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August 2021 Wrestling Discussion


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3 minutes ago, AxB said:

On his first appearance, on Rampage a week ago, SM Punk had AC written on his shoes. On his second, on Dynamite 2 days ago, he had BW.

So clearly he thinks Ashely Cole should come out of retirement, and sign for Bolton Wanderers.

There is NO other logical explanation. That must be it.

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Back to the new WWE hiring recruitment process, keep in mind they mean not hiring from American indys, so outside of America it's unknown if hiring from other countries indys is ok. WWE is still interested in signing non indy talent from other countries promotions like Japan and Mexico and etc.

Edited by D.Z
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8 minutes ago, D.Z said:

Back to the new WWE hiring recruitment process, keep in mind they mean not hiring from American indys, so outside of America it's unknown if hiring from other countries indys is ok. WWE is still interested in signing non indy talent from other countries promotions like Japan and Mexico and etc.

If they don't want American workers who haven't been born and bred in their system, why would they want foreign workers who would theoretically have more habits they need to break? 

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4 hours ago, Technico Support said:

On We Watch Wrestling, they compared this to Lorne Michaels deciding SNL should no longer hire up and coming experienced comedians and instead will start hiring good looking people and teach them how to be funny.

Isn't this what SNL essentially does now? They don't hire funny people. They hire people with a talent for improv and impersonations. This is how someone like Pete Davidson became such a standout. He's a marginally funny person amongst a group of people who can't deliver a joke. 

 

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19 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said:

Isn't this what SNL essentially does now? They don't hire funny people. They hire people with a talent for improv and impersonations. This is how someone like Pete Davidson became such a standout. He's a marginally funny person amongst a group of people who can't deliver a joke. 

 

My favorite Doctor growing up. 

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Hulk Hogan had prior experience. Ric Flair had prior experience. The Undertaker had prior experience. Steve Austin had prior experience. John Cena had prior experience. Mick Foley had prior experience. Triple H had prior experience. Big Show had prior experience. Kane had prior experience. Batista had prior experience. Edge had prior experience. Becky Lynch had prior experience. Sasha Banks had prior experience. Bayley had prior experience. Gonna miss out on a lot of potential great additions to their roster with this stupid new plan.

I get that they have had some hits on training people from the ground up. I'm sure they count The Rock but that isn't fair because he's 2nd generation and learned a ton before they trained him. Same with Randy Orton. Kurt Angle & Brock Lesnar count but had a solid amateur wrestling base before WWE, so they already had half the physical part down. Even if you count all 4 of these guys, that was about 2 decades ago. OVW isn't a thing anymore. The only two big stars that come to mind from the NXT system that had no prior experience are... Charlotte & Reigns. Both of which... are second generation stars who absorbed a shit ton growing up.

Can anyone point to a legitimate instance of someone "moving the needle" having only been trained by NXT? Specifically someone that isn't a second or third generation athlete? Like seriously. Who are they trying to create? If it's Brocks & Angles... uhh okay you'll two or three shots with freak amateur athletes. if it's Charlotte & Reigns... uhh okay you'll have 5-10 chances on pro wrestler's offspring. But who the fuck did they ever make that didn't have any wrestling experience? Who is the biggest ground up name they produced through NXT? Big E? How many random athletes off the street have that personality and charisma? Of all the others like him, how many can be on Big E's level? 1 in 10? 1 in 100? 1 in 1,000?

This is stupid fucking policy and I will love watching it fail.
-Signed a wrestler with previous experience.

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I feel like Vince is de facto admitting that AEW is the better option for established indie stars and what's left won't help him compete with what AEW is putting out there.  Personally, I don't mind if he tries a different direction.  I'm not enjoying NXT much of late and a lot of those guys don't have futures on the main roster, so.... why not try something 

Problem is, the talent pool is what the talent pool is.  Vince may not want a 5'9" guy in kickpads for the main roster, but you're going to find a lot more Johnny KIckpads than you are guys with the look and size Vince wants who can talk and work as well.  It's not 1989 when you could walk into the local gym and find a bored bodybuilder with the skill set to make a Road Warrior gimmick work.  

I'm hoping it works out for Vince.  I'm not extremely optimistic, but NXT is a lot less entertaining than it was 4-6 years ago and the main roster is stale, in part because of the scarcity of call-ups.  Sure, it's largely a creative issue, but Vince probably thinks pivoting recruiting is probably easier than trying to fix creative (and has the benefit of being someone else's fault.  Vince still controls the creative side, so admitting a large-scale issue with that is perilously close to admitting he's lost touch with the modern audience).

