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October 2021 Wrestling Discussion


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6 hours ago, Eivion said:

AZM, Riho, & Ram Kaicho all started around 9 (possibly younger for Ram). That said, I agree its more of an exception than proof its perfectly fine and healthy.

Did Ram even bump when she was in 666?

 

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4 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Speaking of kids getting into the business (as mentioned last night in the not from now thread)

 

Everyone should watch Robbie Brookside Video Diaries. It was a real revelation to have a semi-insider wrestling documentary being shown on primetime BBC2 in 1994.

 

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8 hours ago, Craig H said:

Hell, even 16 is probably too young.

I feel like my parents should keep their kids away from the pro wrestling biz until they’re old enough, and I turn 50 in a few months.

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3 hours ago, Ace said:

Did Ram even bump when she was in 666?

 

I feel like Joshi should be disqualified because if you see any footage from those AJW tryouts from the 80s with some of those girls who (somehow through the grace of God) went on to be the biggest stars in joshi pro wrestling history, it would only strengthen and solidify your stance one way or the other. 15 year old Keiko Nakano looks like she belongs everywhere EXCEPT a pro wrestling ring. Erika Shishido in her pro wrestling debut or first few matches at fifteen or sixteen is out there in what appears to be a completely inappropriate half nightgown/half negligee attire. Manami Toyota and her super creepy thousand yard stare (to be fair to Toyota, Takako Inoue had that vibe going on too) as a teenager like she just committed a mass murdering spree, and she wants to show the authorities where the unmarked mass graves are after she turns herself in. It's fucking wild, man. 

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Hot take? Wrestling, as an art and sport, is at it's absolute best now more than any other time. The reason? 99% of wrestlers grew up fans and WANTED to wrestle, versus previous decades of failed/retired football players, bouncers, and other big tough bastards who only took up the profession because their previous choices weren't working out. 

Okay, maybe not "hot" as much as "slightly above room temp"?

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37 minutes ago, christopher.annino said:

Hot take? Wrestling, as an art and sport, is at it's absolute best now more than any other time. The reason? 99% of wrestlers grew up fans and WANTED to wrestle, versus previous decades of failed/retired football players, bouncers, and other big tough bastards who only took up the profession because their previous choices weren't working out. 

Okay, maybe not "hot" as much as "slightly above room temp"?

 

From a US perspective I'd say many wrestlers nowadays are capable of much more than the average worker back in the territory days and are exposed to more styles. In a similar way being born into the business and being thrown in at the deep end from a young age naturally gave lads (Harts, Funks, Guerreros, Bockwinkel etc) advantages over the footballers/bouncers as pure workers. 

There maybe isn't so much of a difference in terms of Mexican or European wrestling where I sense there's been less of a shift stylistically. You watch a bendyboi grapplefuck match from Manchester in 2019 and it could be plucked straight from the SC French catch archive. You watch a modern CMLL spotfest and it could be from an Arena Mexico handheld in '92. 

 

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26 minutes ago, Jimbo_Tsuruta said:

 

From a US perspective I'd say many wrestlers nowadays are capable of much more than the average worker back in the territory days and are exposed to more styles. In a similar way being born into the business and being thrown in at the deep end from a young age naturally gave lads (Harts, Funks, Guerreros, Bockwinkel etc) advantages over the footballers/bouncers as pure workers. 

There maybe isn't so much of a difference in terms of Mexican or European wrestling where I sense there's been less of a shift stylistically. You watch a bendyboi grapplefuck match from Manchester in 2019 and it could be plucked straight from the SC French catch archive. You watch a modern CMLL spotfest and it could be from an Arena Mexico handheld in '92. 

 

Excellent points! I should have specified American pro wrestling. 

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4 hours ago, christopher.annino said:

Hot take? Wrestling, as an art and sport, is at it's absolute best now more than any other time. The reason? 99% of wrestlers grew up fans and WANTED to wrestle, versus previous decades of failed/retired football players, bouncers, and other big tough bastards who only took up the profession because their previous choices weren't working out. 

Okay, maybe not "hot" as much as "slightly above room temp"?

Hopefully the fans seated behind the hard camera start looking even more excited during the best stuff instead of looking very focused while sitting on their hands and never talking. Which doesn’t just happen for bad products either.

