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July 2021 Wrestling Discussion.


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25 minutes ago, Eoae said:

Hopefully, whatever builds a civilization on the planet after we’re gone is a little smarter.  
 

I feel bad for younger people because I have zero hope for the future, right now.  I’m nearly 50, so I I guess I had my time and and I made a fair bit of it. Not a lot of regrets.  

Not sure how I feel about having four kids right now.  They probably have shit futures to look forward to.

Man, you are fucking bumming me out. But only because I had this exact same conversation with my wife this afternoon. We only have two kids, and I'll be 43 at the end of this year, but other than that, I am right there with you.

Here's hoping we're wrong, and our kids live wonderful prosperous lives full of love and happiness. 

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9 hours ago, nate said:

That feels like "damning with faint praise" in certain contexts.

Yeah, I'm not even sure how to interpret that? I'm sure it's true both ways, though. No one sure turned out like Goldberg in a good or bad way. It would be pretty damn hard to accomplish, in any case.

As in : Get a super push, get super over, get the title , get tangled up with politics, get rich, injured, get kinda pushed aside, end a legendary career, get pushed aside, go home and collect the money , come back to another company and hate it , beat The Rock, get a push, but not really , win and lose the title , beat Brock Lesnar at Wrestlemania and call it a career. Come back years later to make even more money, win titles and go over some young stars while putting over some others.

Pretty sure anything like this will not be duplicated on this scale ever again.

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The legend of Eddie Kingston will also probably never be repeated. 18 years on the indies (not including an Impact run in which he was mostly used as a manager), finally brought in to a major company as a one-off, to lose a match on TV. Gets signed and is headlining a big 4 PPV, challenging for the World Title, in less than 4 months. Never going to happen again, that.

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17 hours ago, nofuture said:

Fandango on the Such Good Shoot Podcast gave his perspective on Kross:

"It’s the art of the no sell back there. You know, you can’t put shit over. You can’t go on Twitter and sell [issues]. 37-year-old me knows that now but 26-year-old me didn’t at the time. some of those things you have to learn the hard way. Look at Raw last night, they’re probably just testing Kross because they want him to be a big star and they want to see how he plays ball, you know? So yeah, but a guy like that will be fine, man, as long you just can’t sell it. It’s hard. It’s hard when you care so much. You know, it’s hard not to so it’s almost like that fine line of caring but not caring.

Like, how are you supposed to act? Like, are you supposed to care about what you’re doing or whatever? Yeah, it’s a weird juggling act that a lot of people don’t figure out. There are five guys and a few girls that they’re going to use prominently on top all year round and then the rest of everybody else is just kind of pissed off about their situation. That’s just the way it is. So yeah, once you come to terms with that, and you know your role, and you know what you got to do, and as long as you can control your attitude, your gear, and your body. As long as you can take care of those, you know, just don’t sell shit. That’s what I tell guys. Just do your job, man."

Well, if the goal is to never make anybody bigger than the company, then beating everyone down, keeping them job-scared and walking on eggshells until they're willing to eat every pile of shit you shove their way is the way to do it.  I mean you'll never have a star the level of Hogan, Austin, Michaels, Undertaker, etc etc etc ever again, but you'll also never have a possible pain in the ass the level of Hogan, Austin, Michaels, Undertaker, etc etc etc ever again, so it's a win, I guess?  Funny how anything we consume trends toward the boring middle, eventually.  WWE is a Big Mac.  "Good enough" is good enough.

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1 minute ago, Technico Support said:

Well, if the goal is to never make anybody bigger than the company, then beating everyone down, keeping them job-scared and walking on eggshells until they're willing to eat every pile of shit you shove their way is the way to do it.  I mean you'll never have a star the level of Hogan, Austin, Michaels, Undertaker, etc etc etc ever again, but you'll also never have a possible pain in the ass the level of Hogan, Austin, Michaels, Undertaker, etc etc etc ever again, so it's a win, I guess?  Funny how anything we consume trends toward the boring middle, eventually.  WWE is a Big Mac.  "Good enough" is good enough.

