The 2021 WWE Forever Purge - Part 3 of ?

[Jamal]

Hope Jeff gets better and prayers out to his family 

[The Natural]

 

[Curt McGirt]

Vince: 

[Curt McGirt]

I feel like psychoanalyzing Vince right now, so: 

He wants a clean slate. Hunter had his time, did his thing, now he wants control of his property. People flew the coop so now he wants to start from scratch. What he doesn't understand is he gave up all the good ones because they wanted respect, which he refused to give. Ever. They won't come back if offered something better, unless completely rejected. They might even go to the indies or whoever instead. Him and Ghengis Khan are the ones burning the bridges. Let them enjoy the fallout. 

And of course, they'll laugh all the way to the bank, but Vince wants more than money. He wants good wrestling. He won't get it past a certain point. 

[Dog]

Vince 100% does NOT want good wrestling. Or, at most, it's incidental (i.e. if it happens, it happens). He wants characters he can market and "actors" who don't care about the art and will do whatever they're told, as long as the check clears.

That sounds like *I'm* judging Vince, but for the WWE, it's probably the right way to go, especially in this business environment. "Pro wrestlers" get mopey and angsty when you put hockey masks and suspenders on them; folks just in it for the money will go along and not make a stink.

I'm wondering if the average career-length of a WWE "wrestler" is going to get shorter as time goes on. Like, they get in, build their "brand" a little, and move on to something else when Vince gets tired of them. That's probably a positive change, when you think of all the guys who had no idea what to do and were lost after being wrestlers for 25-30 years.

[Technico Support]

5 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

I feel like psychoanalyzing Vince right now, so: 

He wants a clean slate. Hunter had his time, did his thing, now he wants control of his property. People flew the coop so now he wants to start from scratch. What he doesn't understand is he gave up all the good ones because they wanted respect, which he refused to give. Ever. They won't come back if offered something better, unless completely rejected. They might even go to the indies or whoever instead. Him and Ghengis Khan are the ones burning the bridges. Let them enjoy the fallout. 

And of course, they'll laugh all the way to the bank, but Vince wants more than money. He wants good wrestling. He won't get it past a certain point. 

A much simpler counterpoint: Vince sent NXT and HHH to run off that pissant little company AEW and they failed.  When faced with failure, Vince always turns back the clock to 1984.  We don't need good wrestlers, we need big guys. 

[Shartnado]

2 hours ago, Technico Support said:

A much simpler counterpoint: Vince sent NXT and HHH to run off that pissant little company AEW and they failed.  When faced with failure, Vince always turns back the clock to 1984.  We don't need good wrestlers, we need big guys. 

And then he gets/has a wonderful crop of talented, charismatic big guys who can really go and proceeds to piss away each and every one of them, unless by some miracle they refuse to let it bother them for a decade, like Cena and Roman. And both of those were products of years of "push down the throat"-method, whether the fans wanted it, or not!

[NoFistsJustFlips]

3 hours ago, Technico Support said:

A much simpler counterpoint: Vince sent NXT and HHH to run off that pissant little company AEW and they failed.  When faced with failure, Vince always turns back the clock to 1984.  We don't need good wrestlers, we need big guys. 

It's mind blowing to me that Vince's dad ran the promotion for only about 30 years. Compared to VKM , who is at 40 years as of next year. I always viewed one of the big reasons for the 80s boom and going national and rock n wrestling was Vince Jr came to the table with all sorts of new ideas that expanded the company. None of that shit would have happened if Vince Sr stayed in charge . So we're kind of in that weird grey area that would have existed if Vince Sr ran the company into the 1990s. Any new ideas that could and would elevate WWE are wasting away in someone's brain.

You're right. Vince loves a reset where they scale things back to a 1984 base defense. And it's such a detriment to what could be. Vince Jr is too much of a control freak. There needs to be specific verbiage for hospitals and belts are what keep your pants up and yada yada yada. If Vince really wants WWE to grow he's gotta start thinking about stepping down. Whether it's Stephanie, Shane, Triple H, some combination of all three... he's gotta let go and let some new ideas come to the table. Some of the shit they might want to do might sound crazy to him. But his dad probably felt the same way about national tv and MTV and all that. You want real growth you need innovation. And there ain't no innovation waiting for ya in that 1984 base defense.

