant does not have a single bad loss.  She fought better competition, and only lost to legitimately good fighters.  Her worst loss is to Jessica Rose-Clark, who generally fights 20 lbs. heavier than her.  Paige isn't great, but she was fighting against high level modern MMA fighters and would probably still be doing exactly that if she could be paid more.  Baszler fought worse competition and spent her prime trading wins and losses to fighters who were average at the time.  By the time she started fighting even decent competition she wasn't just losing she was being blown out.  

3 minutes ago, J.T. said:

Paige is a poor fit for BNB because she knows she's cute and doesn't like getting hit in the face.

I disagree with this.  Paige's best attribute as a fighter is that she is very durable.  She's a really good athlete for women's MMA, and has some skill, but her idea of strategy is, "hit her really hard."  If that doesn't work, she is all out of ideas.

[tbarrie]

55 minutes ago, J.T. said:

Shayna was a pretty weak striker, but she was an excellent grappling specialist and one of the few fighters that has an MMA submission win via twister (Baszler has two).

…are we talking about the Milton Bradley game Twister? I could see somebody tapping out to that.

[Elsalvajeloco]

41 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

So Dana throws her in there with Amanda Ribas (who was always going to do a homicide on her) on the last fight of Paige's contract just to devalue her, doesn't re-sign her

Since Ribas is fighting this weekend, the UFC twitter account retweeted a video Ribas bending her arm like a pretzel. That was brutal. That was one of those Joe Silva type UFC burials.

Re: PVZ vs. Shayna's career

You guys have already made most of the points I was going to make. However, I would say that it's hard to compare those two since Shayna was basically a women's MMA pioneer and by 2013/2014 (when she was on TUF), her generation of women (think Julie Kedzie, Tara Larosa, Amanda Buckner, Kelly Kobold, Erin Toughill, etc.) were pretty much done. Shit, Gina Carano was after Shayna and she retired several years before Shayna did. Tonya Evinger lasted a little while longer, but when she got old, she got absolutely murdered at the end of her career. Roxy (Roxanne Modafferi) is somehow still around, but she ain't exactly setting the world on fire. She's a decent gatekeeper. If Ronda wasn't her homegirl, Shayna probably wouldn't have even been on TUF. IMO, PVZ had a decent career based on her obvious limitations.

[supremebve]

1 minute ago, tbarrie said:

…are we talking about the Milton Bradley game Twister? I could see somebody tapping out to that.

Honestly, the twister is about as pro wrestling looking of a submission as exists in MMA.  It's essentially twisting your spine in two different directions in the most painful way possible.  

[John E. Dynamite]

Exact same move. I don't want to hear any fussin'. And no, I couldn't find one of Osamu Nishimura doing it way smoother.

[J.T.]

56 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Honestly, the twister is about as pro wrestling looking of a submission as exists in MMA. 

Hopefully your pro wrasslin analogy wasn't there to imply that the level of skill it takes to secure a twister is negligible.  Your ground game has to be solid to apply these techniques to an opponent who obviously isn't going to let you just gain dominant position and bend his neck the wrong way.

It arguably takes just as much skill to make a work twister look hurty as it does to actually apply one and make somebody tap out too it.

Edited October 29, 2021 by J.T.

[Matt D]

Pfft, Evan Karagias could hit a Sky Twister Press and he wasn't skilled at all.

[The Natural]

53 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Honestly, the twister is about as pro wrestling looking of a submission as exists in MMA.  It's essentially twisting your spine in two different directions in the most painful way possible.  

Chan Sung Jung vs. Leonard Garcia II. Still satisfying as fuck: The first UFC Twister, getting the tapout in the last second and Jung getting robbed by the judges in the first fight.

Edited October 29, 2021 by The Natural

[J.T.]

3 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Pfft, Evan Karagias could hit a Sky Twister Press and he wasn't skilled at all.

That's just mean, Matt.

[Matt D]

2 minutes ago, J.T. said:

That's just mean, Matt.

November 1999 DVDVR 500

      411 Test
      412 Konnan
      413 Super Parka
      414 Switchblade
      415 Evan Koragous (sic)
      416 Pirata Morgan
      417 Masaji Aoyagi
      418 Junji Hirata
      419 Earl The Pearl
      420 Piolota Suicida

What the hell? I hope Aoyagi finds out about this.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Matt D

[twiztor]

3 hours ago, supremebve said:

 I've watched thousands and thousands of MMA fights over the years and I haven't seen a single Shayna Baszler win.

having also seen thousands of MMA fights, i had to check Wikipedia. Shayna's only win i've seen is vs. Sarah D'Alelio @ Invicta 3. 

