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Bask in Raw's Glory - 7/19/2021


Dolfan in NYC
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Plenty of wrestlers from other companies congratulating Nikki on social media, guess it is time to punish her and make her lose if what I read in this thread is true

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2 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

Plenty of wrestlers from other companies congratulating Nikki on social media, guess it is time to punish her and make her lose if what I read in this thread is true

Nah, not until Big Damo makes a surprise AEW debut against Cody!

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It's true that Nikki hasn't really been pushed as better as anyone, but you have to remember that this is the company that last year tried to sincerely put over Lana by having her a Survivor Series match she did nothing in - and where Jeff Hardy just cheated to beat Kross. A win's a win in WWE, most of the time. You win MITB, you're allowed to jump the champ after they've wrestled a match - it's basically what you're supposed to do.

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36 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

Plenty of wrestlers from other companies congratulating Nikki on social media, guess it is time to punish her and make her lose if what I read in this thread is true

If she sees SummerSlam as champion, I'll gladly be wrong, and this has nothing to do with anyone congratulating her from beyond the confines of WWE Universe...

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3 hours ago, Craig H said:

The Keith Lee thing is what bothers me most though. How many fucking JAGs do they have in catering that Lashley could have essentially squashed? Lee has been out for for more than half a year, he comes back without any promotion or build up, and he immediately loses to Lashley when you could put Lee against anyone else for a win. 

It is fucking maddening. I'm not even sure if there's a point to me watching NXT anymore. Everyone there is in a dead end. 

Like, I have way too many fucking questions about what happened and why. 

I think he's leaving and they fed him to Lashley on his way out the door. Outdated thinking that MUHAHAHAHA HE'S USELESS TO ANY FED NOW THAT HE GOT PINNED! *twirls mustache*

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8 hours ago, Hail Sabin said:

Vince probably had Kross losing tonight as a shot to HHH for losing the Wednesday Night WAR to AEW. 

Excited to see Vince job out his own champions when Dynamite starts getting higher ratings than Raw.

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1 hour ago, John from Cincinnati said:

The swing in consensus on Kross from merciless declarations of "this guy is the drizzling shits" to "how dare they drive this bus over him" is too funny. People are wild. 

Couple things...We all still don't think Kross is this good, but more he has an act more suited for the main roster. Then they kept him unbeaten for a full year and basically put him over the entire NXT roster. We long knew he would be brought up and figured if you invested that much in him and Scarlett then, you knew, he wouldn't lose in under 2 minutes in his debut or he would get a build up to his debut. Instead it was, welp, he's here tonight, then he comes out without his entrance or Scarlett. The whole thing is completely bizarre and frustrating. Like, whatever, he's a dork with a giant Molon Labe tattoo and fuck him, but it's the principle of the matter.

As puzzling is the absence of Scarlett. There aren't much bigger creeps than Vince, Bruce, and Kevin Dunn. And Scarlett probably has more upside than Kross. It all seems like leaving money on the table and setting that table on fire.

I also wonder what USA would think. This is the guy that has dominated NXT and been the kinda sorta face of the show for a year and they straight up kill him off on one Monday night.

1 hour ago, Pete said:

I think he's leaving and they fed him to Lashley on his way out the door. Outdated thinking that MUHAHAHAHA HE'S USELESS TO ANY FED NOW THAT HE GOT PINNED! *twirls mustache*

That's the impression I got, but then again, he's such a special talent that I don't know how you could just release him. Plus, I figured he'd still have a lot of time left on that contract and after seeing what AEW is doing with Black and Miro, why give them a guy that might be more talented than both of them? 

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1 hour ago, John from Cincinnati said:

The swing in consensus on Kross from merciless declarations of "this guy is the drizzling shits" to "how dare they drive this bus over him" is too funny. People are wild. 

Someone being the DS's and not liking the way they they are booked are two different things! This guy sucks in the ring sure, to some of his viewers, but still a psycho is booking him in a different way that I or more than one of us would be booking is a real evil thing that is happening at this point and we are all watching this evil thing happen! That's evil. And you are watching it happen. So there.

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Are they maybe not using Scarlet because they think two hot blonde occultist gimmicks would be too many? Seems a shame if so, they could just have gone all in with Alexa ridiculousness and had her summon Kross and Scarlet from a haunted tea set or something.

Personally, I've always quite liked Kross in NXT, at least he stands out there, and as big goofs go he's perfectly serviceable. With his whole act in tow he could have done well on the main roster, but this was just baffling.

I watched Raw for the first time in months because it at least looked set to be eventful, and yeah, what a disgrace. It was an easy watch because it had returns, a debut and a title change, but they can't do that every week, and the basic booking logic and presentation is still rancid nonsense.