And if there's enough time left for it to happen, that's how empires eventually fall, rotting from the inside.

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5 minutes ago, Shartnado said:

And if there's enough time left for it to happen, that's how empires eventually fall, rotting from the inside.

I wish I could be as optimistic but I have to disagree.  There's always a market for bland product that's familiar and good enough. Shit, I bought a Big Mac last week. 

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11 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

I wish I could be as optimistic but I have to disagree.  There's always a market for bland product that's familiar and good enough. Shit, I bought a Big Mac last week. 

I was having a really similar conversation with an old friend last week (he works for WWE corporate, coincidentally). The conclusion we came to is that selling WWE diehards on AEW/NJPW/TNA etc. is like opening an Italian restaurant somewhere in the southern or middle US: it's gonna be really hard to convince the customers "this is REAL Italian food!" when they've had nothing but Dominos for the last 25 years. To them, that's for better or worse, just what pizza *is.*

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1 hour ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I was having a really similar conversation with an old friend last week (he works for WWE corporate, coincidentally). The conclusion we came to is that selling WWE diehards on AEW/NJPW/TNA etc. is like opening an Italian restaurant somewhere in the southern or middle US: it's gonna be really hard to convince the customers "this is REAL Italian food!" when they've had nothing but Dominos for the last 25 years. To them, that's for better or worse, just what pizza *is.*

As somebody who travels the country for work, I cannot stress more how accurate this assessment is...

Edited by christopher.annino
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2 hours ago, Technico Support said:

I wish I could be as optimistic but I have to disagree.  There's always a market for bland product that's familiar and good enough. Shit, I bought a Big Mac last week. 

Sure, there absolutely will be a market for it and I doubt WWE would go away completely, since they could still bring in some revenue for years, without ever putting on another new episode of programming again, just by their library alone.

However, if there is enough time left for any of us, eventually, this self-sabotaging attitude/business strategy should bite Vince in the ass, but it may still take a long time to happen. Hey, Roman Empire (no, not the Head of the Table, the actual empire) didn't completely vanish after it fell, either. There's still, Rome, Italy and there's Rome in the States too, right?

WWE itself doesn't need to exist for its programming to exist and be somehow available to whatever audience wants to consume it. I doubt Vince will, but he could always just cash out and say, "this has stopped amusing me, I don't wish to do this anymore", and just stop running the company altogether, instead of leaving the reigns to anyone else.

Also, I find it rather comical that such a large portion of American wrestling is now experiencing the wrath of Khan, in forms of Nick and Tony, respectively!

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19 hours ago, Wyld Samurai said:

One thing about Vince- you never saw anyone turn out like Goldberg under his watch. 

I'm still not sure what you meant by this.  I assume it's not a compliment, but I've never really heard much bad about Goldberg.  

I've always been a bit of a fan.  Dude had the it factor and made WCW a pile of money.  I've heard Bischoff speak fairly positively about him.   Apparently, Goldberg showed up at the Power Plant with a very concrete idea of how his character should be presented and wrestle.  Bisch thought he had a head for the business most workers don't have (particularly when they first show up for training).

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34 minutes ago, Eoae said:

I'm still not sure what you meant by this.  I assume it's not a compliment, but I've never really heard much bad about Goldberg.  

I've always been a bit of a fan.  Dude had the it factor and made WCW a pile of money.  I've heard Bischoff speak fairly positively about him.   Apparently, Goldberg showed up at the Power Plant with a very concrete idea of how his character should be presented and wrestle.  Bisch thought he had a head for the business most workers don't have (particularly when they first show up for training).

Imagine him showing up to Power Plant and present his idea: "Think Stone Cold Steve Austin meets Ken Shamrock in style and aesthetics, but WAY more dominant than those guys!" And Bischoff going "I think we could work with that!"

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2 hours ago, Eoae said:

I'm still not sure what you meant by this.  I assume it's not a compliment, but I've never really heard much bad about Goldberg.  