[The Z]

If it wasn't already clear before then, one thing has become abundantly clear over the last few years: Vince is the kind of boss, who wants to be surrounded by Yes-Men and Yes-Men only. People who have their own ideas about how to do things (e.g. Paul Heyman) never last for very long in the WWE, at least not in a creative setting. The only people who thrive there, are people, who are complete and utter suck-ups like Prichard and Kevin Dunn.

Triple H got a pass, because he's the son-in-law, but I guess Vince's patience finally ran out.

Edited December 10, 2021 by The Z

[Dog]

1 hour ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

It's mind blowing to me that Vince's dad ran the promotion for only about 30 years. Compared to VKM , who is at 40 years as of next year. I always viewed one of the big reasons for the 80s boom and going national and rock n wrestling was Vince Jr came to the table with all sorts of new ideas that expanded the company. None of that shit would have happened if Vince Sr stayed in charge . So we're kind of in that weird grey area that would have existed if Vince Sr ran the company into the 1990s. Any new ideas that could and would elevate WWE are wasting away in someone's brain.

You're right. Vince loves a reset where they scale things back to a 1984 base defense. And it's such a detriment to what could be. Vince Jr is too much of a control freak. There needs to be specific verbiage for hospitals and belts are what keep your pants up and yada yada yada. If Vince really wants WWE to grow he's gotta start thinking about stepping down. Whether it's Stephanie, Shane, Triple H, some combination of all three... he's gotta let go and let some new ideas come to the table. Some of the shit they might want to do might sound crazy to him. But his dad probably felt the same way about national tv and MTV and all that. You want real growth you need innovation. And there ain't no innovation waiting for ya in that 1984 base defense.

I don't mean to single this post out, but I think it's emblematic of how a lot of us think about the meanings of "innovation" and "success."

I have never liked Vince McMahon as a person or WWE as a product, but I will give the devil his due that he has ALWAYS seen two steps ahead, and that includes the innovation of the WWE Network. It's hard to remember because it all happened so fast, but that was one of the FIRST hyper-niche (i.e. non-Hulu or Netflix) streaming services. Everyone has one now, but it was a risk then. Vince saw the trend coming and was eventually able to cash in with Peacock.

We don't like what the current product is, just like oldheads probably hated VKM for turning wrasslin' into cartoons. But it was immensely successful FINANCIALLY, which is all Vince cares about, and probably all he should care about. According to Wrestlenomics, WWE is more profitable now than it's EVER been. And the streaming rights for next-day Raw and Smackdown are up in the latter half of next year, so expect 2022 to be another record-breaker.

For his company, I think Vince is right to turn the clock back at this point in time. In a world with lots of pro wrestlers and pro wrestling companies, it's probably smart to cultivate guys who no one else will want (to avoid bidding wars at contract renewal time), and who aren't marks for themselves -- a league of Barry Darsows who will work with any dumbshit gimmick you give them. Gimmicks which can be marketed (like Marvel characters; yes, I know, ugh).

I hate him, but Vince really is a genius. Even 40 years in, he's still innovating and ensuring his company lavish financial success (with a little help from less-empathetic Khan).

Edited December 10, 2021 by Dog

[JohnnyJ]

I looked at all of the signings over the past few years as an acknowledgment that no one really knows what works. The creation of draws are largely random. If you sign a whole bunch of people, something is bound to click. It was an acceptance that a five-foot nothing underdog may take the wrestling world by storm and they wanted to be there when it happened. 

The mass releases of the last year are a rejection of this approach. WWE will now go back to Vince's pet projects and attempt to create draws out of people who look the part. From a business perspective, the question is, is he wrong? I'm sure it eats Vince up that there are A-listers in Hollywood who came out of his system. If he was ever able to line up the timing right, there is the potential for an A-list performer to be headlining his shows and a business bonanza.

