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2021 The WWE Purge, Part 2


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4 hours ago, Technico Support said:

This right here.

Vince runs his company like it's still 1979.  In his mind, wrestlers are no better than racehorses, cattle, indentured servants, whatever analogy you want.  He's a pimp.  For the talent, contracts aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

@Greggulatorwrote this long thing comparing wrestling to the entertainment industry and I don't think they're comparable.  If an actor signs on for, say, three seasons of a show, and the studio decides to fire him without cause after one, I'm guessing he's got some recourse (contract paid out?  lawsuit?) and isn't just getting 90 days pay in a non-compete period during which he can't work on anyone else's TV show, movie, etc.  Also, actors have agents and lawyers who review their contracts so they'll hopefully never be in situations former WWE "independent contractors" end up in.  And don't tell me that wrestlers could hire agents and lawyers, too.  Vince always side-eyed the very few wrestlers who had agents.  And show me a wrestler who said "let me have my lawyer read this before I sign" and I'll show you a wrestler who was behind the 8 ball on day one. 

exactly/Wendi Richter says hello.

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3 hours ago, supremebve said:

Pretty much every working actor is part of the Screen Actor's Guild, and I'm not sure how they are compensated if they are fired, but that's what happens when you have representation.  

SAG contracts vary from person to person.  If you're in the main cast of a tv show, or have a large role in a movie, you're generally getting paid till the end of the season (or shoot), assuming you leave the project for a legitimate reason or "creative differences".  If they fire you for some sort of behavior detrimental to the show or castmates, you probably won't get much.  The contract will generally specify what they can fire you for without compensation.

Bit players, extras, and a lot of crew positions generally just pay for time on set.  If you get fired prematurely, you're probably not owed much extra, if anything.

As with a lot of professions, it depends who you are.  Bigger the star, the more clout you have to get guaranteed money written in to the contract.  

Personally, I don't have a lot of sympathy for wrestlers who sign one-sided contracts then develop buyers remorse much later, but i also don't subscribe to the idea that all these people are naive babes in the woods who need protected from the Big Bad Wolf Vince, so your mileage may vary.

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7 minutes ago, Eoae said:

Personally, I don't have a lot of sympathy for wrestlers who sign one-sided contracts then develop buyers remorse much later, but i also don't subscribe to the idea that all these people are babes in the woods who need protected from the Big Bad Wolf Vince, so your mileage may vary.

They literally could stop all of this if they just hired a lawyer/agent to do their negotiations like everyone else in a similar field.  Seriously, LeBron James has an agent in a sport that has a maximum contract that he knows he'll get.  He knows for a certified fact that the Lakers will give him the maximum contract, and he still pays someone to negotiate it for him.  Why, because negotiating for himself is fucking stupid.  You know what an agents primary role is?  So the employee can say fuck you to his employer, and the employer can say fuck you to the employee, without anyone ever getting upset.  The reason that this shit keeps happening is because none of these people are willing to look Vince in the eye and say "FUCK YOU," when he gives them a bullshit contract and they won't hire anyone to do it for them.  

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3 hours ago, supremebve said:

They literally could stop all of this if they just hired a lawyer/agent to do their negotiations like everyone else in a similar field.  Seriously, LeBron James has an agent in a sport that has a maximum contract that he knows he'll get.  He knows for a certified fact that the Lakers will give him the maximum contract, and he still pays someone to negotiate it for him.  Why, because negotiating for himself is fucking stupid.  You know what an agents primary role is?  So the employee can say fuck you to his employer, and the employer can say fuck you to the employee, without anyone ever getting upset.  The reason that this shit keeps happening is because none of these people are willing to look Vince in the eye and say "FUCK YOU," when he gives them a bullshit contract and they won't hire anyone to do it for them.  

Wrestling/MMA seem to be in the sweet spot where the limited amount of credible representation allows for exploitation to the nth degree. Besides Barry Bloom and maybe one or two others, I cannot think anyone in wrestling who has been a power broker like you see in major stick and ball sports.

In MMA, it's Malki Kawa (and his brother) along with Ali Abdelaziz. When all the Brazilian fighters were champions like Machida, Anderson Silva, and the Nogueira brothers, it was Ed Soares before he became a feeder league promoter and Jorge Guimaraes. That's basically it as far as MMA goes besides low level ones like Tiago Okamura and some others who basically serve as trainer, liason, and manager (ex. Jose Aldo and Andre Pederneiras). All this does is basically allow a Dana White or even Scott Coker (One FC too probably) to basically negotiate through social media and through public opinion. That usually ends badly for the fighters.

