August 2021 Wrestling Discussion

[Craig H]

1 minute ago, Matt D said:

Til the kid put something in the wrong hamper.

Oh, hmm, forgot about that stuff. 

[The Great ML]

On 8/25/2021 at 10:54 AM, joseph2112 said:

After Steph introduced the world to women's sports, she wanted to start the LGBT revolution.

Andre the Giant's Friend™ is changing the world. 

[AxB]

More Minoru Suzuki USA tour match announcements:

vs Daniel Garcia, vs Homicide, a tag on NJPW Strong w/ Lance Archer vs Tom Lawler and somebody (iirc), vs Calvin Tankman, and vs ..... Davey Richards!

Going to be an interesting few weeks, that.

[BobbyWhioux]

9 hours ago, The Natural said:

Check this out. The History of the WWF Championship in figure form!

At last the Stan Stasiak figure I’ve always wanted but never dared dream of

[Eoae]

How long has Davey Richards been taking dates?

Did he finish medical school?

Edited August 26, 2021 by Eoae

[odessasteps]

7 minutes ago, BobbyWhioux said:

At last the Stan Stasiak figure I’ve always wanted but never dared dream of

Heart Punch action 

[Infinit]

2 minutes ago, Eoae said:

How long has Davey Richards been taking dates?

Did he finish medical school?

He signed with MLW in May...not sure how long he's been taking indy dates.

[Cobra Commander]

3 hours ago, BobbyWhioux said:

we'd have to count on them to have learned from their mistakes with Muhammed Hassan (strike one), apply those lessons to the same character but queer instead of muslim, and not panic into a quick change when it doesn't immediately get the desired reaction (strike two), because it would still rely on their getting a significant portion of their audience [EDIT: To Accept] that it is in fact the heel (BIG SWING AND A MISS at the slider in the dirt for Strike Three)

Considering that Marc Copani is of Italian ancestry, there was probably no hope that Hassan wasn't eventually gonna get fucked up.

Not sure what the example is for a lgbt-ish type in a major promotion that was handled the closest to 'right'...

[caley]

5 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

Considering that Marc Copani is of Italian ancestry, there was probably no hope that Hassan wasn't eventually gonna get fucked up.

Not sure what the example is for a lgbt-ish type in a major promotion that was handled the closest to 'right'...

The closest might be Dalton Castle who was never presented out and out as "gay" but came to the ring with two scantily-clad men whom he referred to as his "boys", often used them as furniture to sit on when doing interviews. IIRC, he was briefly a heel, but the crowd quickly turned him face, he feuded with Silas Young over his "lifestyle" but ended up defeating him and eventually becoming World Champion (Unfortunately, he was so physically decimated by this point that his reign was rather short and lackluster). Now I don't know if Castle is LGBT himself or just playing it up, and the character wasn't out and out LGBT but I'd say he's the LGBT-ish wrestling character that was handled the best.

[BobbyWhioux]

16 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

Considering that Marc Copani is of Italian ancestry, there was probably no hope that Hassan wasn't eventually gonna get fucked up.

Not sure what the example is for a lgbt-ish type in a major promotion that was handled the closest to 'right'...

Honestly I think it’s how DeVille is used now. The Amanda Bearse style “quietly out”

The bar is low

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

44 minutes ago, caley said:

The closest might be Dalton Castle who was never presented out and out as "gay" but came to the ring with two scantily-clad men whom he referred to as his "boys", often used them as furniture to sit on when doing interviews. IIRC, he was briefly a heel, but the crowd quickly turned him face, he feuded with Silas Young over his "lifestyle" but ended up defeating him and eventually becoming World Champion (Unfortunately, he was so physically decimated by this point that his reign was rather short and lackluster). Now I don't know if Castle is LGBT himself or just playing it up, and the character wasn't out and out LGBT but I'd say he's the LGBT-ish wrestling character that was handled the best.

I hesitate to play into any kind of camp tropes because wrestling does not have the strongest track record in doing those well. And really, I think it says a lot that people cite the best example of a LGBTQ character portrayed well is someone playing into camp tropes, except they win their matches.

Perhaps it's because people who are LGBTQ and don't play into those tropes often don't get noted as LGBTQ characters within wrestling. Frankly, I'd much rather see that. LGBTQ representation, to me, is far more important as LGBTQ people existing without having to play into what cis/hetero people think LGBTQ people are.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Stefanie the Human

[Cobra Commander]

41 minutes ago, BobbyWhioux said:

Honestly I think it’s how DeVille is used now. The Amanda Bearse style “quietly out”

The bar is low

and there is a slightly different standard for how people view lesbian women compared to gay men, especially in a sporting context

[Zakk_Sabbath]

4 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

Perhaps it's because people who are LGBTQ and don't play into those tropes often don't get noted as LGBTQ characters within wrestling. Frankly, I'd much rather see that. LGBTQ representation, to me, is far more important as LGBTQ people existing without having to play into what people think LGBTQ people are.

