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October 2021 Wrestling Discussion


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Easy fix with the Becky/Charlotte shit - Set up the Survivor Series match as 'Winner Takes All'.

Charlotte can say that it's stupid to just hand over a title and if Becky wants the RAW Women's title then she should beat Charlotte in the ring.

At SS, if you want to punish Charlotte, then you put Becky over and she runs around as Becky 2 Belts for a while and appears on both shows.

Then she defends the SDL title against someone on a hyped episode of SDL (maybe head to head with AEW) and you crown a new champion. Maybe Queen Vega steals a pin?

Feels like pretty simple/obvious booking that achieves the same thing without making your top women's stars look like petty children fighting over a toy.

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7 minutes ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

Well they've got Female Kevin Owens doing spirit fingers.   Alexa, who it appears the rest of the HW don't like for whatever reason, is sidelined.  Once you get past Rhea and Storm...  I don't know how much else you're going to draw out of the current roster.   (Aside from Yim, who can go, but they've done nothing with.)

Toni Storm boggles the mind.  i thought for sure she'd be a key player.  There's certainly a drop off talent wise once you get past the first 7-8 women on the roster. 

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Shayna, Carmella, Liv, Shotzi, & Tegan have looked good before. Naomi has shown potential but never been given a chance to actually be tested. Aliyah has been perfectly decent-solid. Sonya was just starting to show something before the the stalker asshole put everything in WWE on hold for her. The division is far better than people think. WWE just doesn't give enough of a shit to book most of them in decent feuds or give matches time.

Edited by Eivion
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3 hours ago, nofuture said:

The main problem with Charlotte (and you can blame WWE for this too) is that she's pretty much a one dimension character.  The only role she's good at is dominant female heel champion.  Any other role she's just not good at.  She's just not a sympathetic face.  So if she goes to AEW (or anywhere else), that's most likely the role she's going to play and it's old and tired.  She also can't really use the "WWE held me down" trope most everyone else uses because she never has been held down really.

I think the other thing that hurts her/her character is that she's written to brag and boast like any good heel does but when she loses she merely laughs it off EVERY time. So it's impossible for anyone to get anything over on her character-wise because if they lost to her then she was right (And if she cheats to win, then she also laughed that off) and if she loses, she laughs it off as a fluke. Just recently, she lost to Nikki ASH via MITB. The next week she mocked her for using the briefcase to win, beat her repeatedly, lost once (laughed it off), got the title back and Nikki was much colder than she was coming in. Generally, your heel champion loses and either gets incensed or laughs it off then gets their comeuppance again. 

1 hour ago, Eivion said:

Shayna, Carmella, Liv, Shotzi, & Tegan have looked good before. Naomi has shown potential but never been given a chance to actually be tested. Aliyah has been perfectly decent-solid. Sonya was just starting to show something before the the stalker asshole put everything in WWE on hold for her. The division is far better than people think. WWE just doesn't give enough of a shit to book most of them in decent feuds or give matches time.

There is a really, loud, unusually loyal following for Liv that I've often thought WWE could tap into but they seem to be oblivious to this fact.

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3 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

You're 100% not. There are scenarios where wrestlers have bucked against similarly stupid booking and been applauded for it. This has just been an excuse for many people to work out their baggage with Charlotte. 

Not sure if this was directed at me personally (possible as I did start some of this conversation thread) but for the record I'd agree with her the segment and booking in general is garbage. The point I was trying to make with 'Frankenstein's monster' is that WWE are ultimately to blame. I'd back wrestlers bucking against their awful booking. What I don't back is workers who have been pushed hard for years moaning about "looking weak", and yes the same would apply to Becky too. I don't think that's a particularly spicy take.

 

WWE has lots of talent women on their roster but they simply do not use them. I'd love to a long Ripley, Bazsler, Blackhart, etc singles match on PPV but that isn't happening any time soon

 

Edited by killsteve
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3 hours ago, L_W_P said:

Easy fix with the Becky/Charlotte shit - Set up the Survivor Series match as 'Winner Takes All'.

Charlotte can say that it's stupid to just hand over a title and if Becky wants the RAW Women's title then she should beat Charlotte in the ring.

 

Feels like pretty simple/obvious booking that achieves the same thing without making your top women's stars look like petty children fighting over a toy.