I don't think it's a coincidence that once these folks get representation through CAA, Endeavor, ICM, UTA, etc., they are not long for their current profession. The most ironic part is UFC is owned 100% by a talent agency in Endeavor. The same shit that was occurring pre sale is happening post sale. The reason why is UFC is the only money making venture they have at the moment. So Dana is essentially more powerful than he ever has been. He can basically do whatever the fuck he wants.

In order for a Rich Paul to be in the MMA or wrestling world, he would have to navigate around and earn the respect of the power brokers within that venture. I mean Richard Schaefer just entered MMA after several years in boxing and that seems to be a step in the right direction if he's representing a Jon Jones. He was a successful Swiss banker and was able to turn Oscar De La Hoya's Golden Boy Promotions into a real thing that Oscar definitely couldn't do on his own. He is a big name, and Dana is saying he respects him and all that. However, we'll see how long that actually lasts when they have to do real negotiations. I mean Jon Jones legitimately getting $20-$40 million (as opposed to mid seven figures he would usually get) to fight Francis Ngannou is something Schaefer could pull off because his track record suggests that and what the UFC stands to make off the fight warrants that. That's what real representation can do for you. It bypasses all that negotiating through social media bullshit.

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On 6/4/2021 at 9:11 AM, John E. Dynamite said:

I love that this post implies Orton changes his last name to "Ortin" to better court the Hispanic market 

Wouldn't they just go with El Hijo del Orton?

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The problem with comparing pro wrestling to the rest of the entertainment industry is that no one ever overdoses because of the work they did on SVU. In terms of pure exploitation, it's probably closer to porn than anything else. Both industries have shown time and time again that they hold the health and wellbeing of their talent in little regard (hey remember that hep-c PPV).

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I mean... a lot of people have OD'd, become drug addicted and otherwise ruined their lives in part because of their entertainment/showbiz career. I'd say wrestling in general has been worse about it but like there's a reason the term "27 Club" exists.

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6 minutes ago, username said:

I mean... a lot of people have OD'd, become drug addicted and otherwise ruined their lives in part because of their entertainment/showbiz career. I'd say wrestling in general has been worse about it but like there's a reason the term "27 Club" exists.

"because of the work"

Other than maybe a few exceptions like Chris Farley and the Jackass crew actors generally don't actually put their physical health on the line to make a movie.

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As I understand it, top WWE wrestlers do have agents/lawyers to negotiate their contracts. I'm pretty sure AJ Styles used one for his last deal. Also, I think it was Meltzer who indicated that a few have 'no cut' clauses, because it was indicated that Strowman probably could have gotten that clause but didn't think about it, which ties into having an agent handle your business. Those same few wrestlers also have perks such as private tour buses, paid accommodations, etc.

The divide between the precious few deemed important in WWE vs everyone else will continue. Vince will keep the top handful happy with large downside guarantees, bigger percentages from merch sales, time off, etc. The rest need to look at that and be ready to fight for better deals. They won't get a main eventer's package, but someone working on your behalf will be better for them in the long run.

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1 hour ago, odessasteps said:

IIRC, Chevy Chase says he became addicted to painkillers because of the bumps he took on SNL.

Chevy Chase is composed of 97% bullshit, however.

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3 hours ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

As I understand it, top WWE wrestlers do have agents/lawyers to negotiate their contracts. I'm pretty sure AJ Styles used one for his last deal. Also, I think it was Meltzer who indicated that a few have 'no cut' clauses, because it was indicated that Strowman probably could have gotten that clause but didn't think about it, which ties into having an agent handle your business. Those same few wrestlers also have perks such as private tour buses, paid accommodations, etc.

The divide between the precious few deemed important in WWE vs everyone else will continue. Vince will keep the top handful happy with large downside guarantees, bigger percentages from merch sales, time off, etc. The rest need to look at that and be ready to fight for better deals. They won't get a main eventer's package, but someone working on your behalf will be better for them in the long run.

I assume that's why AJ brought in Joseph Park.

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3 hours ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

The divide between the precious few deemed important in WWE vs everyone else will continue. Vince will keep the top handful happy with large downside guarantees, bigger percentages from merch sales, time off, etc. The rest need to look at that and be ready to fight for better deals. They won't get a main eventer's package, but someone working on your behalf will be better for them in the long run.

