August 2021 Wrestling Discussion

[bazzil]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2947773-riddle-talks-record-breaking-wwe-summerslam-rk-bro-brock-lesnar-reigns-more

 

It wasn't long after the news broke on Tuesday morning that he(Roman) took credit for SummerSlam's success because his bout with Cena was the headlining attraction. Of course, it was an in-character tweet, but there's no denying the roll he's on right now and how there is some truth to his tweet. Riddle reacted to Reigns' response in the only fashion he could: brutally honest.

“No disrespect to Roman, he seems like a swell fella, but at the same time, it's like when people say they're a good parent," he said. "You know what? If you were a good parent, your kids would be telling you you're a good parent. When he's saying 'Acknowledge me' or 'I move the needle,' no, you don't. You're related to The Rock. Shut up. Like, I'm not impressed, I can beat you up in a real fight. So, shut your mouth."

"You're not moving needles. I'm the real stallion, RK-Bro is moving the merch, we're moving the needle, and that's it. I don't want to say too much, I'm not trying to get in trouble. Hey, hats off to him. He's amazing at what he does. I do like what he does, but at the same time, it's like, get off your high horse. You're in that spot for a reason. You're not a bro. You're second generation. I'm first generation."

 

Edited August 28, 2021 by bazzil

[Shartnado]

10 minutes ago, bazzil said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2947773-riddle-talks-record-breaking-wwe-summerslam-rk-bro-brock-lesnar-reigns-more

 

It wasn't long after the news broke on Tuesday morning that he(Roman) took credit for SummerSlam's success because his bout with Cena was the headlining attraction. Of course, it was an in-character tweet, but there's no denying the roll he's on right now and how there is some truth to his tweet. Riddle reacted to Reigns' response in the only fashion he could: brutally honest.

“No disrespect to Roman, he seems like a swell fella, but at the same time, it's like when people say they're a good parent," he said. "You know what? If you were a good parent, your kids would be telling you you're a good parent. When he's saying 'Acknowledge me' or 'I move the needle,' no, you don't. You're related to The Rock. Shut up. Like, I'm not impressed, I can beat you up in a real fight. So, shut your mouth."

"You're not moving needles. I'm the real stallion, RK-Bro is moving the merch, we're moving the needle, and that's it. I don't want to say too much, I'm not trying to get in trouble. Hey, hats off to him. He's amazing at what he does. I do like what he does, but at the same time, it's like, get off your high horse. You're in that spot for a reason. You're not a bro. You're second generation. I'm first generation."

 

This guy just does not like to be in the clear! "What? I'm no longer in trouble? Here, hold my bong for a sec... There, that's better!"

[ReiseReise]

Riddle is such an idiot it's not even funny anymore. 

[Shartnado]

8 minutes ago, ReiseReise said:

Riddle is such an idiot it's not even funny anymore. 

Yeah, it's like you can't look away (or cover your ears) but you'd really want to!

[Guest Jimbo_Tsuruta]

The next umpteen weeks are going to be Roman spearing Riddle through every object imaginable while Matt is in his new gimmick The Ridd Rooster.

[Guest Jimbo_Tsuruta]

And tbh Riddle must be thankful for that since he really should be in prison after partaking in the following crime against humanity:

 

[Shartnado]

4 minutes ago, Jimbo_Tsuruta said:

The next umpteen weeks are going to be Roman spearing Riddle through every object imaginable while Matt is in his new gimmick The Ridd Rooster.

Ridd Rooster, The Smoky Chicken!

Oh, and the list of things he should be in prison for is not short.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Shartnado
That and other crimes...

[Jenalysis]

18 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Hulk Hogan had prior experience. Ric Flair had prior experience. The Undertaker had prior experience. Steve Austin had prior experience. John Cena had prior experience. Mick Foley had prior experience. Triple H had prior experience. Big Show had prior experience. Kane had prior experience. Batista had prior experience. Edge had prior experience. Becky Lynch had prior experience. Sasha Banks had prior experience. Bayley had prior experience. Gonna miss out on a lot of potential great additions to their roster with this stupid new plan.

I get that they have had some hits on training people from the ground up. I'm sure they count The Rock but that isn't fair because he's 2nd generation and learned a ton before they trained him. Same with Randy Orton. Kurt Angle & Brock Lesnar count but had a solid amateur wrestling base before WWE, so they already had half the physical part down. Even if you count all 4 of these guys, that was about 2 decades ago. OVW isn't a thing anymore. The only two big stars that come to mind from the NXT system that had no prior experience are... Charlotte & Reigns. Both of which... are second generation stars who absorbed a shit ton growing up.