I've always been a bit of a fan.  Dude had the it factor and made WCW a pile of money.  I've heard Bischoff speak fairly positively about him.   Apparently, Goldberg showed up at the Power Plant with a very concrete idea of how his character should be presented and wrestle.  Bisch thought he had a head for the business most workers don't have (particularly when they first show up for training).

Goldberg at his peak believed his own hype and became paranoid about his spot. Granted that was due to being a green as can be rookie and having Hall & Nash in your ear filling your mind full of nonsense for their own amusement. 

I never would figure out why everyone thought he was an Austin clone. Black tights and a shaved head doesn't mean a thing. The dude was always Nikita Koloff for a new generation.

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8 minutes ago, Wyld Samurai said:

Goldberg at his peak believed his own hype and became paranoid about his spot. Granted that was due to being a green as can be rookie and having Hall & Nash in your ear filling your mind full of nonsense for their own amusement. 

I never would figure out why everyone thought he was an Austin clone. Black tights and a shaved head doesn't mean a thing. The dude was always Nikita Koloff for a new generation.

Add in the fact, Bill being green and getting himself hyped before matches like he was about to hit the gridiron was a recipe for him not protecting people in ring. If he wasn't a Power Plant product and had seasoning before WCW, I think that would change the trajectory of his career. 90% of his shit looked dangerous and like it hurt because it probably did. That helped get him over. WWE being WWE won't produce a new Goldberg clearly, but at the same time, a guy coming up through the ranks now doing what he did would get a nice talking to from the agents. And maybe for good reason. 

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13 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Loved hearing the discussion recently wondering if Goldberg would have gotten as big if he had the generic ring name Bill Gold. 

Billy Gold would have been The Gambler's greatest opponent AND greatest tag team partner.

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24 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

 90% of his shit looked dangerous and like it hurt because it probably did. 

When Monty Brown first appeared in TNA, I was really impressed at how devastating the Pounce looked.  Really looked like Brown was running dudes over and carelessly pinballing them around the ring.  Eventually figured out that was because Brown was legit running dudes over and carelessly pinballing them around the ring.  Guess he's a good guy who was just green and not trying to hurt anyone, but it sounds like taking the Pounce sucked for most guys.

 

41 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Loved hearing the discussion recently wondering if Goldberg would have gotten as big if he had the generic ring name Bill Gold. 

Probably not, but you can say that about a lot of guys, Leon "Bull Power" White probably wouldn't have had the career Vader, Steve Borden sounds like a jobber name, the Dingo Warrior might not have caught fire the way the Ultimate Warrior did, etc.

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53 minutes ago, Eoae said:

When Monty Brown first appeared in TNA, I was really impressed at how devastating the Pounce looked.  Really looked like Brown was running dudes over and carelessly pinballing them around the ring.  Eventually figured out that was because Brown was legit running dudes over and carelessly pinballing them around the ring.  Guess he's a good guy who was just green and not trying to hurt anyone, but it sounds like taking the Pounce sucked for most guys.

Unless it was Jeff Hardy taking some insane bump, the Pounce didn't look that painful. Guys were basically flying in the air as soon as he made contact.

Goldberg use to grab rolling leglocks like he was in a real fight. He would get full extension on kicks like he was really trying to drive through the target. He would throw people around kinda carelessly and just trying to muscle them up. It's not like they were sandbagging him. It makes it seem like Goldberg didn't know (or simply didn't believe) the other guy is in on it being a work.

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3 hours ago, Wyld Samurai said:

Billy Gold would have been The Gambler's greatest opponent AND greatest tag team partner.

Billy Gould is the Bass Player in Faith No More. He replaced Hulk Hogan, after Hogan left to join Metallica.

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23 hours ago, AxB said:

Queen of the Ring? Must be headed back to Saudi around the same time.

Funny you should bring that up as the latest RUMBLINGZ~! is that the Finals will now be on the Saudi show

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