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Listened to a couple min of Meltzer and Alvarez on Youtube this morning.  Dave thinks Vince had Kross job to make some sort bizarre only-in-Vince's-mind point that he can job anyone out then rebuild them the week after and it won't do damage in the long run.  FWIW, Dave disagrees and thinks that jobbing the NXT champion out does a lot of damage to both Kross and the brand.

I didn't watch the match, but I did flip back just after the match ended to catch the replay of the finish, followed by Kross pitching a fit and grabbing the NXT title off the announcer's table.  Oy vey.  I don't really care that Kross jobbed - not a fan - but I feel like the lasting impression of the segment is going to be the shot of Kross walking off with the NXT belt after jobbing to a midcarder they don't do much with anymore.  Fans will forget pretty quickly that Kross jobbed to Hardy in his main roster debut.  Most of us will be more likely to remember that Kross jobbed to Hardy in his RAW debut after commentary put over how he went a year+ without being losing and was still NXT champion when he got called up.

I also think Vince is underestimating how much Kross needs Scarlet.  Though I am curious to see what they do with her if they call him up and leave her in NXT.

Edited by Eoae
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"Look, I know I still think this guy is just an entrance and a manager. But I didn't want him booked in a way that actually reflects how shitty I think he is! Umm... I don't like him, but he seemed to be a fit for the main rosterwhich never seems to be a compliment" seems to be the prevailing mood. There is no principle of the matter. If the dingdongs in charge decided they see him the way most vocal internet fans see him, the people in histrionics about them potentially cutting bait are working themselves up over someone they don't even care about. Just bizarre. But any chance to scream about the boogeymen doing these bad things to people who let's be honest we don't really think ought to be presented as a star, 'cause they suck good lord are they boring when does Joe choke him out.

And just in case anyone is precious about such things, anything about protecting the C-show belt in a company with 800 worthless belts gets the hardest possible eye-roll.

13 minutes ago, Eoae said:

Fans will forget pretty quickly that Kross jobbed to Hardy in his main roster debut.  

Fans will. The narrative won't. 

Edited by John from Cincinnati
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6 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

"Look, I know I still think this guy is just an entrance and a manager. But I didn't want him booked in a way that actually reflects how shitty I think he is! Umm... I don't like him, but he seemed to be a fit for the main rosterwhich never seems to be a compliment" seems to be the prevailing mood. There is no principle of the matter. If the dingdongs in charge decided they see him the way most vocal internet fans see him, the people in histrionics about them potentially cutting bait are working themselves up over someone they don't even care about. Just bizarre. But any chance to scream about the boogeymen doing these bad things to people who let's be honest we don't really think ought to be presented as a star, 'cause they suck good lord are they boring when does Joe choke him out.

And just in case anyone is precious about such things, anything about protecting the C-show belt in a company with 800 worthless belts gets the hardest possible eye-roll.

Fans will. The narrative won't. 

This is good. I admit, this is really good. There is no way I'm arguing with this.

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It will be amusing if Vince is just screwing with fans and never intends to call Kross up.

Although NXT doesn't need another lifer at the moment.  My big issue with the NXT uppercard is there's not a lot of room for new faces once you give Cole, Gargano, Ciampa, O'Reilly and a few others their tv time.

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9 minutes ago, Eoae said:

It will be amusing if Vince is just screwing with fans and never intends to call Kross up.

Although NXT doesn't need another lifer at the moment.  My big issue with the NXT uppercard is there's not a lot of room for new faces once you give Cole, Gargano, Ciampa, O'Reilly and a few others their tv time.

At this point, anything that just fucks with NXT, would not surprise me. Yeah, the top of NXT (male) card is logjammed as bad as anything I've seen since WWF  Summer of  '91, (until SummerSlam cleared a bit of it up, as Warrior got fired and Perfect was injured.) You are right, though, TV time is scarce as fuck at this point!

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Aren’t there RUMBLINGZ that NXT is viewed internally as a failed brand? That would certainly explain why no one seemed to care about protecting their title last night and why they felt like all of Kross’s NXT clout was meaningless and could be tossed aside.

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4 hours ago, For Great Justice said:

Interesting to see some react to the show as a show, and some people react to the show for the booking. This Kross thing might be the best example of this we’ve had recently.

For show watchers, longtime favorite Jeff Hardy got this theme back and chumped out punk mark buster Karrion Kross and it’s great because that dude sucks. For booking watchers, it’s maddening because ‘what is Vince thinking’ or whatever. 