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17 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Can anyone point to a legitimate instance of someone "moving the needle" having only been trained by NXT? Specifically someone that isn't a second or third generation athlete? Like seriously. Who are they trying to create? If it's Brocks & Angles... uhh okay you'll two or three shots with freak amateur athletes. if it's Charlotte & Reigns... uhh okay you'll have 5-10 chances on pro wrestler's offspring. But who the fuck did they ever make that didn't have any wrestling experience? Who is the biggest ground up name they produced through NXT? Big E? How many random athletes off the street have that personality and charisma? Of all the others like him, how many can be on Big E's level? 1 in 10? 1 in 100? 1 in 1,000?

I think the most likely future stars are Bianca Belair and Rhea Ripley who also happen to be two of the most overwhelmingly physically talented wrestling prospects I've ever seen. I remember watching the 1st Mae Young classic and being impressed at how incredibly athletic both of them were especially in comparison to the women who were in the main roster at the time. If that's the standard, they are going to be disappointed when they don't find any more of those lying around. 

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I know WWE will change course eventually because this plan is dumb, but I keep thinking about 1) smaller, “Indy” guys still with NXT who know they currently have no future in the company and are just passing time and 2) a whole bunch of Indy wrestlers who just had a big possible option closed off.  I feel bad for all these people.

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I don't really get why people get annoyed at WWE preferring to produce in house. What is wrong with wanting to train people from the ground up instead of breaking what might be deemed bad habits and then teaching to wrestle WWE's style? It just doesn't make sense to me as a complaint seeing that its more or less the system one of the most popular countries for wrestling uses in Japan. Beyond that with the amount of bitching people do sometimes when indy talent did get picked up by WWE you would think people would prefer their favorites from the scene not heading to the "evil empire."

Edited by Eivion
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5 minutes ago, Eivion said:

I don't really get why people get annoyed at WWE preferring to produce in house. What is wrong with wanting to train people from the ground up instead of breaking what might be deemed bad habits and then teaching to wrestle WWE's style? It just doesn't make sense to me as a complaint seeing that its more or less the system one of the most popular countries for wrestling uses in Japan. Beyond that with the amount of bitching people do sometimes when indy talent did get picked up by WWE you would think people would prefer their favorites from the scene not heading to the "evil empire."

My issue is that it will lead to less good wrestling. I think the best wrestling comes when the most talented people are allowed to work to the peak of their talents. Limiting the pool of talent will limit how many of the best workers will get to work together. 

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The thing about WWE is, it's monotonous and formulaic. And a lot of the best matches in recent WWE history have been good because they broke the formula. Which is going to be harder to do, with people who have never worked outside of it.

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6 minutes ago, supremebve said:

My issue is that it will lead to less good wrestling. I think the best wrestling comes when the most talented people are allowed to work to the peak of their talents. Limiting the pool of talent will limit how many of the best workers will get to work together. 

How does it limit them if people don't think the best talent are in WWE in the first place? Never mind that WWE keeps talent apart via brands. Peoples' favorites on the scene are far more likely to meet and get time to wrestle a good-great match there than in WWE. That isn't even going into people who don't care for WWE's style like say:

8 minutes ago, AxB said:

The thing about WWE is, it's monotonous and formulaic. And a lot of the best matches in recent WWE history have been good because they broke the formula. Which is going to be harder to do, with people who have never worked outside of it.

I mean if you don't like WWE's style I'm not sure why you are watching then in the first place. Its not going change to something else entirely.

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If WWE is so set on being a 'content' company, then it makes sense to try and diversify that content as much as possible.

Make RAW for older viewing. A little more sex appeal and hardcore wrestling.

Make Smackdown your all star athletic show. Technical wrestlers gather here for 'real sports build'.

Turn 205 live into a lucha show. Hire a bunch of guys in masks on short term deals and exhibit them. Give her a platform to show off.

NXT is the training ground. It's not a super Indy for Adam Cole & Johnny Gargano to cash in. It's for the guys you've never heard of like The Vaudevillians, Bull Dempsey & Bayley.

They have 10+ hours of TV to fill each week.

Do something different. It's not like they can't afford the risk.

 

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57 minutes ago, Eivion said:

I don't really get why people get annoyed at WWE preferring to produce in house. What is wrong with wanting to train people from the ground up instead of breaking what might be deemed bad habits and then teaching to wrestle WWE's style? It just doesn't make sense to me as a complaint seeing that its more or less the system one of the most popular countries for wrestling uses in Japan. 