If half fight for better deals and the other half just happily take whatever they're given, which half is going to be pushed and which half ends up in catering?  As long as these guys don't unionize, or at least work together in some fashion, Vince can just play on insecurities, keep them job-scared, and fuck everybody over.

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12 hours ago, Hector said:

The problem with comparing pro wrestling to the rest of the entertainment industry is that no one ever overdoses because of the work they did on SVU. In terms of pure exploitation, it's probably closer to porn than anything else. Both industries have shown time and time again that they hold the health and wellbeing of their talent in little regard (hey remember that hep-c PPV).

Question: did you warm up properly before you posted?  Stretch out for a few minutes?  ‘Cause that’s quite a leap in logic you’re making and I’m a little worried you’re going to tear a hammy.

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8 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

If half fight for better deals and the other half just happily take whatever they're given, which half is going to be pushed and which half ends up in catering?  As long as these guys don't unionize, or at least work together in some fashion, Vince can just play on insecurities, keep them job-scared, and fuck everybody over.

A fair point. We know unionizing isn't likely to happen soon. Their best bet is everyone to pay into an account that a wrestler can request a payment from when it's time for a new contract and they need a lawyer. Can they get the majority on board for that? Who knows.

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12 hours ago, Hector said:

"because of the work"

Other than maybe a few exceptions like Chris Farley and the Jackass crew actors generally don't actually put their physical health on the line to make a movie.

George Clooney was near suicidal from a back injury he got in Syriana.

 

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3 hours ago, EVA said:

Chevy Chase is composed of 97% bullshit, however.

The Chevy Chase thing is pretty well documented, although addiction definitely exacerbated his preexisting case of asshole.  He famously showed up to host SNL all fucked up on back pills and fought Bill Murray backstage.

Anywho, if you're going to try to compare the toll of Hollywood to that of wrestling you really need to factor in stunt performers for the former.

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To be fair, "generally" has been used a few times in this discussion because there will always be outliers. That's a great point about stuntmen, though. Not only that, but the experience of an actor who has done most of his own stunts (or even just a few) will probably be different than that of someone working on a soap opera; if substance abuse issues happen in both actors, it's quite probable that it happens for different reasons.

Let's use one of the the most famous examples: Jackie Chan. You want to see some horrific bumps gone wrong, look at the outtake reels that used to play during/after the credits of some of his films. Chan himself has an injury list to rival or exceed that of Mick Foley, never mind what some of his stunt crew went through.

If anything, that's what pro wrestling reminds me of nowadays. In a sense, you're watching a live-action Jackie Chan fight scene - one take, no do-overs. Sure, pro wrestlers are athletes and have to train like them, but when it comes to the actual work there's a ton in common with an actor who does their own stunts. It has been beyond me for a while why wrestlers aren't afforded the same sort of protections or resources as those in the rest of the entertainment industry in terms of unions, etc (beyond the carny reasons we all already know about and have been mentioned). 

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2 hours ago, Teflon Turtle said:

To be fair, "generally" has been used a few times in this discussion because there will always be outliers. That's a great point about stuntmen, though. Not only that, but the experience of an actor who has done most of his own stunts (or even just a few) will probably be different than that of someone working on a soap opera; if substance abuse issues happen in both actors, it's quite probable that it happens for different reasons.

Let's use one of the the most famous examples: Jackie Chan. You want to see some horrific bumps gone wrong, look at the outtake reels that used to play during/after the credits of some of his films. Chan himself has an injury list to rival or exceed that of Mick Foley, never mind what some of his stunt crew went through.

If anything, that's what pro wrestling reminds me of nowadays. In a sense, you're watching a live-action Jackie Chan fight scene - one take, no do-overs. Sure, pro wrestlers are athletes and have to train like them, but when it comes to the actual work there's a ton in common with an actor who does their own stunts. It has been beyond me for a while why wrestlers aren't afforded the same sort of protections or resources as those in the rest of the entertainment industry in terms of unions, etc (beyond the carny reasons we all already know about and have been mentioned). 

Yeah, I saw one at the end (may have been Rumble in the Bronx) where a female stuntman got knocked out cold during a motorcycle stunt and they just carry her off like an old time silent comedy short. And in that same one, I'm pretty sure Jackie had to do many of his parts in a walking boot disguised cleverly to look like a shoe with movie magic.

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Re: Stuntmen

Cliff Booth is a great example.  Did so much damage to himself that he thinks he kicked Bruce Lee’s ass.  That’s not to mention the fact that he may have murdered his wife  

 

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