On the other hand, it has been two decades since a John Cena came through that door and the type of performer Vince is probably picturing doesn't come around too often.   

[Technico Support]

42 minutes ago, Dog said:

I don't mean to single this post out, but I think it's emblematic of how a lot of us think about the meanings of "innovation" and "success."

I have never liked Vince McMahon as a person or WWE as a product, but I will give the devil his due that he has ALWAYS seen two steps ahead, and that includes the innovation of the WWE Network. It's hard to remember because it all happened so fast, but that was one of the FIRST hyper-niche (i.e. non-Hulu or Netflix) streaming services. Everyone has one now, but it was a risk then. Vince saw the trend coming and was eventually able to cash in with Peacock.

We don't like what the current product is, just like oldheads probably hated VKM for turning wrasslin' into cartoons. But it was immensely successful FINANCIALLY, which is all Vince cares about, and probably all he should care about. According to Wrestlenomics, WWE is more profitable now than it's EVER been. And the streaming rights for next-day Raw and Smackdown are up in the latter half of next year, so expect 2022 to be another record-breaker.

For his company, I think Vince is right to turn the clock back at this point in time. In a world with lots of pro wrestlers and pro wrestling companies, it's probably smart to cultivate guys who no one else will want (to avoid bidding wars at contract renewal time), and who aren't marks for themselves -- a league of Barry Darsows who will work with any dumbshit gimmick you give them. Gimmicks which can be marketed (like Marvel characters; yes, I know, ugh).

I hate him, but Vince really is a genius. Even 40 years in, he's still innovating and ensuring his company lavish financial success (with a little help from less-empathetic Khan).

I can agree with all of this but the thing is that while his company is more profitable than ever, his product might be the worst it's been since The New Generation era.  It's really fascinating how WWE has built this thing where "do the people like what we're giving them and are they willing to pay for it?" is no longer a concern, when that very thing used to be their lifeblood.  That's a key reason why I feel like they're not even a wrestling company anymore.  Wrestling is: "make compelling storylines and/or present great in-ring and hope that translates into fan demand and dollars."  While with WWE, such a tiny percentage of their income actually comes from the fans' pockets.  It's wild. 

So now that the in-ring and the stories no longer matter, the quality of the workers no longer matters.  They're becoming interchangeable. 

All that being said, I feel like this is going to come to a head eventually. Selling a substandard product and conning network execs can only last so long, right?  That's probably where all the "Vince is going to sell" talk comes from.

 

[odessasteps]

I still subscribe to the theory that Vince only won the war because he was the promoter that was based in the Northeast and had all the advantages that comes with it. 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

I agree with everything your wrote @Dog. Vince is a borderline genius. And his business sense is beyond compare in the wrestling space. All of those things can be true, as is WWE being the most profitable it's ever been, while also being able to say Vince being there stifles true innovation.

WWE is seeing record profits. Short to medium term those profits are only going to go up. What he's doing now is working. And it's hard to criticize because it all looks so successful from the outside. But we're all smart enough here to realize you need an audience willing to watch to make all those deals happen. WWE is the wrestling business to a majority of the business world. Peacock wants wrestling on their platform? You sign WWE. Saudi Arabia wants wrestling to help modernize their countries entertainment choices? Call WWE. But there becomes a tipping point where if you don't have an audience to watch anymore, you can't keep making these deals.

They are in the realm of wrestling that's not even wrestling anymore. They are basically SNL with a ring. You write sketches and you hire performers that can pull off those sketches. All the while you keep hoping for a Hogan / Rock or Belushi / Sandler kind of star to come along. Well the stars exists they just can't break through the process anymore because the process it's self is so sanitized. Andy Sandberg became a star after SNL. Kristen Wiig became a star after SNL. WWE is just a content production company at this point. They could give a fuck about the quality of the content. And that's going to be their downfall in the medium term future. When the great businessman Vince McMahon isn't around anymore to make these savant-like business deals, what's going to be left? Definitely not much of an audience. The novelty of pro wrestling becomes less and less novel the more you remove yourself from a wrestling inherent backbone.