Somehow someway the one thing that has moved from Japanese Wrestling to US Wrestling involves fans that don’t really make much noise during matches?

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4 hours ago, christopher.annino said:

Hot take? Wrestling, as an art and sport, is at it's absolute best now more than any other time. The reason? 99% of wrestlers grew up fans and WANTED to wrestle, versus previous decades of failed/retired football players, bouncers, and other big tough bastards who only took up the profession because their previous choices weren't working out. 

Okay, maybe not "hot" as much as "slightly above room temp"?

I would agree with that, but the two biggest stars of the previous generations (hell three cause I guess you can say Cena was a failed bodybuilder and four if you count Lesnar) were technically failed football players. If Steve Austin had been better at football and didn't have to work at UPS/FedEx or live in his car eating tuna when broke into the business, he would have been doing that. Same with The Rock. If he had succeeded at Miami and went to have as successful a pro career as some of his college teammates eventually did, he would have been doing that.

It's not like coming from those other endeavors and professions automatically made you not love the business. If those guys didn't work hard, they would never made it. I think the issue is moreso wrestling just provided a safe haven for toxic behavior for several decades. Hell, Grizzly Smith didn't come from that background and still was a certified piece of shit. Sean Waltman wasn't that and still engaged in some reprehensible behavior. And a lot of those folks did grow up as fans and did want to wrestle. However, it wasn't an either/or thing scenario when they had the option. The thing is life can be hard as you get older and you don't have many options. That's just reality. Sure, a Shane Douglas can quit wrestling two or three times in a span of five years in the late 80s and early 90s like he actually did and go back to teaching. Shane Douglas was a fan of wrestling growing up near Pittsburgh, but that didn't stop him from burying the business seven feet deep everytime he "quit" only to eventually come back. The average football or basketball player tears his ACL and it's either Home Depot or pro wrestling. That's as true now as it is thirty or forty years ago. It's just there are no absolutes. To me, your background is irrelevant as long you have the gift to make it in wrestling.

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@Elsalvajelocovery true but Austin seems like he was always huge fan of the biz and The Rock grew up in it, and that family involvement was mentioned by @Jimbo_Tsurutatoo. I'm not trying to say that nobody who came before was a fan growing up, but more that we as wrestling fans are benefitting from a current crop of talent raised on the 80s and 90s WWF/E, WCW, ECW, NJPW, AJPW, FMW, M-Pro, etc. The actual in-ring product right now is fucking phenomenal and I think that's due to the fandom of the wrestlers. 

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Branching off this conversation (which has been really great btw you guys) I'd like someone whose been around longer than me (I'm in my 30s) to comment on this perception:

where did the idea (you could call it a meme even) of "failed football player" come from? My kneejerk reaction is that it probably started with Lex, but I really don't recall seeing it said pejoratively online until maybe the last 10-15 years or so. Goldberg? Johnny Ace's first Talent Relations stint? 

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41 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

The average football or basketball player tears his ACL and it's either Home Depot or pro wrestling. That's as true now as it is thirty or forty years ago. It's just there are no absolutes. To me, your background is irrelevant as long you have the gift to make it in wrestling.

Eh not really nowadays. An ACL injury isn't a career killer like it was back in the 80s. Dudes come back from ACL injuries pretty often now.

Edited by cwoy2j
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9 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Branching off this conversation (which has been really great btw you guys) I'd like someone whose been around longer than me (I'm in my 30s) to comment on this perception:

where did the idea (you could call it a meme even) of "failed football player" come from? My kneejerk reaction is that it probably started with Lex, but I really don't recall seeing it said pejoratively online until maybe the last 10-15 years or so. Goldberg? Johnny Ace's first Talent Relations stint? 

You could probably go back to all of the old West Texas State guys like Dusty, Stan Hansen, Funk, Tito, Tully, etc. I know that Dusty and Hansen gave pro football a go and weren't good enough. Tully never sniffed the pros as from what I've read, he was a pretty shitty QB (16 career tds vs. 38 interceptions). I think they were among the first group of guys who tried football first and when that didn't work, went into wrestling.

