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Saturday Night Dynamite - 6/26/2021


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8 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

That your imagination is so limited as to not see the potential narrative usefulness of presenting someone as a fluke and them trying to overcome that is humorous, as it's a pretty clear-cut concept. But this is the company that thinks clear-cut narratives that get guys over as future stars involve portraying them as sloppy, mopey drunks who can't maintain eye-contact with people or even hear the name of their old friends spoken aloud. I'm clearly not as plugged into the magical thinking that goes into seemingly every storytelling choice made in this company as others.

It's really depressing to think about how the culture that makes up what little remains of this art form's fandom is largely so obsessed with lengthy arcs and everything fitting into neat little patterns. But I guess this is the sort of thinking that gave us a world where adult colouring books are a thing. Oh well. 

Yeah, you're right, my imagination won't let me see the "potential" in Jungle Boy being presented as a fluke and overcoming the odds, since the entire argument here is that he wins the title from Omega, and then loses it back to Omega weeks later. How the hell is that supposed to signify to the fans that he isn't a fluke, since he didn't overcome the odds in the end? Please, explain it to me, since your imagination is just bursting with million dollar ideas apparently.

I'm glad to see you've joined the cranky boomer club on here that wishes rasslin' would go back to how it was, or whatever the fuck you're trying to argue with that weird as fuck last bit. The horror, adult coloring books!!! What's next, ranting about snowflakes or something?

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I guess my only ‘out’ with playing back and forth with the title was if it created some sort of lasting change to the characters. Like if Omega went completely off his rocker and made significant alterations to his outlook or style or something along those lines, it could be worth it. But wrestling is pretty Marvel comics right now where everyone goes back to status quo a lot of the time so it would be a wild change to modern booking philosophy.

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Jungle Boy's never held a title but has shown he can hang with the "best wrestler in the world," and he's over as fuck with the live crowd so yeah he's fine with losing to Omega. Hangman is absolutely the best guy to take the AEW World belt. 

I can see that happening much more clearly than the Bucks getting their comeuppance, which is why I personally tune out for most of their stuff. Still, I think there's a potentially great payoff with their constant bending of the rules and screwing over babyface teams. 

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32 minutes ago, Casey said:

Yeah, you're right, my imagination won't let me see the "potential" in Jungle Boy being presented as a fluke and overcoming the odds, since the entire argument here is that he wins the title from Omega, and then loses it back to Omega weeks later. How the hell is that supposed to signify to the fans that he isn't a fluke, since he didn't overcome the odds in the end? Please, explain it to me, since your imagination is just bursting with million dollar ideas apparently.

I'm glad to see you've joined the cranky boomer club on here that wishes rasslin' would go back to how it was, or whatever the fuck you're trying to argue with that weird as fuck last bit. The horror, adult coloring books!!! What's next, ranting about snowflakes or something?

Why would I want to signify he's not a fluke at the end of the angle establishing him as a fluke? In the proper conception of this, he needs that stink to overcome it in the long haul or not. Carry the rep as the only champion in the company to never have a successful title defense. Build off of the feeling of failure that comes with slipping off the top so quickly. But I guess they're going with that classic pure-sports presentation where every champion has a long list of successful title defenses and it ought to be assumed they're retaining most of the time. 

So people are in love with Hangman's long road back to the title picture and his experience of personal and professional failure and hitting rock-bottom, but it's incomprehensible to use a quick title swap as the inciting event of Jungle Boy experiencing a serious professional shortcoming and trying to work his way back to the top... because people like vigorously tugging themselves to the thought of long title reigns, I guess? Maybe I should pitch a storyline with opioid addiction and snow blowers, since that probably makes more sense as professional wrestling to some of you than someone not having 800 successful title defenses and losing their belt to the exact right person that everyone has already been talking about as a forgone conclusion for literal years. The absolute horror of a quick title swap, I don't know how some of you have hung in as wrestling fans for so long. 

Anyway, I'm happy slavish devotion to your entertainment preferences keeps you young at heart. You're hello-fellow-kidsing with the best of 'em.

Edited by John from Cincinnati
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Fans clearly don’t want whatever the last twenty years of a mainstream monopoly on pro wrestling has given them.  If the opposite of the last twenty years is long story arcs and characters that change then that is what those fans want.

Wrestling has had so many raging madmen evil geniuses, lucky underdogs, family feuds, violent drunks, psychopaths, anti-social anti-heroes and manic depressives.  