Can anyone point to a legitimate instance of someone "moving the needle" having only been trained by NXT? Specifically someone that isn't a second or third generation athlete? Like seriously. Who are they trying to create? If it's Brocks & Angles... uhh okay you'll two or three shots with freak amateur athletes. if it's Charlotte & Reigns... uhh okay you'll have 5-10 chances on pro wrestler's offspring. But who the fuck did they ever make that didn't have any wrestling experience? Who is the biggest ground up name they produced through NXT? Big E? How many random athletes off the street have that personality and charisma? Of all the others like him, how many can be on Big E's level? 1 in 10? 1 in 100? 1 in 1,000?

This is stupid fucking policy and I will love watching it fail.
-Signed a wrestler with previous experience.

 

Even then Rock had time in Memphis, which was more like an excursion than a developmental.

 

I assume they're still gonna take the amateurs- Gable is a shoo-in to be signed after all after the Olympics.  This policy is going to flop- and if WWE goes all-in on this, we get the male version of Wrestlicious or GLOW.

[John from Cincinnati]

1 hour ago, bazzil said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2947773-riddle-talks-record-breaking-wwe-summerslam-rk-bro-brock-lesnar-reigns-more

 

It wasn't long after the news broke on Tuesday morning that he(Roman) took credit for SummerSlam's success because his bout with Cena was the headlining attraction. Of course, it was an in-character tweet, but there's no denying the roll he's on right now and how there is some truth to his tweet. Riddle reacted to Reigns' response in the only fashion he could: brutally honest.

“No disrespect to Roman, he seems like a swell fella, but at the same time, it's like when people say they're a good parent," he said. "You know what? If you were a good parent, your kids would be telling you you're a good parent. When he's saying 'Acknowledge me' or 'I move the needle,' no, you don't. You're related to The Rock. Shut up. Like, I'm not impressed, I can beat you up in a real fight. So, shut your mouth."

"You're not moving needles. I'm the real stallion, RK-Bro is moving the merch, we're moving the needle, and that's it. I don't want to say too much, I'm not trying to get in trouble. Hey, hats off to him. He's amazing at what he does. I do like what he does, but at the same time, it's like, get off your high horse. You're in that spot for a reason. You're not a bro. You're second generation. I'm first generation."

 

"If you really moved the needle, you wouldn't need to say it yourself.

"Also: I move the needle."

[odessasteps]

Presumably, they’re still going to want second/third generation workers. 

[The Natural]

2 hours ago, bazzil said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2947773-riddle-talks-record-breaking-wwe-summerslam-rk-bro-brock-lesnar-reigns-more

 

It wasn't long after the news broke on Tuesday morning that he(Roman) took credit for SummerSlam's success because his bout with Cena was the headlining attraction. Of course, it was an in-character tweet, but there's no denying the roll he's on right now and how there is some truth to his tweet. Riddle reacted to Reigns' response in the only fashion he could: brutally honest.

“No disrespect to Roman, he seems like a swell fella, but at the same time, it's like when people say they're a good parent," he said. "You know what? If you were a good parent, your kids would be telling you you're a good parent. When he's saying 'Acknowledge me' or 'I move the needle,' no, you don't. You're related to The Rock. Shut up. Like, I'm not impressed, I can beat you up in a real fight. So, shut your mouth."

"You're not moving needles. I'm the real stallion, RK-Bro is moving the merch, we're moving the needle, and that's it. I don't want to say too much, I'm not trying to get in trouble. Hey, hats off to him. He's amazing at what he does. I do like what he does, but at the same time, it's like, get off your high horse. You're in that spot for a reason. You're not a bro. You're second generation. I'm first generation."

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2021 by The Natural

[Spontaneous]

Riddle's just grabbing the brass ring. He's been rewarded every time he's done similar stunts before.

[Eivion]

20 minutes ago, Spontaneous said:

Riddle's just grabbing the brass ring. He's been rewarded every time he's done similar stunts before.

Except for when he was finally told by Heyman he will never get feud/match with Brock. 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

15 hours ago, Eivion said:

Except people have been bemoaning them signing and treatment of indy talent for a while and with AEW and others around I'm not sure why they want any of their favorites in WWE at this point anyways.

This is probably the best explanation I have seen for this though many here kind of give the impression they have always hated WWE half the time save for this one person/period here.

Except this is a pretty shitty comparison. They aren't finding randoms with no interest. They are going after people with athletic backgrounds who do have an interest. Just because they went to WWE first instead of going to a small time indy to work their way up doesn't really mean their dedication and hard work is any less per say.

That last comment is a pretty good example of what has been talked about people who aren't anti-WWE getting insulted for it. Can you honestly say there was a real point to that other than to try and piss me off?

I'll start out by addressing my last comment. You are allowed to like what you like. It's a bit baffling to me personally that you are carrying water for this new policy. But even still I shouldn't have taken the Stockholm Syndrome shot. I apologize. In my head that wasn't me taking a shot at what you like (on screen) and was me taking a shot at you being okay with this (crazy) new hiring policy. But taking shots at all is unnecessary.