That's actually a really, really great point. Like, rather than some contrived likely poor-taste angle, maybe they could tell a more powerful story by having a person win a big match, kiss their same-sex partner in the front row to celebrate, and never bring it up again just like they've done with countless straight couples. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

7 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

That's actually a really, really great point. Like, rather than some contrived likely poor-taste angle, maybe they could tell a more powerful story by having a person win a big match, kiss their same-sex partner in the front row to celebrate, and never bring it up again just like they've done with countless straight couples. 

To me, it's a bit crazy that a sport like MMA with a super conservative leaning fanbase has had better representation than pro wrestling. Granted, it's been mostly lesbian couples like Amanda Nunes and her wife Nina Nunes (fka Nina Ansaroff), Raquel Pennington and Tecia Torres, Jessica Andrade and her wife, etc. They've been pretty much celebrated within MMA circles and on UFC broadcasts. After the Fallon Fox debacle, I would have never suspected something like this. Then again, that could be attributed to skepticism towards trans athletes especially in combat sports that hasn't been resolved in comparison.

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

1 minute ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

To me, it's a bit crazy that a sport like MMA with a super conservative leaning fanbase has had better representation than pro wrestling. Granted, it's been mostly lesbian couples like Amanda Nunes and her wife Nina Nunes (fka Nina Ansaroff), Raquel Pennington and Tecia Torres, Jessica Andrade and her wife, etc. They've been pretty much celebrated within MMA circles and on UFC broadcasts. After the Fallon Fox debacle, I would have never suspected something like this. Then again, that could be attributed to skepticism towards trans athletes especially in combat sports that hasn't been resolved in comparison.

Lesbians have always been the most accepted letter of the LGBTQ initialism. Even most staunch conservatives tend to be like "well two women smooching is okay". (Until, of course, it comes time to vote to grant them equal rights. I'd expand on this, but there's a reason we don't have a politics folder.)

Just wait until your first gay male UFC fighter kissing his boyfriend and you'll get the uproar you expected slash saw re: Fallon Fox.

[Elsalvajeloco]

24 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

Lesbians have always been the most accepted letter of the LGBTQ initialism. Even most staunch conservatives tend to be like "well two women smooching is okay". (Until, of course, it comes time to vote to grant them equal rights. I'd expand on this, but there's a reason we don't have a politics folder.)

Just wait until your first gay male UFC fighter kissing his boyfriend and you'll get the uproar you expected slash saw re: Fallon Fox.

I can definitely understand, but I think with the people I named specifically...I think those fighters (especially Amanda Nunes and Andrade since they're current and former champs respectively) are grandfathered in almost. They had identities before they were out openly. Amanda Nunes has been fighting on national TV since about 2011/2012 which is a LONG time in MMA years. You compare that to the flack that WNBA athletes have caught because they're not well known (although in the last five or six years, you can name a bunch of WNBA players who currently play), it's no contest. They haven't gotten that type of acceptance outside of their hardcore fanbase. Part of the issue I guess with that is people expect female basketball players to look like they jumped off the cover of King Magazine whereas female fighters are expected to be more masculine. 

Do I expect the first openly gay male UFC fighter to catch the hell Michael Sams initially got? Yes and no. I think there is a section of the fanbase that will flip their lids. At the same time, what got the flames going and stoked with Fallox Fox is UFC and MMA adjacent big personalities getting the ball rolling spewing garbage. The same goes with Dana White mocking the way Cris Cyborg walks and saying she looked like Wanderlei Silva. You get folks to play enabler, and it's going to be a disaster. People within the MMA media (which is saying something cause MMA media is still kinda low on the sports media totem pole) and more importantly, the people that cut them their checks took them to task. There hasn't been anything close to that since. Why? Too much money involved. Sucks that it takes hundreds of millions of dollars for people to not be shitty human beings (or at least for a brief moment not to be), but that's what it came to. There will be some backlash and obligatory ignorance given the fanbase, but it will eventually subside. 

And that's the crazy thing to me with wrestling. A company like WWE wouldn't have that type of response, and they refuse to even go in that direction.