Adam Page is a depressed drunk.  Kenny Omega is trying to be Machiavellian with every move he makes.  He ends up looking delusional.  He isn’t delusional when he boasts about his talent and accomplishments.  That earns him credibility…which he continually mortgages against his huge ego.  Fans loved him until his delusions of grandeur turned him completely after he beat Moxley.  

Edited by Ryan Faulconer
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People bitched during those few months when everybody was bouncing between face and heel. Right around the Bucks' turn.

The Dark Order and the Inner Circle turned face, the Elite turned heel, Kingston/Penta/Fenix/PAC have been in this weird tweenerverse forever, Scorpio Sky turned, Matt Hardy, Private Party, Lance Archer, QT, Hobbs, kinda sorta Brian Cage, Britt, Janela, all in the last year.  I don't think AEW is doing that much resetting to the status quo. I think that COVID has had a much bigger effect on AEW's long-game booking than TK or anybody else's territorial or Japanese-infulenced booking philosophies. You have to assume AEW books like they book due to having had no immediate crowd responses to take the temperature of the angles they're running & saving certain big babyface moments for a chance to get an actual pop. And we don't even have to argue about it , we're on the cusp of finding out what they've been holding back on.

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I wouldn’t since Miro is running so hot right now and it would come off as JB settling for the consolation prize of the secondary title. I would be more amenable to him and Christian going over the Bucks since they don’t really have a good feud going or obvious challengers on the wings with FTR and Santana/Ortiz being tied up with each other. Really the last, last thing they need is to keep running him against the title wall and failing over and over.

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36 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

So people are in love with Hangman's long road back to the title picture and his experience of personal and professional failure and hitting rock-bottom, but it's incomprehensible to use a quick title swap as the inciting event of Jungle Boy experiencing a serious professional shortcoming and trying to work his way back to the top... because people like vigorously tugging themselves to the thought of long title reigns, I guess?


I actually see the value to what you're saying. I'm not dismissing it outright like most people here are. But I think Jungle Boy specifically is a bad fit for the overcoming being a fluke story. Jungle Boy is cool. He's chill. He's got this mellow vibe of a dude you just want to see do well. Making him, even for a short time, look like a dweeb is going to hurt him more than help him. He'll lose that cool ass mellow dude vibe and just come off as mopey. I love the dude but he's still young and really doesn't have the range verbally to get into that kind of storytelling yet.

Part of being the alternative is doing the unexpected. Doing what the other guys wont. WWE certainly wouldn't have Ricochet win the WWE Title from Lashley, just like they didn't let The 123 Kid beat Bret for it years ago. So there is value and substance to taking a risk that the other guys wouldn't. But for the specific story you are advocating for, Jungle Boy is a bad fit.

Also the people who are talking about not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel for The Young Buck's reign... am I the only one that sees a fulfilling next step on Jungle Boy's journey being him taking the tag titles off of The Bucks with Luchasaurus? Comes up short in his big singles opportunity due to bullshit interference. Leads to him dedicating himself to get retribution by taking the belts off The Bucks. Nice step up in the long term star making process for a home grown guy.

I mayyy be giving TK too much credit for neat and succinct storytelling... but this is what my gut is telling me.

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1 hour ago, Casey said:

Yeah, you're right, my imagination won't let me see the "potential" in Jungle Boy being presented as a fluke and overcoming the odds, since the entire argument here is that he wins the title from Omega, and then loses it back to Omega weeks later. How the hell is that supposed to signify to the fans that he isn't a fluke, since he didn't overcome the odds in the end? Please, explain it to me, since your imagination is just bursting with million dollar ideas apparently.

I'm glad to see you've joined the cranky boomer club on here that wishes rasslin' would go back to how it was, or whatever the fuck you're trying to argue with that weird as fuck last bit. The horror, adult coloring books!!! What's next, ranting about snowflakes or something?

Holly Holm. Buster Douglas. The New York Giants (twice). The 1998 Atlanta Falcons. All huge underdogs who persevered in large part because an egomaniacal champion/favorite overlooked them/took beating them for granted. There was absolutely a way to tell that story with Jungle Boy winning the title due to Kenny Omega not taking him seriously, then dropping it when a now-maniacal, bent on revenge Omega puts Jungle Boy in a no-win situation by taking out Luchasaurus and Marko. This shit isn't that hard. But folks get it in their head that because of shit that happened five years ago in Japan that have made Omega this workrate god, that onl a star of a certain level can have the honor of beating him bestowed upon them. I can at least understand that on some level. I still have zero idea what it is about the Young Bucks that some people enjoy. And before you say it, it isn't their "heel work." It's how little they care about every aspect of the presentation of professional wrestling except for how many flips they can cram into a single move.