"They aren't finding randoms with no interest." They are actually. You don't remember the stories of Johnny Ace going through modeling catalogs looking for attractive people to hire in the late 00s? Sure there are athletes that aspire to be wrestlers that can apply and get a shot in a tryout. But this new policy is also very similar to the old policy. Find people with the look and train them from the ground up. My actual point is, they aren't good at doing that. And if you disagree I'm gonna need some examples from you. Big E & Bianca are about the only ones I can come up with who are good and have no real previous experience. But Big E & Bianca are two names out of probably 200 attempts at this point.

My point about previous experience still stands. Are you okay with losing out on potential Stone Colds, Undertakers, Mick Foleys, ect? Those diamonds in the rough that could be mega stars with a few character tweaks or given the right gimmick. You're not gonna get any of those anymore. You're gonna get 1,000 Ricky Ortiz dudes. 1,000 Omos dudes. 1,000 Candace Michelles. Bland people with no knowledge of what to do in certain situations when they have to deviate from the plan. They have no knowledge or experience to listen to a crowd and change up what is happening to get that reaction. You can take a shot at "small time indys" or whatever (which I find offensive), but the point remains getting real reps where you're own you own to figure out what works or doesn't work is far more valuable than having a script to follow and when that doesn't work panicking and having them call the match for you from the back, through communicating with the ref's IFB.

If this policy was live in the 80s you wouldn't have gotten Hogan or Savage or Piper. In the 90s no Bret Hart, or Shawn Michaels or Steve Austin. In the 2000s no Cena, no CM Punk, no Daniel Bryan. We'll never know what awesome dudes we lose out on in the 2020s & 2030s because they won't exist.

[Shartnado]

10 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Except for when he was finally told by Heyman he will never get feud/match with Brock. 

If he could actually do it, like he claims, I wouldn't mind him fucking up Brock for real once those 8 matches of his new contract are done and perhaps getting locked up for that. He would get to not only fullfill his legacy but pay his debt to society, all in one go.

[Ultimo Necro]

It’s almost like wrestling is required to have a quota of at least 1 massive douchebag that says “Bro” way too much.

That said, I’ve quite enjoyed RK-Bro but I think that’s more to do with Randy’s moustache.

[Spontaneous]

18 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Except for when he was finally told by Heyman he will never get feud/match with Brock. 

Doesn't seem to have shut him up.

[Shartnado]

2 minutes ago, Ultimo Necro said:

It’s almost like wrestling is required to have a quota of at least 1 massive douchebag that says “Bro” way too much.

That said, I’ve quite enjoyed RK-Bro but I think that’s more to do with Randy’s moustache.

We haven't seen the document, but yeah, that's probably written in blood somewhere.

[John from Cincinnati]

I'm kind of amazed people still have the energy to get this excited about a change in WWE's recruitment philosophy. 

[Eivion]

14 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

"They aren't finding randoms with no interest." They are actually. You don't remember the stories of Johnny Ace going through modeling catalogs looking for attractive people to hire in the late 00s? Sure there are athletes that aspire to be wrestlers that can apply and get a shot in a tryout. But this new policy is also very similar to the old policy. Find people with the look and train them from the ground up. My actual point is, they aren't good at doing that. And if you disagree I'm gonna need some examples from you. Big E & Bianca are about the only ones I can come up with who are good and have no real previous experience. But Big E & Bianca are two names out of probably 200 attempts at this point.

Why are you going back 13-16 years ago to Ace looking for models? I'm talking about all the training camps they have been doing since the PC was established. Pretty sure most if not all of the non-wrestlers from these have been athletes. I think Angle, Corbin, Ford, Dawkins, Braun, etc. were/are pretty talented though mileage may very depending on what you are looking for.

21 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

My point about previous experience still stands. Are you okay with losing out on potential Stone Colds, Undertakers, Mick Foleys, ect? Those diamonds in the rough that could be mega stars with a few character tweaks or given the right gimmick. You're not gonna get any of those anymore. You're gonna get 1,000 Ricky Ortiz dudes. 1,000 Omos dudes. 1,000 Candace Michelles. Bland people with no knowledge of what to do in certain situations when they have to deviate from the plan. They have no knowledge or experience to listen to a crowd and change up what is happening to get that reaction. You can take a shot at "small time indys" or whatever (which I find offensive), but the point remains getting real reps where you're own you own to figure out what works or doesn't work is far more valuable than having a script to follow and when that doesn't work panicking and having them call the match for you from the back, through communicating with the ref's IFB.

