August 2021 Wrestling Discussion

[Eivion]

40 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Direct quote taken from your first reply:

Not sure how that comment could be seen as a shot at indys.

40 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

And to your second point, The Ringmaster sure found a way to break through the 1995 / 1996 bad booking and writing issues. I get that now and then isn't an apples to apples comparison. But you don't seem to get you're disqualifying a shit ton of really talented men & women with the potential to break through all of that due to experience and knowledge. They are point blank saying yes we know this is professional wrestling, but if you have even done professional wrestling you can not be a competent professional wrestler. It's asinine.

I don't think them not looking at indy talent is questioning their competence for professional wrestling so much as again not wanting to take the time to mold them into the WWE style. I also don't think its anymore disqualifying then your assumption of them being unable to find talented men and women if they do go the route of no longer looking at indy talent.

Also I thought women weren't involved in the planned changes?

40 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I disagree. It's not baseless speculation. It's going by exactly what they are saying and applying that to other time periods. If they had this same practice in place in the late 90s they wouldn't have hired Foley or Austin or Triple H or Kane. They would have hired a shit ton more of Brakkus. If you want to take a wait and see approach to it you're more than welcome to. But I'm sure as hell not interested in the timeline where they just hire 100 more Brakkus dudes and reject anyone that had previous experience from that era. And just as it's a crazy proposition for the 1990s, it's also a crazy proposition for the 2020s.

You keep going to this extreme that just isn't likely to be the reality of what they are trying to do or will do.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Eivion

[Kev]

Yeah, I’d back up what @Eivion and @Eoae are saying here. I think a couple of throwaway leaked comments about ‘no more vanilla midgets, only models now’, or whatever it was, have been taken way too literally. A quick google threw up recent comments from HHH and Samoa Joe where they talk about the ‘new’ policy and (while not denying it) they’re basically saying it doesn’t mean there’s suddenly some hard and fast rules about no Indy experience, nobody under 6ft or whatever. 

[Kang]

WWE stock back up to 52.00 USD +0.66 (1.29%)today. 

[John E. Dynamite]

Comparisons to the NJPW dojo are not totally on-base. Okada was trained by Ultimo Dragon in Mexico, Ibushi by MIKAMI in DDT, Shingo by CIMA and Animal Hamiguchi, Naito and EVIL both started out w/ Hamaguchi, hell, the last 1000% NJPW trueborn to hold the IWGP Championship that wasn't Tanahashi goes allll the way back to Togi Makabe. Even Satoshi Kojima was a Hamaguchi guy first.

Which brings up a really good fuckin' point and something WWE is going to have to realize again when their current strategy fails/gets changed by the company being sold or Vince's heart exploding - they had it right before. Having affiliated trainers and further-reaching developmental strategies went really well for them. Not even the OVW days, but back when they had Dory Funk and Memphis getting guys into shape and figuring out their gimmicks. This is your Animal Hamaguchi. Then you send the guys to NXT. This is your dojo/Young Lion system/finishing school. Fuck, they already have this with EVOLVE and Sapolsky and they just forgot on account of COVID.

There's also the other feeder fed they have, the one that never gets brought up. The money WWE is sitting on will be thrown at expiring AEW contracts. We don't know what WWE's strategy is going to look like outside of their instantaneous poaching of Ben Carter. Who's to say they won't be bloodthirsty? "No indy guys, we'll just overpay for talent Tony got TV-ready for us." And does WWE really think it's overpaying if it hurts a competitor?

Edited August 28, 2021 by John E. Dynamite

[John from Cincinnati]

13 minutes ago, Kev said:

I think a couple of throwaway leaked comments about ‘no more vanilla midgets, only models now’, or whatever it was, have been taken way too literally.

What do you mean too literal? WWE wants to be Marvel, starring nothing but young beefcake studs who've never seen wrestling before. And that's why the 2030s are going to suck. 

Here's some of the talk from Joe you alluded to in case anyone's interested:

Quote

“Vince says ‘hey, this is what we want’. But, the directives, it’s weird. They’ve been around forever. I worked for WWE in developmental when I very, very first started in California and these directives existed. 

“But, they change. It changes based on the needs of the company. It’s funny, I read the articles – I know exactly what you’re talking about – I read the outrage about the directive and I’m like, this is nothing different. 

“And then next week, the directive will be different. I think at this point, the track record of NXT and the hiring process has shown that. 

“There have been different cycles where different types of athletes come in. Everything from independent talents come in to just straight up athletes; these directives change and they shift basically on the needs of the company. 

“The directive right now is probably a little bit younger and looking for a little more athletic, which isn’t terrible whatsoever, but that directive will invariably shift as the needs as the company shifts. 

“So yeah, there is a directive, it comes from Vince, we all follow it and we get the job done for him. We’re happy to do so,” said Joe.

“It’s that simple by the way, too! There’s no other convolution to it,” Joe explained.