[Cobra Commander]

a news story referenced on the Cornette Drive Thru

Walls City Alderman Downtown Bruno

Edited August 26, 2021 by Cobra Commander

[AxB]

Another Suzuki match announcement: GCW in Los Angeles, 17th September. vs Johnathon Gresham.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

45 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

And that's the crazy thing to me with wrestling. A company like WWE wouldn't have that type of response, and they refuse to even go in that direction.

I don't know if I've ever told this story here, but the WWF's awful handling of these types of things kind of indirectly led to a real teachable moment in my childhood. I was in the dugout during a city little league game, and my friend Wayne, in the course of an otherwise normal conversation about that morning's Superstars, goes "Goldust a (bundle of sticks)!" My coach, to his credit (I say that because this was only '95 or '96 and it's not a real tolerant area to begin with) completely shut down the entire team and told us all that homophobia wouldn't be tolerated under any circumstances and so I've carried that ever since. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I don't know if I've ever told this story here, but the WWF's awful handling of these types of things kind of indirectly led to a real teachable moment in my childhood. I was in the dugout during a city little league game, and my friend Wayne, in the course of an otherwise normal conversation about that morning's Superstars, goes "Goldust a (bundle of sticks)!" My coach, to his credit (I say that because this was only '95 or '96 and it's not a real tolerant area to begin with) completely shut down the entire team and told us all that homophobia wouldn't be tolerated under any circumstances and so I've carried that ever since. 

It still bothers me that Ross and Prichard still try to play coy about the Goldust stuff during that time. Is it that hard to say you went way too far? No one wants to take responsibility. 

[A_K]

WWE already did a Lesbian angle w/ Eric Bischoff? Is this one no longer part of WWE Universe lore?

[kafkonia]

2 hours ago, Stefanie the Human said:

I hesitate to play into any kind of camp tropes because wrestling does not have the strongest track record in doing those well. And really, I think it says a lot that people cite the best example of a LGBTQ character portrayed well is someone playing into camp tropes, except they win their matches.

Perhaps it's because people who are LGBTQ and don't play into those tropes often don't get noted as LGBTQ characters within wrestling. Frankly, I'd much rather see that. LGBTQ representation, to me, is far more important as LGBTQ people existing without having to play into what cis/hetero people think LGBTQ people are.

In that case, Darren Young? He came out as gay and nothing about his presentation changed IIRC.

Edited August 27, 2021 by kafkonia
Better wording.

[supremebve]

I think you guys are missing the forest for the trees here.  Someone's sexual orientation isn't a character trait.  Seriously, Hulk Hogan could be gay, and it wouldn't change the character at all.  Steve Austin could have been gay, and nothing would be different.  If the Rock would have never mentioned his affinity for poon tang pie, could have played the same character and been gayer than Liberace.  Shawn Michaels...he pretty much played a male stripper and that is about as predominantly gay of an occupation that exists.  If you expect Vince McMahon of all people to create a subtly gay character that addresses LGBTQ issues in an intelligent way, you are asking for trouble.  

Of course someone posts exactly my point while I was typing this up.

Edited August 27, 2021 by supremebve
Pointing out my bad timing

[Elsalvajeloco]

24 minutes ago, supremebve said:

 Shawn Michaels...he pretty much played a male stripper and that is about as predominantly gay of an occupation that exists.  

I would say the male stripper thing was extremely time sensitive in terms of a gimmick just like the rap thing w/ a PN News or somebody like that. Being a male stripper/escort (or dick dancer as Ric Flair calls it) in 90-95 and even a little before that was the default gimmick if you couldn't think of anything else and had a mildly decent body. Not only did you have Shawn, you had Scotty the Body, Marcus Bagwell as The Handsome Stranger and in the American Males, Scott Hall as The Diamond Studd looking he was injecting Dianabol into his body by the gallon, Tommy Dreamer before he did the caning thing with Sandman in 94, Rick Rude, Brutus Beefcake before the Barber gimmick, etc. Then, by the mid 90s it got played out (see Bret Hart ridiculing Shawn for posing for a magazine that gay men predominantly purchase). Keep in mind, this is an era where the girls did swoon after guys like that. In the afterwards, it meant something entirely different when the matinee idol/heartthrob stuff was no more save for The Hardy Boyz. 

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

25 minutes ago, supremebve said:

If the Rock would have never mentioned his affinity for poon tang pie, could have played the same character and been gayer than Liberace.

Still could have been. A lot of gay men brag about their enjoyment of that sort of thing in an attempt to pass for straight. Or he could be bi. *shrug*

It's sort of like how I used to pretend to really be into stereotypically masculine tropes to throw people off my actual interests, back when I didn't think I was really a woman since I didn't know being trans was a thing. (And, subsequently, when I did know it was a thing, I didn't know it was a thing I could be.)