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August 2021 Wrestling Discussion


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15 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

 I'm not saying everybody's going to take the deal, but if you think they're not going to wave money at some guys, you're living in a world you'd rather live in instead of the one that exists.

 

25 minutes ago, Dog said:

Those guys still don't work WWE style. If we take them at their word (ha!), they're sick of retraining people.

 

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I'm going to go ahead and step away from the conversation. I'm just not going to be able to express my point in a mature rational way conductive to continuing the conversation. I'll just leave it at this, hope no one on the other side of this conversation spends 18 years of their life working towards a life goal that just disappears over night.

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So if I'm reading the new NXT edict right, WWE's popularity has waned because people do too many drop kicks and 2 3/4 kick outs? 

If you can't create compelling characters involved in compelling stories, it really doesn't matter how tall/good looking the workers are. 

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1 hour ago, Shartnado said:

You may not care, but I will be here for what ever "House of Monet" will be! Holy shit!

I assume that's going to be the name of Franky Monet's (fka Taya) stable with Robert Stone and Jessi Kamea.

 

Regarding the new directives, I'm glad they're reverting back because the men's scene was stale as hell and it wasn't going to change anytime soon. Also I don't think the new directives will change that much going on. I don't think that Mace, Jinder's goons, Angelo Dawkins, Montez Ford, Big E, Corbin, Gable, Azeez, Boa, Odyssey Jones, Top Dolla, Xyon Quinn (who just debuted on NXT) or Otis (granted he worked the indies for a year) wrestle the same. And on the women's side, Bianca, Carmella, Aaliyah, Dana, Mandy, Lacey, Nia, Alexa, Liv, Jessi Kamea, Kacy, Raquel and Xia don't all wrestle the same. There are spots you have to hit for TV purposes (they love the dive going into the break) but that's the nature of their production. 

But yeah give me new folks trying stuff out on TV and evolving instead of indy vets staying at the top of the card. And bring back Roar of the Crowd for the theme!

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11 minutes ago, joseph2112 said:

If you can't create compelling characters involved in compelling stories, it really doesn't matter how tall/good looking the workers are. 

This is it. They can fire and hire and train whomever whenever, 6'10 or 5'3, indyrific or Brakkus 2.0; nothing's getting better as long as they maintain the same stale writing, start-and-stop booking, cutting off talent at the knees when they start to get over, and all-around refuse to let anybody get "too big" since for WWE the brand is all they want to truly push. 

To paraphrase Nova/Simon Dean, the wrestlers are doing their job, why not fire the fucking writers?

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Going back to the Riddle comments on Reigns:

If Vince was smart and this company wanted to actual run with things then Riddle would get a title match on SDL in a couple of weeks.

Roman would cut a promo, they would show Riddle's comments talking shit about Roman and Roman would invite him on to take a shot.

You get a couple weeks of TV promos in between whatever else both parties are up to.

You build to a nice TV main event & you put your champion over. In a squash if you need to punish Riddle. Or you have Roman cost him the tag belts in the build up.

But this will be ignored. They will keep rolling on with their shit and nobody will do anything note worthy because you can't have people getting over on their own.

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1 hour ago, For Great Justice said:

Not a WWE guy at all but I’m sort of confused by the “more Mark Jindraks” takes. Aren’t Big E and Bianca Belair far more recent and relevant examples of what they’re looking to produce? 

Probably.  Also Braun, the Street Profits, Miro (sorta), etc.

Meanwhile, people here and elsewhere have spent a lot of time shitting on the NXT main event formula and talking about how little interest they had in Cole, O’Reilly, Gargano, Ciampa, etc.  So….

Edited by Eoae
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3 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said:

You at least attempt to "overpay" some guys that look like they'd fit. MJF, Wardlow, Hobbes, Both Pages, Griff 'n Brian Jr., Starks. Those are the only people I'd expect them to go after in the men's ranks. Maybe Anthony Bowens or the Bears.  I'm not in any way implying they're gonna sign Jack Evans for a million bucks and a truckload of cigs to crush the enemy's backstage morale.