 

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/tully-blanchard-1.html

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26 minutes ago, christopher.annino said:

@Elsalvajelocovery true but Austin seems like he was always huge fan of the biz and The Rock grew up in it, and that family involvement was mentioned by @Jimbo_Tsurutatoo. I'm not trying to say that nobody who came before was a fan growing up, but more that we as wrestling fans are benefitting from a current crop of talent raised on the 80s and 90s WWF/E, WCW, ECW, NJPW, AJPW, FMW, M-Pro, etc. The actual in-ring product right now is fucking phenomenal and I think that's due to the fandom of the wrestlers. 

So did Erik Watts and Angelo Mosca Jr. 

I would say the in ring product trending in an upward manner is a result of the changing philosophy of what the work should look like. They're going to be old school people who always say wrestling is taking a step backwards in telling a story or psychology or even the realness of the moves. However, if you're a fan of the evolution and what the current wrestling looks like in ring, it's never going to be a step backwards.

10 minutes ago, cwoy2j said:

Eh not really nowadays. An ACL injury isn't a career killer like was back in the 80s. Dudes come back from ACL injuries pretty often now.

Sure, if you're an Adrian Peterson or not even a physical freak of nature like AP but a top talent, you can come back. However, even with the improvement in technology to get these guys back right, the fringe or just good/solid player...if he loses an ounce of burst or a bit of speed, that's it. There are plenty of guys who would have had a decent six or seven year run and it ends up being 2-3 high point years with good production and the rest being an also ran.

A Dak Prescott can suffer a broken and dislocated ankle and come back good as new because he's exceptional. A Delanie Walker and Tyler Eifert cannot because they play a skill position that's a strength related position and they're also pass catching tight ends.

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Oh for sure there's always gonna be Cornette types who bitch about the current state of affairs while completely ignoring that their own contributions to the biz were similarly shat upon by miserable old fucks. Those folks aren't my worry and hopefully not for most other fans. 

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15 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

So did Erik Watts and Angelo Mosca Jr. 

I would say the in ring product trending in an upward manner is a result of the changing philosophy of what the work should look like. They're going to be old school people who always say wrestling is taking a step backwards in telling a story or psychology or even the realness of the moves. However, if you're a fan of the evolution and what the current wrestling looks like in ring, it's never going to be a step backwards.

Sure, if you're an Adrian Peterson or not even a physical freak of nature like AP but a top talent, you can come back. However, even with the improvement in technology to get these guys back right, the fringe or just good/solid player...if he loses an ounce of burst or a bit of speed, that's it. There are plenty of guys who would have had a decent six or seven year run and it ends up being 2-3 high point years with good production and the rest being an also ran.

A Dak Prescott can suffer a broken and dislocated ankle and come back good as new because he's exceptional. A Delanie Walker and Tyler Eifert cannot because they play a skill position that's a strength related position and they're also pass catching tight ends.

I just think it's way more common than it used to be. An ACL used to be a career killer or severe diminisher even for physical freaks. I remember NBA player Bernard King tore his knee up in the 80s. He was one of the most prolific scorers ever before that and people thought he was done after he tore his ACL. He ended up coming back and was actually pretty good for a few years after that but everyone thought that was a fluke.

Also with Walker, he dislocated his ankle when he was like 35. That's a little different than a Dak Prescott whose 24 or so. Eifert's post injury stats were about as good as his pre injury stats. 

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4 minutes ago, christopher.annino said:

Oh for sure there's always gonna be Cornette types who bitch about the current state of affairs while completely ignoring that their own contributions to the biz were similarly shat upon by miserable old fucks. Those folks aren't my worry and hopefully not for most other fans. 

Hell, not even just Cornette. There are people on this board that aren't really fans of this current wrestling landscape. However, there has always been a push to be more workrate oriented in wrestling generation after generation. What aided the current wrestling is the fact that for twenty years almost, there was one big kahuna and a bunch of smaller waves so naturally it became the "boring and predictable" homogenized WWE style vs. everything else. In actuality, necessity is the mother of invention. I don't care if everyone loved and adored WWE over the years with zero criticism. Wrestling is something that requires at least one alternative. In every generation, you had more than one option (some better than others obviously). Because most if not the vast majority of us here grew up with wrestling in the 70s, 80s, or 90s/2000s, you're always going to be tied to more than one thing that you loved about pro wrestling. There is going to be a group who doesn't like the current generation and discounts it by praising and upholding the old stuff, but there will also the group who loves the current generation. Why? The evolution of the in ring work was always predicted on pushing the envelope. 

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