58 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Honestly, the twister is about as pro wrestling looking of a submission as exists in MMA.  It's essentially twisting your spine in two different directions in the most painful way possible.  

i think of the Twister submission as a shoot Regal Stretch. 

[supremebve]

15 minutes ago, J.T. said:

It takes a very high level of skill to secure a twister in a legit MMA match since your opponent doesn't exactly want you to bend his neck at an unnatural angle.

It is like the gogoplata, where it either takes a very high level of skill to pull off, or your opponent is a moron...there is no third option.  I'd say moron is the more likely option, because there is almost never a reason to be in the position to be put into a twister.  If someone has your back, they are always going to try to put both hooks in, so you are in no danger of a twister.  If they don't have their hooks in, it's fairly easy for you to not get a single leg isolated, because they have no control of your hips.  If they by chance isolate a leg, just keep your opposite elbow down, and there is literally no way whatsoever for someone to get your arm over their head if you are actively keeping your elbow glued to your side.  You almost have to put yourself into a position to be put into a twister.  It's kind of like the stupid Von Flue choke where the only real way to get caught in it is to grab your opponent's head in a position where they can choke you, but you can't choke them.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, supremebve said:

 It's kind of like the stupid Von Flue choke where the only real way to get caught in it is to grab your opponent's head in a position where they can choke you, but you can't choke them.

Yushin Okami had been fighting for like what by the time he fought OSP? 15 years? Got Von Flue choked. In less than 2 minutes. That's absurd.

But yeah, if you get caught by a Twister, calf slicer, or the Kenny Robertson on Brock Jardine Suloev Stretch kneebar (see below), you probably are a fringe level fighter at best.

 

[supremebve]

4 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Yushin Okami had been fighting for like what by the time he fought OSP? 15 years? Got Von Flue choked. In less than 2 minutes. That's absurd.

But yeah, if you get caught by a Twister, calf slicer, or the Kenny Robertson on Brock Jardine Suloev Stretch kneebar (see below), you probably are a fringe level fighter at best.

 

UFC 228, there were two of these on the same night.  Aljamain Sterling got Cory Stamen and Zabit Magomedsharipv got Brandon Davis.  That probably won't ever happen again.

[Jenalysis]

26 minutes ago, Matt D said:

November 1999 DVDVR 500

      411 Test
      412 Konnan
      413 Super Parka
      414 Switchblade
      415 Evan Koragous (sic)
      416 Pirata Morgan
      417 Masaji Aoyagi
      418 Junji Hirata
      419 Earl The Pearl
      420 Piolota Suicida

What the hell? I hope Aoyagi finds out about this.

 

Jay White was so good that he was on the list just from his rookie year in the Kindergarden Wrestling Federation?

 

[J.T.]

43 minutes ago, supremebve said:

It is like the gogoplata, where it either takes a very high level of skill to pull off, or your opponent is a moron...there is no third option.

You're preaching to the choir, man.  I've been watching the fight game for as long as you have, if not longer since I am an old man. 

Don't need it to be fansplained to me.

35 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Yushin Okami had been fighting for like what by the time he fought OSP? 15 years? Got Von Flue choked. In less than 2 minutes. That's absurd.

I remember Okami getting a lot of wins by decision and not every having a terribly strong ground game.  I've heard fight callers try to pimp his wrestling ability, but I never really saw Okami display that skill in the few fights I have watched.  I do remember Okami getting decapitated by Anderson Silva in Okami's only UFC title shot.

I would think that getting beat by Von Flue is even worse than subbing to a Calf Slicer or a Twister since it almost looks like you have the opportunity to secure your own guillotine before the guy settles in with his shoulder in the position to choke you out.

Edited October 29, 2021 by J.T.

[Elsalvajeloco]

14 minutes ago, J.T. said:

I remember Okami getting a lot of wins by decision and not every having a terribly strong ground game.  I've heard fight callers try to pimp his wrestling ability, but I never really saw Okami display that skill in the few fights I have watched.  I do remember Okami getting decapitated by Anderson Silva in Okami's only UFC title shot.

Okami, in his day, was pretty decent. His best attributes were on the ground until he started training with Chael and came to the states. That's when his striking got better. He was always going to be #2 to Anderson's #1. By the time he fought OSP, he had already been on sort of a career slide and was pretty washed by 2017. 

[Curt McGirt]

Pirata Morgan being below Test and Konnan seems like something that would get you Cashed nowadays.