You liked the show. Other people didn't. You like to judge the on air show as an on air show. Other people like to judge a scripted wrestling program on the purpose of the scripted stuff. Why is the way you watch "the right" way? Everyone has an opinion and they're all equal. Some people judge movies on the story presented in the movie. Other people judge movies on casting choices and box office success. There's no "right way" to discuss wrestling. Wrestling is for everyone. We shouldn't be cannibalizing our own here lol.



My opinions on the show vary. I mean during the pandemic Raw was just unwatchable. I didn't think this was a great show, but things are happening and it was definitely watchable. Cena opening the show gave it a real shot in the arm. He's fresh and exciting in a way that most of the regular roster is not. Sometimes going away is the best thing that can happen to you.

In my head I expected the challenger for Lashley to be Keith Lee. Open challenges are generally always a vehicle to debut or have someone return that is supposed to be a surprise. But this did nothing for either guy. Lashley smoking Kofi made him look like a beast. Why couldn't he have smoked someone else? A dominant squash can sometimes be more worthwhile for a character than beating a name guy. Feel like Ricochet pinballing for Lashley made more sense. And Keith Lee getting a big dominant win to establish that he's back would have certainly been better for him. This all leading to 55 year old Godlberg challenging 45 year old Lashley in the 100 year epic... yuck. Because ya know with a record of 0-1 on the year Goldberg def deserves a title shot 🙄

The Kross thing is just the worst. I do not like the guy when the bell rings. But he has equity they have invested in him. He has squashed all of NXT and he's their champ. Making him lose in 2 minutes is just a stupid move man. Like if Marvel shelled out a ton of money to buy back the exclusive rights to Venom and had him show up in Ant Man and had Ant Man defeat him with only 5 minutes of screen time. Just such a staggeringly bad business decision. I don't hate the concept, had it been with a less protected NXT guy. Developmental prospect buying his own hype and realizing he isn't as big of a deal as he thought when he makes it to the pros is a fine story to tell. Just not with an undefeated monster that's also the brand's champion. They took away his entrance, his hot chick, and his aura. Then the narrative when they release him will be "god damn these wrestler's today just can't grab the brass ring".

I also called Nikki cashing in. They are dead set on getting Charolette to 16 time champion. So I fully expect her to win the title back next week on Raw. This was a cool moment for Nikki but you guys are kidding yourself if you think it's about merch or any of that. This was legitimately just an easy way to get rid of the MITB case and get Charolette one number higher. That's it. Charolette wins the title back next week. Does a post match beat down. Becky returns to set up Summer Slam. Nikki cuts promos about "I'm on the right track. I'm almost a super hero. I won my first title. I just gotta keep working and when I become a full on super hero I will win the title back and the world is mine".

They've been pretty consistent with one big surprise per show now with audiences. Balor. Cena. Goldberg. Friday will be Sasha coming back probably. Then Becky on Raw. I actually like this method. Spreading the shots in the arm out to keep some momentum. And giving an anyone can show up feel is a really smart way to do it. Overall this wasn't a terrible show or anything. But the band aid of excited hot crowds that miss wrestling is only going to last so long. If they don't fix the way they treat everyone like a nobody, they will be back to shedding viewers around Survivor Series.

 

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I know Karrion/Kevin, and I know how passionate about the business he is. What Vince did last night was such a disservice to him and to NXT as a whole. It will be interesting to see how it is handled on TV tonight.

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25 minutes ago, Infinit said:

I know Karrion/Kevin, and I know how passionate about the business he is. What Vince did last night was such a disservice to him and to NXT as a whole. It will be interesting to see how it is handled on TV tonight.

Well if most things NXT are ignored on the main show, I wouldn't be surprised if they ignore that he lost.

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That people are defending such horrible booking decisions is baffling to me. Were people defending that time Brock beat Kofi in mere seconds as well? I didn't check too far back then, but I bet so. I think fans have become desensitized from years of shit booking.

The "consensus" (I like him) that Kross is bad is irrelevant here and I don't see how it justifies this. This isn't like calling up someone random from NXT (No Way Jose, EC3, etc) and crushing them. That's dumb enough as it is (Why even call them up if you don't like them?). This was the champion who represented NXT. A wrestler who has crushed the rest of the roster there. Did NXT put too many of their eggs in one basket? Maybe. But WWE does the same, albeit with wrestlers who wrestling geeks prefer to watch, I guess. But if they tried to spread the eggs around more the fans would just complain anyway that nobody is special and they're only trading wins. Now the point to anyone who has been paying attention is that NXT's roster is full of losers and everything they did to build a monster champion was seemingly for nothing. Veteran Jeff Hardy (though he's someone who has lost to everyone but Cedric Alexander for months now) beating Kross isn't inherently bad. I get it, Kross sucks so people think it's funny. But it sure as heck shouldn't have happened before Kross put over SOMEONE in NXT first. ANYONE. Even if Kross gets a revenge win next week (Jeff Hardy has his solo music back, so maybe not?), I feel NXT looks bad in this decision. But let's say it doesn't matter. That they and the fans will forget about it. Okay, I'll pretend that argument works for a moment. Why do it anyway? Jeff Hardy could have beaten anyone else. He's probably not going to challenge for the NXT championship. It just looks petty and spiteful. And if they didn't mean to crush Kross here, then they're more incompetent than I thought. They stripped him of everything about his presentation but his music to make him just an ordinary guy. It's like they wanted to hammer home how much they think he sucks. I get it. It's what WWE does to most NXT call-ups to make them seem unimportant. But they seriously couldn't wait till he was no longer the NXT champion for that?