...

“It’s ‘we’re looking for this right now, can you get us this?’ Sure! We’re the talent department, we’ll go look for that. 

“It’s much like a casting agency if you’re in Hollywood. Then maybe a few months later he goes ‘ah, I need this, which is different from what I said before, can you get me that?’ And then we as a talent department goes ‘You know what? We can get you that!’ 

“Then we go out and we find him that. Yes, that is how it works. I hope I have demystified the process for everybody. 

“When you take the circumstances and you put it in some people’s imaginations, it’s a much more horrible process. But yeah, it’s as simple as that!”

https://talksport.com/sport/wrestling/933829/samoa-joe-vince-mcmahons-scouting-directive-recruitment-policy-wwe/

Not sounding all that scary to me. 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

To me, the more interesting story with regard to the NXT directives is the complete overhauling of the show. To me, it reads like a very public "This is no longer HHH's NXT." Neon colors and Wale are miles away from skulls and iron crosses and Motorhead. I could be off but it seems like a very clear rejection of that vision.

[SirSmUgly]

"Small-time" is true, not a shot at those indies. Most indies are "small-time."

I tend to agree with @NoFistsJustFlips though. I don't think the WWE house style is all bad, and I would guess that most people posting here would agree. It can produce great matches. I do think that wrestlers working their styles into that house style makes it more interesting, at least when it comes to big-time matches. If their focus is on people with no previous experience, it's going to take away from that.

But the other issue is stale match layout, which is really only one aspect of the house style. 

WWE TV hasn't been worth watching, match-wise, since before I stopped watching in 2016. The way they work around commercial breaks is awful. I will say, as an aside, that at the arena, some of the guys are more creative during those breaks and so the matches are better live. One example I'd give is Kevin Owens shit-talking the crowd and changing up the restholds while he shit-talked the crowd was entertaining. You could have been fooled into it not being a commercial break based on his staying active and doing good pro wrestling shit instead of just laying there for three minutes or w/e. 

But man, was the obvious layout of TV matches on RAW and Smackdown terrible back in the mid-10s. That's part of the reason that NXT weekly was such a breath of fresh air. The match layouts seemed more varied. 

 

[John from Cincinnati]

38 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

To me, the more interesting story with regard to the NXT directives is the complete overhauling of the show. To me, it reads like a very public "This is no longer HHH's NXT." Neon colors and Wale are miles away from skulls and iron crosses and Motorhead. I could be off but it seems like a very clear rejection of that vision.

Even if you're off, I don't want to know. I'm very much enjoying the mental image of Triple H being paraded nude through the thoroughfare while Nick Khan marches behind him ringing a bell and bellowing "Shame!"

Edited August 28, 2021 by John from Cincinnati

[Kang]

Vets like Joe and more are still around. So are the producers to help with the matches.

Khan said in interviews it's Triple new vision as well. People can have more than 1 vision.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Just now, D.Z said:

Khan said in interviews it's Triple new vision as well. 

[Kev]

NXT’s been in a bit of weird position, most obviously since 2019 with the TV deal, where they’ve kind of treated it as a 3rd brand, but it’s theoretically still developmental (while realistically it stopped being that years ago). I suppose they kind of tried to recreate their developmental structure with the likes of the Evolve deal, but that’s all fell apart (I don’t know whether that’s all on COVID or what). Basically, a re-think of the whole NXT/developmental structure was probably needed on a practical level, so boringly I don’t think this is the great political downfall of HHH that some are reading it to be.

[Dog]

1 hour ago, John E. Dynamite said:

There's also the other feeder fed they have, the one that never gets brought up. The money WWE is sitting on will be thrown at expiring AEW contracts. We don't know what WWE's strategy is going to look like outside of their instantaneous poaching of Ben Carter. Who's to say they won't be bloodthirsty? "No indy guys, we'll just overpay for talent Tony got TV-ready for us." And does WWE really think it's overpaying if it hurts a competitor?

They're going to overpay for midgets over 30 who don't know WWE style? That might hurt AEW, but I don't see how that helps WWE. They don't see AEW as a competitor, and I can't imagine that becoming more likely as their two presentations continue to diverge.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Carter couldn't legally work in the U.S., so of course he took the NXT UK deal.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Dog

[AxB]

Does this mean Poppy has to completely change her music and presentation style again?

Perhaps a return to this:

 

[twiztor]

2 hours ago, Eoae said:

Maybe we should wait to see how it plays out before rushing to judgment?

you know this is the internet, right?

[EVA]

2 hours ago, Eoae said:

Maybe we should wait to see how it plays out before rushing to judgment?

And there it is. 

[John E. Dynamite]

19 minutes ago, Dog said:

They're going to overpay for midgets over 30 who don't know WWE style? That might hurt AEW, but I don't see how that helps WWE. They don't see AEW as a competitor, and I can't imagine that becoming more likely as their two presentations continue to diverge.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Carter couldn't legally work in the U.S., so of course he took the NXT UK deal.