Assuming you’re talking about New Japan, I don’t think this comparison holds. Okada, Ishii, Suzuki, Ibushi, SANADA, Shingo, Ospreay, ZSJ, et al, all trained elsewhere before working in New Japan. Naito and Tanahashi were dojo grads, but the former spent years in Mexico (as part of the excursion system and then a repackage), and Tanahashi worked extensively in NOAH and AJPW. They haven’t developed their main eventers in a bubble historically either, as everyone either went on excursions or toured with other companies.

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Don't forget that Tana also worked in.... drumroll please... TNA! 

Which leads me to my next two comments. 1. Titan is a hilarious name for Bloody Sodomizer (that's his black metal name) and might just get them sued. They should certainly try to use it. 2. Said it before and will say it again, Bray and Decay would work together just fine. They should probably sign Rowan too. 

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Honestly, that new NXT logo is way better than the grimdark redesign with all the skulls and shit. I remain confused as to who that was supposed to appeal to.

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1 hour ago, Beech27 said:

Assuming you’re talking about New Japan, I don’t think this comparison holds. Okada, Ishii, Suzuki, Ibushi, SANADA, Shingo, Ospreay, ZSJ, et al, all trained elsewhere before working in New Japan. Naito and Tanahashi were dojo grads, but the former spent years in Mexico (as part of the excursion system and then a repackage), and Tanahashi worked extensively in NOAH and AJPW. They haven’t developed their main eventers in a bubble historically either, as everyone either went on excursions or toured with other companies.

There a is a difference between excursions, working relationships with other promotions, and coming from the indies. Excursions are part of the NJPW tradition and are done partially so guys can repackage after the young lion phase. Suzuki was trained by NJPW. He just left with the original UWF guys. And while NJPW has people coming from outside of the promotion that has been more a case from the last decade after they fell a good deal and had trouble getting young lions. Reality wise even with the changes they have they probably haven't brought in even half the amount of indy talent that WWE has the past five years. That isn't even going into how NJPW used to have guys who joined from the outside retrain in their dojo system before they accepted them. 

In general though Japanese promotions train the wrestlers from the ground up so they can know the specific style of the promotion itself. I don't really see why it bothers people that WWE supposedly wants do the same. I don't really see why those who hate the style and should know it won't change by now are bothered, especially when there are other noteworthy promotions to pick up their favorites now. It just feels like looking for a reason to be angry. 

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43 minutes ago, EVA said:

Honestly, that new NXT logo is way better than the grimdark redesign with all the skulls and shit. I remain confused as to who that was supposed to appeal to.

Triple H.

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2 hours ago, AxB said:

The thing about WWE is, it's monotonous and formulaic. And a lot of the best matches in recent WWE history have been good because they broke the formula. Which is going to be harder to do, with people who have never worked outside of it.

There’s an argument that WWF/E has always been this way.  80’s TV was 99% jobber squash matches.  PPV’s were mostly undercard house show returns with a marquee match on top.  
 

Through the years it was always big guys having formulaic matches supported by the IC (or below) level “workrate” guys.

This is the WWE-ay 

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17 minutes ago, Eivion said:

There a is a difference between excursions, working relationships with other promotions, and coming from the indies. Excursions are part of the NJPW tradition and are done partially so guys can repackage after the young lion phase. Suzuki was trained by NJPW. He just left with the original UWF guys. And while NJPW has people coming from outside of the promotion that has been more a case from the last decade after they fell a good deal and had trouble getting young lions. Reality wise even with the changes they have they probably haven't brought in even half the amount of indy talent that WWE has the past five years. That isn't even going into how NJPW used to have guys who joined from the outside retrain in their dojo system before they accepted them. 

In general though Japanese promotions train the wrestlers from the ground up so they can know the specific style of the promotion itself. I don't really see why it bothers people that WWE supposedly wants do the same. I don't really see why those who hate the style and should know it won't change by now are bothered, especially when there are other noteworthy promotions to pick up their favorites now. It just feels like looking for a reason to be angry. 

Sure, there’s a big difference between New Japan’s model and the US independent scene. But so too is there a big difference between that model and anything WWE has done, or might do.

Anyway, I don’t think anyone is objecting to the idea that WWE should look to sign impressive athletes and train them in their house-style. They unequivocally should do that. The objection is to the idea that the company should only do that, and (maybe, apparently) totally neglect other means of acquiring talent.

 

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