The problem is everything you are saying roots in baseless speculation from the idea that no one of that level will turn up purely because they are limiting what they are looking for, to the idea that we would get people of that level for sure w/o limits even with WWE's current general booking/writing issues, to idea that knowledge and experience won't be picked up working in WWE. 

I should say I do prefer they stay more open to indy talent. I'm just willing to wait and see where the supposed new approach goes before I hate it. Also I don't think I ever took a shot at indys so I'm not sure where that came.

[AxB]

1 hour ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

 We'll never know what awesome dudes we lose out on in the 2020s & 2030s because they won't exist.

They'll exist in Wrestling. But not in the WWE, apparently.

[Sublime]

The problem with WWE training guys with no experience is, to me, the fact that history shows they only train guys to work one way. Which leads to bland homogenized wrestling. You need wrestlers with different backgrounds to have guys with their own styles. This is one place where the comparison to the Japan dojo’s doesn’t hold water because those places train to work house style but to also let the trainees to work in ways that match their strengths and also they don’t train out the new aspects that they gain on excursion. Even with guys like Brookside at the PC their not showing that their from ground up trainees are any different from the guys how they produced through OVW. All pretty much the same from look to style to promos. Wrestling needs guys learning to adapt and change and have the ability to wrestle a way that matches their personality. 
 

Maybe things will be different but the past shows that this will probably turn out a certain way and people are right to be wary. This won’t really affect me cause I haven’t watched WWE since 2018 and probably won’t start again anytime soon 

[Kang]

WWE notes

There have been increases in attendances and merch for markets Smackdown visited in USA thanks to being on FOX.  Even before covid. Raw is truly the B show now.

WWE filed a trademark for "House of Monet".

The Fiend continues to receive new merchandise. However the puppets and the Bray character and his show are certainly all dead.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

 

45 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Also I don't think I ever took a shot at indys so I'm not sure where that came.

Direct quote taken from your first reply:

16 hours ago, Eivion said:

Just because they went to WWE first instead of going to a small time indy to work their way up doesn't really mean their dedication and hard work is any less per say.

 

47 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Why are you going back 13-16 years ago to Ace looking for models? I'm talking about all the training camps they have been doing since the PC was established. Pretty sure most if not all of the non-wrestlers from these have been athletes. I think Angle, Corbin, Ford, Dawkins, Braun, etc. were/are pretty talented though mileage may very depending on what you are looking for.

The training camps they have run since the performance center has been in operation had been diverse camps that had some athletes with no experience, rookies that have been fully trained with a solid look, and veteran talent from all over. Even the one they did in Vegas last week had some actual professional wrestlers in it. Going by their own wording, that's not how they are going to do it anymore. Again the exact phrase is find people with the look and train them from the ground up. That's exactly what they were doing 13-16 years ago all the way up until Triple H took lead and created the performance center. That hasn't been what they've been doing since 2013ish. While they have signed some people with no experience since then, that wasn't their *only focus* like it will be now.

 

52 minutes ago, Eivion said:

The problem is everything you are saying roots in baseless speculation from the idea that no one of that level will turn up purely because they are limiting what they are looking for, to the idea that we would get people of that level for sure w/o limits even with WWE's current general booking/writing issues, to idea that knowledge and experience won't be picked up working in WWE.

I disagree. It's not baseless speculation. It's going by exactly what they are saying and applying that to other time periods. If they had this same practice in place in the late 90s they wouldn't have hired Foley or Austin or Triple H or Kane. They would have hired a shit ton more of Brakkus. If you want to take a wait and see approach to it you're more than welcome to. But I'm sure as hell not interested in the timeline where they just hire 100 more Brakkus dudes and reject anyone that had previous experience from that era. And just as it's a crazy proposition for the 1990s, it's also a crazy proposition for the 2020s.

And to your second point, The Ringmaster sure found a way to break through the 1995 / 1996 bad booking and writing issues. I get that now and then isn't an apples to apples comparison. But you don't seem to get you're disqualifying a shit ton of really talented men & women with the potential to break through all of that due to experience and knowledge. They are point blank saying yes we know this is professional wrestling, but if you have even done professional wrestling you can not be a competent professional wrestler. It's asinine.

[Eoae]

As much as WWE has spent to upgrade facilities and training over he past 7-10 years, it seems unlikely that the company wants to roll back match quality to the late 90's/early 2000's.  The focus the past few years has been on indie talent, but they've brought in people from other backgrounds and been fairly successful with a lot of them.  

Personally, I think you'll still see indie guys getting contracts, but it will be more lesser known guys with a look they like and less "let's sign this guy because the PWG crowds like him". 

It doesn't have to be an either/or situation.  WWE can look elsewhere for talent without completely tanking the product.  I'm not convinced the new focus will work out well for them, but I'm not convinced it won't.  Maybe we should wait to see how it plays out before rushing to judgment?

Edited August 28, 2021 by Eoae