I don’t think any of those guys, other than Hobbs & the Bears, would leave AEW unless they aren’t offered extensions. Why on earth would you go somewhere away from a friendly owner & locker room full of likeminded talent to go play Nicky Budgets’ Reindeer Games for a couple years before they cut you loose? None of those AEW stalwarts are going anywhere, and idk why people would think they are…

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I read the NXT comments a bit differently than most it seems. I may be off base, but I took it that WWE looked at NXT and went "we have way too many 'indie-type' wrestlers right now" so they aren't going to look to pick up any more of them because that niche beyond filled there right now. Basically if in their ideal NXT the split would be 50% indie guys and 50% athletic students they train up (the specific percents aren't important, pick your own if you'd like) and they see that it is currently 85% indie guys and 15% students they likely end up releasing some of the indie guys they are less sold on (which they've done) and likely hold off on hiring any more for the next bit while focusing on hiring for the latter group. I think it is more than likely once they are finished correcting what they see as an imbalance and the indie group thins out via call ups or releases you will see some hired from that talent pool once again. Or I'm wrong and they'll never hire an indie wrestler again, but that feels rather unlikely to me.   

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47 minutes ago, just drew said:

I don’t think any of those guys, other than Hobbs & the Bears, would leave AEW unless they aren’t offered extensions. Why on earth would you go somewhere away from a friendly owner & locker room full of likeminded talent to go play Nicky Budgets’ Reindeer Games for a couple years before they cut you loose? None of those AEW stalwarts are going anywhere, and idk why people would think they are…

If they pay you more money.

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To add to the Japan comparison, NJPW definitely promotes guys trained in-house over others and will adopt signees into that system whenever they can get away with it, but at least when taking on people who are still inexperienced excursions are also an important part of the formula. I'm sure part of that is for general life experience purposes when you're trying to move guys on from years of sleeping in a dojo living the drill sergeant subordination dream, but in terms of wrestling I interpret it as:

a) a value to the company to have outside influences to avoid their style becoming too incestuous. Parking guys in different corners of the world means hopefully no two have the same upbringing and they can bring something new to the group rather than regurgitating what it already had.

b) a value to the individual of being outside the system. Different locker rooms. Adapting to random opponents. Trying to appeal to crowds that respond to different things and don't know who you are. You know, the indy experience. I don't think it matters that much where they go or how they're used (Okada's TNA run didn't seem to deter them too much). More that they get the opportunity to put it all together themselves after they've been given the tools and to find some new inspirations along the way.

So it's agreeing with WWE that if you want to drill in your fundamentals it's easier when you get them early rather than re-training after they've had years to establish themselves, but it may be disagreeing with how useful the other part is. If you want your roster to be told what to do, work TV matches only and happily sign on the dotted line when their contract is up for renewal, maybe not so much.

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3 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Let's use someone else besides Mark Jindrak for these meathead comparisons from now on, because when my local Spanish language station carried CMLL, I for sure saw him have a bunch of bangers

Shawn Stasiak?

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46 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

If they pay you more money.

Hard to believe TK can’t outbid Vince for anyone he really wants, seeing as how the Khans are worth way more than the McMahons. Besides, the E already got a look/offered most of those guys, and for one reason or another none of them ended up there. I think this is a case of “making up a problem where there isn’t one.”  

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6 hours ago, Shartnado said:

I will be here for what ever "House of Monet" will be! Holy shit!

Their finisher had better include a bridging pin called the Water Lily.

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3 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Let's use someone else besides Mark Jindrak for these meathead comparisons from now on, because when my local Spanish language station carried CMLL, I for sure saw him have a bunch of bangers

El Gigante/ Zeus for the 80s?

Kurrgan if we're going 90s wwf?

Nathan Jones / Heidenreich?

Great Khali, I imagine Jinder Mahal during the 3MB days, ryback during NXT era?

Haven't seen Azeez(sp?) lock up, maybe him?