 

I mean didn't we have Brock and Roman do a tug of war not too long ago for the title? Brock and someone definitely. For the brands top belt. Petty children fighting over a toy isn't that far off the mark when you got Brock Lesnar doing a tug of war on live TV for the top belt  

 

 

Someone pages ago mentioned sending a shooter after Charlotte and I was just seeing this on the Bird

 

Edited by Hayabusa
Brock vs Roman tug of war
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5 hours ago, odessasteps said:

I don't know if "stable wars" is something  about which to look fondly, as least considering who were involved (NOD, DOA, Los Boricuas). 

They did Stable Wars with the women. Team Bellas vs Beautiful and Dangerous vs The Submission Sorority/ Team PCB. The factions formed so organically.

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4 hours ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

Well they've got Female Kevin Owens doing spirit fingers.   Alexa, who it appears the rest of the HW don't like for whatever reason, is sidelined.  Once you get past Rhea and Storm...  I don't know how much else you're going to draw out of the current roster.   (Aside from Yim, who can go, but they've done nothing with.)

Alexa and Charlotte were always reported to be close. I wonder if that promo Charlotte cut in ring with Alexa did some damage. There were some semi-live rounds in there. I wonder if Alexa would be one of the ones who feels like she doesn’t know Charlotte anymore. Fwiw, Sasha and Lex are friends now, or at least did a bang up job of pretending a bunch of times on upupdowndown.

I’m just at a loss to think of anything Charlotte could complain about. She is repeatedly allowed to go out and curtail the momentum of other female stars. Just off the top of my head, this year there’s been Asuka, Rhea, Nikki ASH, Nia, and one or two others. 
 

Speaking of Nia, a few months ago I was mocked on here for wondering aloud if there was more to the story behind their tense, shooty match from a couple months ago. Nia is one of the few women Charlotte can’t manhandle and there were multiple moments where both women seemed flat out uninterested in cooperating. This has been going on longer than I think most people realize, and I’m not sure why the higher ups in wwe put up with it when they could fire her tomorrow and not only would ratings stay the same, but they could also build some new female stars.

 

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People need to pick a lane.  Does the talent have unlimited power to bury their opponents with ease, or does Vince rule every segment with an iron fist?  

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9 minutes ago, just drew said:

I’m just at a loss to think of anything Charlotte could complain about. She is repeatedly allowed to go out and curtail the momentum of other female stars. Just off the top of my head, this year there’s been Asuka, Rhea, Nikki ASH, Nia, and one or two others. 

 

Think it possible that maybe she sees that this is a bad thing.

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1 minute ago, Stefanie the Human said:

Think it possible that maybe she sees that this is a bad thing.

Yeah, wrestlers complain about looking strong all the time.

 

idk. Maybe. I’m working hard at trying not to be dismissive of the opinion of others. If that’s the case, good for her.

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7 minutes ago, just drew said:

This has been going on longer than I think most people realize, and I’m not sure why the higher ups in wwe put up with it when they could fire her tomorrow and not only would ratings stay the same, but they could also build some new female stars.

Because they've literally invested millions of dollars to make Charlotte Flair the character she is today?  Banks is the cross-over star, but Charlotte is the wrestler you use to continue to sell shows.  

She gets a lot of criticism and crap for who she is and what her attitude is reported to be.  Rightfully so, too.  But unless something massively egregious happens, Charlotte will fulfill the entirety of her contract before she will ever step foot in another company's ring. 

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4 minutes ago, just drew said:

Yeah, wrestlers complain about looking strong all the time.

 

idk. Maybe. I’m working hard at trying not to be dismissive of the opinion of others. If that’s the case, good for her.

You asked what she could possibly have to complain about, and my response is "being written to completely wipe out all potential opponents, leaving nobody to work with, thus nobody to make money with, would be a valid complaint".

You can take that any way you wish, but I do think it would help to not automatically assume the worst of people you only know based off what you see of them on TV.

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From a few pages ago: I do think this a great time to be a pro wrestling fan because of the easy access to live shows from almost anywhere in the US (others nations seem equally abundant) and the truly miraculous ability to see federations from anywhere else on TV & the interWeb, as well as so much historical, classic, vintage and childhood product just there for the watching. However, in this Rev's opinion, the percentage of great matches, standout cards, memorable feuds and great gimmicks is very very low. The moves, spots, production, aerial and mat work are so sophisticated and amazing but most folks know very little about psychology and story-telling (and most promoters know how to make dream matches but not compelling long term booking) and part of the reason for that is the fan origin of the workers*. Yes, ringwork needs to evolve, but this post-modern self referential undercurrent keeps rassling from hitting the memory making artistry that was there in the past.