Eventually NBC Universal is gonna be like wait a second... WWE's next competitor has a 70% share of WWE's audience but at 15% the price? Why the fuck are we paying for WWE when *we* could be more profitable with their competitor? As will Fox. As will Saudi Arabia. And all their other savant like deals that are so amazing. Right now it's hard to argue with their business plan. But if you can look 5-7 years down the road it's more like how can they sustain the market identity if they keep hemorrhaging viewers? Every year Raw brings the record low down lower. Smackdown is more stable. But it's not going to sustain when the whole roster is 1 Roman, 1 Becky and 50 Grayson Wallers.

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by NoFistsJustFlips
so many typos

[SirSmUgly]

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that Jr. is a genius at monetizing his IP (though I don't think it takes a genius to help the KSA in sportswashing and to take advantage of a bunch of networks throwing around money for any live IP or IP with an exploitable back catalog). The WWE Network wasn't as bold a move as some might argue, IMO - Vince's advisers could look at successful niche streaming services like Crunchyroll and pitch him on WWEN accordingly. 

On the other hand, Vince can't create new stars and hasn't created one since John Cena back in 2005. That part of his genius has left him entirely. 

And @NoFistsJustFlipsshould be right about companies or repressive regimes looking at the way that AEW is a legit competitor and much cheaper asset in comparison and re-thinking their relationships with WWE, but Vince is still a salesman to execs. He's just not one to us normies anymore. 

[odessasteps]

Wouldn't call anyone on a wrestling message board a "normie."

[Curt McGirt]

14 hours ago, Dog said:

Vince 100% does NOT want good wrestling. Or, at most, it's incidental (i.e. if it happens, it happens). He wants characters he can market and "actors" who don't care about the art and will do whatever they're told, as long as the check clears.

To word my comments better, what I meant is that Vince likes good wrestling, which we know. He just doesn't consider it marketable. The "Tone It Down" chapter of the Mox book says it all. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Curt McGirt

[zendragon]

I think what Vince really wants is mainstream respect. That's why he's always going on about "entertainment". Deep down he wants to be viewed as Lorne Micheals is for creating SNL. He wants to be acknowledged for being some sort of entertainment guru. This also goes into him wanting no one to be bigger than the WWE brand. You go to the circus because you like the circus not because your favorite acrobat or clown is preforming

[Technico Support]

1 hour ago, zendragon said:

I think what Vince really wants is mainstream respect. That's why he's always going on about "entertainment". Deep down he wants to be viewed as Lorne Micheals is for creating SNL. He wants to be acknowledged for being some sort of entertainment guru. This also goes into him wanting no one to be bigger than the WWE brand. You go to the circus because you like the circus not because your favorite acrobat or clown is preforming

Vince’s all-consuming desire to be accepted in more respectable circles outside of wrestling is definitely a thing. He’s been trying to make movies since No Holds Barred, tried to build a bodybuilding company, tried twice to start a pro football league, tried to make a record label.  You get the feeling it really eats at him to be seen as just a sleazy rasslin promoter instead of as whatever self-aggrandizing image he sees for himself.

The only outside wrestling endeavor the McMahons ever sort of succeeded at was politics, but that was a bullshit “win” because they lost two elections and a shitload of money, only to somehow get a non-elected vanity position in their orange buddy’s cabinet.  And don’t get me started on that guy…the similarities between him and Vince are amazing.  

I remember some interview where Vince tried to paint himself as, like you said, a Lorne Michaels type.  He told the interviewer that “someone” (perhaps an anonymous very smart very fine beautiful person, just the best person) asked him, “when are you going to get rid of that ring?”  The fact that he ‘d make up some bullshit like that tells you all you need to know.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Technico Support

[username]

7 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Eventually NBC Universal is gonna be like wait a second... WWE's next competitor has a 70% share of WWE's audience but at 15% the price?

I think this eventually does less to lower WWE's price but elevate what AEW is going to ask for in their next tv deal.