Don't have any of these guys bios readily available, just pulling names outta the air so if they did have wrestling experience before getting into developmental then feel free to ignore em

Edited by Hayabusa
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Gigante was in WCW. Khali, Heidenreich and Jones all had prior wrestling experience in Japan. They just didn't improve. 

Ryback was around for ages before NXT, might be a good pick for an underwhelming WWE-System-Product. 

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As someone’s who’s wife still watches Jersey Shore, I’m amazed WWE hasn’t signed up Zack Clayton (J-Wowws boyfriend).  

He’s young, jacked and already has a celebrity connection.  He certainly seems to fit the mold, even if he has worked some indies.

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How is Jun

12 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Let's use someone else besides Mark Jindrak for these meathead comparisons from now on, because when my local Spanish language station carried CMLL, I for sure saw him have a bunch of bangers

How is Jindrak in this conversation?  He was trained at the WCW Power Plant and wrestled for WCW during its last few years.  Spent like four years in WWE (on the main roster, not developmental), then had a 13-year run in Mexico.

He was rather successful in Mexico and definitely wasn't terrible in the ring.  There have been a lot worse wrestlers.  There are probably a fair number of worse wrestlers currently signed to NXT contracts.

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I think we're using Jindrak as the example of a WWE made guy because everyone forgot about Mojo Rawley. A man who got over in NXT using the "Lance Archer in TNA" approach of hanging out with the fans after the show and generally being a nice guy. Then went on the road with the main roster and found he couldn't find any way to get over with new people who didn't already like him.

So they drew lines in his face and made him talk to a mirror.

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Ryback might be a good answer.  No prior experience before he auditioned for Tough Enough.  Two separate stints in developmental.  Managed to wrestle in three different developmental territories (DSW, OVW, FCW) and the game show incarnation of NXT, which seems like it might be some sort of record.  Worked indie dates after he was released the second time, but never caught on regularly and charged enough that promoters weren't going to bring him often (the "I don't really want to do this, but I'll do it for mad money" routine).  Finally got out of the business in 2018.

I think the common perception is that he wasn't very good in-ring and never improved (ask Punk about that, lol) but I'm not sure that's fair.  He definitely showed more charisma and promo ability as Ryback than he had in his previous gimmicks.  All in all, though, he's the kind of guy Meltzer is referring to when he (Dave) talks about guys who want to be a WWE wrestler and make WWE money vs. guys who just want to wrestle.

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I'd like to make an anecdotal point.

I've known a lot of wrestlers over my life, and a lot of that lot had the goal of wanting to go to WWE. And I, being curious, would always ask them "why?" Not because I didn't think it was a good goal, but because I was curious about what would make that want to be their overall goal.

And nearly all of them had one of the following responses:
- It's where they believe they can make the most money
- It's where they think their work will be seen by the most people
- It's what they watched growing up and they want to be part of it

With no viable alternatives for nearly two decades, responses 1 and 2 naturally would point at least one generation of pro wrestlers towards WWE. Maybe it would convince folks to try out Impact or ROH for a few years, and maybe now it'll direct people to AEW, but ever since WCW and ECW died in 2001, if you wanted to make money and you wanted the most eyeballs on your work, you had it drilled into your head that you go to WWE to do that.

And WWE, I firmly believe, wants people to work for them who would rather have response 3. People who want to work for WWE because it's WWE. People who will work the style WWE wants, have no desire to work anywhere but WWE, and once WWE is done with them, will maybe work some indies to get some extra pay before moving onto the next stage of their life. After all, wrestling isn't forever... is it?

Is that a bad thing? I'm sure that can be debated. But if it's the direction WWE is taking their business, and there's enough people who are brand loyal enough to go along with it to staff them with talent for years to come, who knows what that'll mean? Maybe WWE is aware that they need competition to survive, and going this direction will create competition in a group like AEW who provide another option for hungry talent. Maybe WWE is isolated enough that they don't see themselves as even being in the same business as AEW.

The only thing I know for sure is that I'm just some weirdo on a message board.

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