I'd go on about Keith Lee's treatment in another giant paragraph, but at least they're trying to make Lashley look as as strong as possible for *sigh* Goldberg. Well, that and I feel they buried Keith Lee a long time ago anyway.

Glad for Nikki Cross, though. At least unless she loses it in her first defense in a week or so. Not sure if I should bother hoping for better.

Edited by CastleVania Rey
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37 minutes ago, CastleVania Rey said:

I feel NXT looks bad in this decision. But let's say it doesn't matter. That they and the fans will forget about it. Okay, I'll pretend that argument works for a moment. Why do it anyway?

Because they have three hours to fill and Vince McMahon has deemed Kross to be cosmetically-adequate room meat? Does anything but those sorts of whims matter on these shows? Emotionally investing in a WWE belt and brand to the extent that one loses sight of how little wins and loss and anything else matter in this carnival of human misery is like caring about the points on Whose Line is it Anyway. This is all meaningless. And it's not going to hurt the people left behind in NXT who that audience has preferred this entire time, so 🤷‍♂️

They don't care. They haven't cared in ages. They think you're a chump for caring. They should fly in WALTER and have him lose an unadvertised sub-10 minute fluff match to Sheamus as a tribute to how little they care. 

But at least you actually like the purported victim, unlike a lot of other people who are upset on his behalf. So I find your consternation somewhat understandable. 

Edited by John from Cincinnati
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10 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Because they have three hours to fill and Vince McMahon has deemed Kross to be cosmetically-adequate room meat? Does anything but those sorts of whims matter on these shows? Emotionally investing in a WWE belt and brand to the extent that one loses sight of how little wins and loss and anything else matter in this carnival of human misery is like caring about the points on Whose Line is it Anyway. This is all meaningless. And it's not going to hurt the people left behind in NXT who that audience has preferred this entire time, so 🤷‍♂️

They don't care. They haven't cared in ages. They think you're a chump for caring. They should fly in WALTER and have him lose an unadvertised sub-10 minute fluff match to Sheamus as a tribute to how little they care. 

But at least you actually like the purported victim, unlike a lot of other people who are upset on his behalf. So I find your consternation somewhat understandable. 

Well... Sure they don't care (except for their own petty amusement). I'm not questioning that. But isn't that why we have these forums? To talk about wrestling? Or maybe we should talk about non-WWE and not bother talking about WWE stuff at all? I mean, why are any of us here then? I suppose not watching Raw also works (the current ratings suggest this is a good solution). But then the champion from the show I like jobs to make the show I like look bad. So the solution becomes to watch nothing under WWE's umbrella I suppose.

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14 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Because they have three hours to fill and Vince McMahon has deemed Kross to be cosmetically-adequate room meat? Does anything but those sorts of whims matter on these shows? Emotionally investing in a WWE belt and brand to the extent that one loses sight of how little wins and loss and anything else matter in this carnival of human misery is like caring about the points on Whose Line is it Anyway. This is all meaningless. And it's not going to hurt the people left behind in NXT who that audience has preferred this entire time, so 🤷‍♂️

They don't care. They haven't cared in ages. They think you're a chump for caring. They should fly in WALTER and have him lose an unadvertised sub-10 minute fluff match to Sheamus as a tribute to how little they care. 

But at least you actually like the purported victim, unlike a lot of other people who are upset on his behalf. So I find your consternation somewhat understandable. 

I'm just gonna ask in this way, is NXT supposed to be canon to the WWE Universe or not? Because the way booking seems, there's no consistency through any of the programs which begs the question of how they plan to become "Marvel esque". You have people like WALTER (as you mentioned) who was eliminated in 2 minutes from the Survivor Series match back in 2019(?) I think it was. Why do they continue to do these things? The only rational answer I can think of is Vince has no idea what goes on outside of RAW and SD. He might barely even remember what happened last week. 

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