Edited by just drew
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29 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Is there anybody that makes more sense than Jungle Boy beating Miro for the TNT title? 

I don't disagree with you at all, but to answer your question, I could see a strong case made for John Silver, either one of Chuckie T or Cassidy while Trent's out, or a 2nd Darby reign.

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45 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Is there anybody that makes more sense than Jungle Boy beating Miro for the TNT title? 

I'd put Jungle Boy over Miro eventually, but I'd also milk Miro's God's Chosen promos for all they are worth.

I'd also let Jungle Boy avenge his loss to Darby Allin maybe in a #1 Contender's match for the TNT title.

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Honestly... With how Miro is performing he is damn near at the Lesnar level of "who in the world could realistically best him?". I say let Miro never drop a pinfall. He's that good. Let him relinquish the TNT belt after he decimates Omega for the AEW Championship. I'd be all about that. Put the rocket strap on Miro's ass and rise him to the moon. 

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47 minutes ago, Wyld Samurai said:

Honestly... With how Miro is performing he is damn near at the Lesnar level of "who in the world could realistically best him?". I say let Miro never drop a pinfall. He's that good. Let him relinquish the TNT belt after he decimates Omega for the AEW Championship. I'd be all about that. Put the rocket strap on Miro's ass and rise him to the moon. 

You had me at “decimates Omega.”

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2 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

You're hello-fellow-kidsing with the best of 'em.

Oh baby! Using a meme from 2012 to try and paint someone as out of touch is just beautiful. 

Also, it's "How Do You Do, Fellow Kids?"

Also also, it's generally used to point out that someone is pretending to be part of a subculture that they clearly know nothing about, rather than how you seem to be trying to use it here.

1 hour ago, just drew said:

It's how little they care about every aspect of the presentation of professional wrestling except for how many flips they can cram into a single move.

I've said it before and it fell on deaf ears but "The Bucks Don't Sell" is rock-solid proof that someone just isn't paying attention. As is claiming that Kenny only works one kind of match. If you can't see how the Jungle Boy match was markedly different from other recent Omega matches than you are either truly blinded by hatred or just slavishly paraphrasing Jim Cornette regardless of what happens. Or both. 

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3 hours ago, Goodear said:

I wouldn’t since Miro is running so hot right now and it would come off as JB settling for the consolation prize of the secondary title. I would be more amenable to him and Christian going over the Bucks since they don’t really have a good feud going or obvious challengers on the wings with FTR and Santana/Ortiz being tied up with each other. Really the last, last thing they need is to keep running him against the title wall and failing over and over.

 

The TNT belt is kinda on par with what the IWGP IC was right now in terms of prestige within the promotion.  It's a pretty good consolation prize.

 

Edited by alstein
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3 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:


I actually see the value to what you're saying. I'm not dismissing it outright like most people here are. But I think Jungle Boy specifically is a bad fit for the overcoming being a fluke story. Jungle Boy is cool. He's chill. He's got this mellow vibe of a dude you just want to see do well. Making him, even for a short time, look like a dweeb is going to hurt him more than help him. He'll lose that cool ass mellow dude vibe and just come off as mopey. I love the dude but he's still young and really doesn't have the range verbally to get into that kind of storytelling yet.

Part of being the alternative is doing the unexpected. Doing what the other guys wont. WWE certainly wouldn't have Ricochet win the WWE Title from Lashley, just like they didn't let The 123 Kid beat Bret for it years ago. So there is value and substance to taking a risk that the other guys wouldn't. But for the specific story you are advocating for, Jungle Boy is a bad fit.

Also the people who are talking about not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel for The Young Buck's reign... am I the only one that sees a fulfilling next step on Jungle Boy's journey being him taking the tag titles off of The Bucks with Luchasaurus? Comes up short in his big singles opportunity due to bullshit interference. Leads to him dedicating himself to get retribution by taking the belts off The Bucks. Nice step up in the long term star making process for a home grown guy.

I mayyy be giving TK too much credit for neat and succinct storytelling... but this is what my gut is telling me.

At the outset, thank you for at least engaging with my thinking. Much appreciated. I'm happy not everyone's willing to outright dismiss even the possibility of a quick, unexpected flip.