You at least attempt to "overpay" some guys that look like they'd fit. MJF, Wardlow, Hobbes, Both Pages, Griff 'n Brian Jr., Starks. Those are the only people I'd expect them to go after in the men's ranks. Maybe Anthony Bowens or the Bears.  I'm not in any way implying they're gonna sign Jack Evans for a million bucks and a truckload of cigs to crush the enemy's backstage morale.

[Shartnado]

2 hours ago, D.Z said:

WWE filed a trademark for "House of Monet".

You may not care, but I will be here for what ever "House of Monet" will be! Holy shit!

[Dog]

4 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

You at least attempt to "overpay" some guys that look like they'd fit. MJF, Wardlow, Hobbes, Both Pages, Griff 'n Brian Jr., Starks. Those are the only people I'd expect them to go after in the men's ranks. Maybe Anthony Bowens or the Bears.  I'm not in any way implying they're gonna sign Jack Evans for a million bucks and a truckload of cigs to crush the enemy's backstage morale.

Those guys still don't work WWE style. If we take them at their word (ha!), they're sick of retraining people.

And if I were any of those guys, I'd review the illustrious WWE tenure of one Ethan Carter III before making any drastic career decisions.

[John E. Dynamite]

17 minutes ago, Dog said:

Those guys still don't work WWE style. If we take them at their word (ha!), they're sick of retraining people.

And if I were any of those guys, I'd review the illustrious WWE tenure of one Ethan Carter III before making any drastic career decisions.

And yet none of them really work a bang-bang PWG Main Event kickout festival style, save for Hangman. In fact, he's the only guy to really be featured anywhere like RoH or NJPW. The WWE has opened up a chasm in their talent budget, there are 50+ less people being paid, of course they want AEW guys. This new business model  happens to double as a great smokescreen, it seems. I'm not saying everybody's going to take the deal, but if you think they're not going to wave money at some guys, you're living in a world you'd rather live in instead of the one that exists.

Edited August 28, 2021 by John E. Dynamite

[For Great Justice]

Not a WWE guy at all but I’m sort of confused by the “more Mark Jindraks” takes. Aren’t Big E and Bianca Belair far more recent and relevant examples of what they’re looking to produce? 

[Dog]

15 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

 I'm not saying everybody's going to take the deal, but if you think they're not going to wave money at some guys, you're living in a world you'd rather live in instead of the one that exists.

 

25 minutes ago, Dog said:

Those guys still don't work WWE style. If we take them at their word (ha!), they're sick of retraining people.

 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

I'm going to go ahead and step away from the conversation. I'm just not going to be able to express my point in a mature rational way conductive to continuing the conversation. I'll just leave it at this, hope no one on the other side of this conversation spends 18 years of their life working towards a life goal that just disappears over night.

[joseph2112]

So if I'm reading the new NXT edict right, WWE's popularity has waned because people do too many drop kicks and 2 3/4 kick outs? 

If you can't create compelling characters involved in compelling stories, it really doesn't matter how tall/good looking the workers are. 

[Ramo2653]

1 hour ago, Shartnado said:

You may not care, but I will be here for what ever "House of Monet" will be! Holy shit!

I assume that's going to be the name of Franky Monet's (fka Taya) stable with Robert Stone and Jessi Kamea.

 

Regarding the new directives, I'm glad they're reverting back because the men's scene was stale as hell and it wasn't going to change anytime soon. Also I don't think the new directives will change that much going on. I don't think that Mace, Jinder's goons, Angelo Dawkins, Montez Ford, Big E, Corbin, Gable, Azeez, Boa, Odyssey Jones, Top Dolla, Xyon Quinn (who just debuted on NXT) or Otis (granted he worked the indies for a year) wrestle the same. And on the women's side, Bianca, Carmella, Aaliyah, Dana, Mandy, Lacey, Nia, Alexa, Liv, Jessi Kamea, Kacy, Raquel and Xia don't all wrestle the same. There are spots you have to hit for TV purposes (they love the dive going into the break) but that's the nature of their production. 

But yeah give me new folks trying stuff out on TV and evolving instead of indy vets staying at the top of the card. And bring back Roar of the Crowd for the theme!

[Coletti]

11 minutes ago, joseph2112 said:

If you can't create compelling characters involved in compelling stories, it really doesn't matter how tall/good looking the workers are. 

This is it. They can fire and hire and train whomever whenever, 6'10 or 5'3, indyrific or Brakkus 2.0; nothing's getting better as long as they maintain the same stale writing, start-and-stop booking, cutting off talent at the knees when they start to get over, and all-around refuse to let anybody get "too big" since for WWE the brand is all they want to truly push. 

To paraphrase Nova/Simon Dean, the wrestlers are doing their job, why not fire the fucking writers?