[Shartnado]

4 hours ago, username said:

I think this eventually does less to lower WWE's price but elevate what AEW is going to ask for in their next tv deal.

Which would be a huge win for everyone involved, aside from the networks that end up airing WWE.

Also, referring to Flip's "70% audience at 15% price", sometimes, although not very often, that one meme goes:

- Mom, can we have WWE?

- We have WWE at home.

- The WWE at home: AEW

Edited December 11, 2021 by Shartnado
That one meme

[thee Reverend Axl Future]

On 12/10/2021 at 2:46 PM, odessasteps said:

I still subscribe to the theory that Vince only won the war because he was the promoter that was based in the Northeast and had all the advantages that comes with it. 

I disagree with this. Mr. McMahon had the NE advantage to be sure, but it was his foresight to understand the cable revolution (with the help of Joe Cohen), both as technology and how it eventually removed TV's regional character in place of a heterogeneous, nationwide and ma$$ive mono-identity. Accompanying this was the PPV cash cow. Even Ted Turner and certainly not the AWA, NWA, Crockett, Watts, et al, were not savvy enough to be the first (or as effective) in harnessing this new style of the medium.

On 12/10/2021 at 1:37 PM, Dog said:

We don't like what the current product is, just like oldheads probably hated VKM for turning wrasslin' into cartoons.

My question (and I have discussed this in the past with several workers) is: was the "change" in wrestling, as Mr. McMahon chose to do, necessary for the WWE's eventual domination or were the innovations proposed above (assuming it's truth) enough for that success? Meaning, could a WWWF or NWA style, brought up to speed for the times and new monetary streams, produce had the eventual dominating outcome? The available media (newsstand mags, the WON and lesser zines & sheets, really) were quite aflutter to put mildly (you hadda be there) - "clowns" and "circus" were frequently used words. Pro wrestling was not truly marketed towards children and families previous to this for the most part. It worked, but was the change to the product an evolution or was it so drastic as to alter the nature of the thing to make it something else now (sports entertainment?).

[zendragon]

Not Just foresight in cable, but he had to understanding to put a professional infrastructure in place when it comes to things like TV production, Licensing and Merchandising ect. He ran the "business" like a business not just a carny sideshow. You always hear the stories about how WWF was a well oiled machine compared to the shit show of WCW 

[SirSmUgly]

5 hours ago, thee Reverend Axl Future said:

I disagree with this. Mr. McMahon had the NE advantage to be sure, but it was his foresight to understand the cable revolution (with the help of Joe Cohen), both as technology and how it eventually removed TV's regional character in place of a heterogeneous, nationwide and ma$$ive mono-identity. Accompanying this was the PPV cash cow. Even Ted Turner and certainly not the AWA, NWA, Crockett, Watts, et al, were not savvy enough to be the first (or as effective) in harnessing this new style of the medium.

My question (and I have discussed this in the past with several workers) is: was the "change" in wrestling, as Mr. McMahon chose to do, necessary for the WWE's eventual domination or were the innovations proposed above (assuming it's truth) enough for that success? Meaning, could a WWWF or NWA style, brought up to speed for the times and new monetary streams, produce had the eventual dominating outcome? The available media (newsstand mags, the WON and lesser zines & sheets, really) were quite aflutter to put mildly (you hadda be there) - "clowns" and "circus" were frequently used words. Pro wrestling was not truly marketed towards children and families previous to this for the most part. It worked, but was the change to the product an evolution or was it so drastic as to alter the nature of the thing to make it something else now (sports entertainment?).

Great post, but I have one quibble: Ted Turner did understand how to leverage cable, but he was focused on doing so with the baseball club he owned rather than with pro wrestling. Putting the Braves on national television made major waves. I feel like people forget how innovative Turner was re: cable television. 

[Mister TV]

While cable tv was part of the WWF’s national expansion, syndicated tv was the main tool Vince used. Stations had been giving away tv time to wrestling promotions based on handshake deals, then you had Vince show up with a briefcase full of cash and a cut of house show money in that market, those station managers jumped at that deal. That syndication network enabled Vince to sell commercial time, sponsorships and so on.