 

And now, back to surmising what happened backstage in the WWE...

 

*Other reasons - lack of territories, death of kay fabe, no replacement for heel/face structure (all of which were inevitable), WWE's overexposure and shitty booking, spoiled fans, and more. Don't get me started.

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31 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

You asked what she could possibly have to complain about, and my response is "being written to completely wipe out all potential opponents, leaving nobody to work with, thus nobody to make money with, would be a valid complaint".

You can take that any way you wish, but I do think it would help to not automatically assume the worst of people you only know based off what you see of them on TV.

That’s fair. In Charlotte’s  cases, it ls hard for me not to make assumptions about the kind of person she is after seeing her continue to stiff a clearly concussed Kairi Sane, but I shouldn’t assume. 

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I kinda feel sorry for Charlotte because she's basically the Brock Lesnar of the Women's division, Protected from Day one. She's going to get heat from peers and fans alike. Even I didn't really get around to enjoying her work till about 3 years into her main roster run. Based on what I've heard,  Charlotte insisted on dropping the title to Bel-Air is great. That switching titles rule devalues the belt. It's a dumb rule for any of the divisions and the women are the only people to have enough pride to be vocal about that rule. I know titles in WWE don't mean much but that isn't to that fault of the wrestlers. So what if they come across as marks. Woods winning King of the Ring is a much bigger deal than it would be with anyone else only because it was something he actually literally wanted to Win. King of the Ring hasn't had any real meaning since 2002 outside of King Booker in 06 of course. 

I have no problem with Charlotte or anyone standing up to protect their character, especially if it doesn't hurt the rest of the division. It's unfortunate that the people in charge don't value the credibility of rest of the division put side of the two singles Champs and the top challengers 

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12 hours ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

Exactly.  If Charlotte Flair becomes available, you move heaven and earth to sign her.   Frankly, outside of AEW, I don't know of anyone who'd have the money to meet her asking price.  Maybe Stardom?  

She is a proven draw and when motivated a fantastic wrestler.   Y'all act like there aren't people in AEW right now who aren't colossal assholes behind the curtain. 

 

 

12 hours ago, DEAN said:

It would be like not signing Randy Orton if he became available.

I think I understand the general sentiment of "if a star becomes available, you sign them" but I have to respectfully disagree. 

One reason is personal: 

I have never met Charlotte Flair or Randy Orton, but my sense is that I wouldn't want to work with either of them, work in a place where either are employed, or (perhaps most of all) be in charge of a work environment where either one is present.

In Charlotte's case it's entirely down to the Kairi Sane incident. To me, that was such horrifically unprofessional and self-centred behaviour that I doubt I'll ever be able to move beyond it. Unforgivable.

In Orton's case, it's down to the oft-repeated stories of him thinking it's hilarious to use other wrestler's bags as a toilet, and to stand around literally holding his dick in his hand while locker room etiquette dictates that the newcomer shake that same hand. 

Who needs the headaches?

There's also a business reason:

I sincerely believe that signing both Charlotte and Orton would not "move the needle" a single inch as far as AEW's same-day live TV viewership numbers are concerned. I can't imagine many members of the "WWE Universe" would follow them to AEW and I am certain that they won't draw more pro wrestling fans than Punk and Bryan. Business-wise, I don't think you'd be making a good investment just in terms of straight-up dollars spent vs dollars earned. That is without even considering the potential damage to morale and the reduced opportunities to elevate younger workers.

Finally, I just think that the "WWE stink" is just WAY to strong on both of them. It's pretty far removed from Miro/Black/Soho situation where everyone could see they were being used badly. Orton and Charlotte have both been pushed relentlessly...

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I think AEW would lose more "hardcore" AEW fans than they could possibly recoup if they brought either or both of those wrestlers in, and pushed them right away. It's one of the very few things AEW could do that might turn me (and my many FITE-subscribing, merch-purchasing friends) away from AEW.

tl/dr: I ain't fer it, I'm agin it.

Edited by Gordberg
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