I find the talk of JB's limitations at promos somewhat valid. What I've been wrestling with lately is how good of a talker he needs to be. Not to speak ill of the dead, but Luke had his limitations as an actor and his star persona was carried on other things. I think there's a pocket where that same star quality works for Jack in a wrestling context, but I worry that some wrestling fans will get too caught up on someone need to be a "good promo" and lose sight of the other ways a performer connects with the audience. I do agree that I don't want him to be mopey, just as I hate that Hangman gets mopey, and in this hypothetical I'd be keen to steer around that. Good notes. I'm going more for clean-cut resilience rather than mopey. 

WRT the tag belts, I'm just completely checked out on Luchasaurus. He's my least favourite part of that unit. If the future is JB as a singles star, a prolonged tag run would be a step back in my view. But I wouldn't rule it out. It would not be my preference. And I feel strongly on that front, no matter how pleased I'd be to see JB with gold.

If I read my TK tea leaves correctly, the Christian promo last night alludes to him being on a path to finding an edge, perhaps deviating from the cool/mellow vibe occasionally. That would be a welcome change, especially with the garbage finish to the Darby match. Hopefully they pull that off in a satisfactory way so that they don't need to lean too hard on the promos. 

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3 hours ago, Jiji said:

Is there anybody that makes more sense than Jungle Boy beating Miro for the TNT title? 

Andrade, Eddie Kingston, Orange Cassidy, a name New Japan guy. They make about equal sense. Tommy End? JB's lost so many consecutive big matches that I really think he needs a different kind of program for awhile, but if he's refusing to promo I don't know where you put him. Maybe an excursion is due.

Edited by John E. Dynamite
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1 hour ago, Gordberg said:

Oh baby! Using a meme from 2012 to try and paint someone as out of touch is just beautiful. 

Also, it's "How Do You Do, Fellow Kids?"

Also also, it's generally used to point out that someone is pretending to be part of a subculture that they clearly know nothing about, rather than how you seem to be trying to use it here.

I've said it before and it fell on deaf ears but "The Bucks Don't Sell" is rock-solid proof that someone just isn't paying attention. As is claiming that Kenny only works one kind of match. If you can't see how the Jungle Boy match was markedly different from other recent Omega matches than you are either truly blinded by hatred or just slavishly paraphrasing Jim Cornette regardless of what happens. Or both. 

Well, I haven't listened to Jim Cornette in 5 years, so it isn't that. And I have zero time for any argument to be made for the Bucks employing any sort of psychology or selling after the Mox/Kingston match. What type of psychology is it when two 5'8 weaklings manhandle two 6'2 or better carnivores, one of whom being a former World Champion in both that promotion and the WWE and the other being maybe the most intense competitor in North America at the moment? I've watched that match at least six times, and really the only realistic part of that match is the first ninety seconds, where Mox is stuffing streamers down one Buck's throat and Kingston is just manhandling the other one. Watch the way the Young Bucks leave the ringside area after that match and tell me they sell. I think I might be paying more attention than you are. But they don't have to employ psychology or sell, because they are allowed to book the division they're in, and that means everyone else gets to fall over backwards to make them look good, even though on their best day they look like the Mulkey Brothers with better tights.

 

As far as Kenny Omega goes, I'm more willing to admit he's a matter of taste. I have never once watched him and thought "damn, that guy's one of the best in the world at this." All that "fighting spirit" stuff doesn't really register with me, and the Elite stuff he's doing now is too tainted with dweebery from Callis, Gallows and the Bucks. All of his matches look the same to me because I don't at all enjoy nonstop movez with tap-dancing and incredibly weird facial expressions in between. It's just not for me.

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I don't hate The Bucks or Omega. They're fine in their goofy ways... I really don't think what they do is any different than what we've seen over the last 25 years. The Bucks are basically 2 DX era HBK's who just do what they want... Omega is a character that I love. I like some aspect of his game, but he's not to the level of PAC I feel when it comes to tightness.

Jungle Boy could easily be a Bret Hart type in promos and that would be absolutely fine. The thing about that is Bret spent years getting to that point... JB is still a kid and you guys are wanting him to be this complete act. Granted- he's not a Sammy Guevara or MJF... but his likability Q is so so so much higher. He's a slow burn and let him develop. He hasn't even had any real feuds yet. He doesn't have that arch nemesis. There's really nothing to support a run on top for him or with any belt.

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