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AEW Navel-Gazing Thread Number Two


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11 hours ago, Gordlow said:

Our Starting Point is Kenny, the Bucks, and Cody. Because that's where it started. (And also, like, SoCal Unsensored and Hangman and The Lucha Bros).

My relationship with AEW is so weird.

(I mean, I'll take Cody back and I have nothing against Kaz except for that I really, really don't ever want to see him wrestle)

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22 hours ago, Gordlow said:

I think AEW has kind of outgrown what I personally would most prefer it to be. Perhaps, in a late-stage capitalist world that's all but inevitable. Damn near everything successful above a certain threshold has to, eventually, turn into a soulless corporate monster.

That is an interesting point to ponder, and runs somewhere adjacent to my scattered, random thoughts:

  • indie fans have a personal investment in AEW beyond traditional fandom; the wrestlers are viewed/felt as a living extension of the fan; their success is the fans' collective success (this is not a criticism)
    • a rejection/setback of indie wrestling ("what's with this guy?" "this is silly") is internalized by the fan as a personal rejection (this is not a criticism)
  • loose amalgamation of indie wrestlers sign to AEW = "maverick/outsider" political campaign winning a primary(?)
    • inevitable chafing against corporate structure = "we'll take it from here" DNC/RNC hacks assuming control of campaign(?)
    • but there does need to be some reining in of "everyone do what you want" for it to make cohesive sense in the long-term, doesn't there?
  • an entertaining wrestling card ≠ successful mainstream tv wrestling promotion
    • like, being a good baker doesn't mean you can scale up to a nationally-distributed consumer food product
    • too many stips/weapons/gimmicks on one card can be awesome, but on too many cards it creates fan burnout/fatigue

or maybe not? I don't know. I'm a fan of AEW; I can see why there's tension and conflict within it; I don't know if it can be resolved or not.

 

Edited by Hamhock
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Dustin makes the cut as an ex WWE guy?

 I like the uniqueness of indie wrestling but if you are trying to run a national televised promotion you need someone to keep you from getting to far into the weeds, this maybe where JR comes in. Also to balance out the Indy weirdness and the 70-90s Japanese serious wrestling 

I think Jericho has made MJF and OC better with his feuds with them

Id be fine with the elite leaving, in a sense of pruning the tree encourages fresh growth . You don’t want a situation of Verne putting the title on himself decades past his prime

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 6/3/2023 at 2:22 AM, zendragon said:

Dustin makes the cut as an ex WWE guy?

Yes, but with the caveat that he also makes the cut as an ex WCW guy that only Sting, Schiavone, Arn and JR do, so that makes a world of difference. I don't know what question does this answer, exactly, but I answered this anyway.

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42 minutes ago, Shartnado said:

Yes, but with the caveat that he also makes the cut as an ex WCW guy that only Sting, Schiavone, Arn and JR do, so that makes a world of difference. I don't know what question does this answer, exactly, but I answered this anyway.

This is Wight/Jericho/Jarrett erasure. 

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1 hour ago, zendragon said:

I think we’ve all collectively blocked out wcw from 99 on ward

Jericho and Wight were long gone by then and towards the end we basically had the heart of the future TNA X-division, Hurricane Helms, and AJ styles.

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8 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

This is Wight/Jericho/Jarrett erasure. 

Sorry, you are correct. But I was thinking about the infamous "early  90's WCW" that Cody referred to when he talked about what AEW is going to be like. The cut off point there would be '94 and more specifically that Clash of the Champions where Flair and Sting unified the World and International titles. I don't know the question to this answer either, but Jarrett definitely makes the same cut as Dustin does, there's no doubt about that, albeit in a slightly different way.

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If it's alright with all y'all I'd like to move this thread away from discussion of who is and who is not a WWF/WCW guy (which in my opinion was not really ever the point, though I guess I can see how it would be a fun thing to have opinions about).

I'd like to nudge it gently back in the direction of navel gazing and mental masturbation.

To me (a Canadian living in Japan, so what do I know?) Jazz and Pro Wrestling are two of the greatest and most unique forms of art to come out of America. (Along with, what? Blues. Stand up comedy? Blockbuster popcorn movies?) 

And Jazz and Pro Wrestling have some very important things in common! Both involve improvisation. Both require paying attention to what your fellow performers are up to. The greatest moments in both are * often * unexpected and extemporaneous. It's common for cheesed-off grandpas to proclaim of the latest innovations, "That's NOT Jazz/Wrestling!" Both are WAY better live.

et cetera et cetera

That's Lionel Hampton and Buddy Rich jamming on "Hallelujah" (the c'mon get happy one, not the Leonard Cohen one). Two of the greatest virtuosos (and biggest show-offs) in all of music jamming with an absolute master. And it's phenomenal, in exactly the way you'd expect. All three men, unreservedly, themselves.

Tatum again, this time jamming with one of Duke Ellington's great tenor sax men, Ben Webster. To my ears, it is an absolute masterpiece. One of the most precious gems in the history of recorded music. It's a weird match, Tatum with the most prodigious technique and Webster more known for playing with feeling and tone... But it works like a charm, the tenor sax (it has been said) floating above the piano like clouds lazily reflecting on a fast-running river. Both men, gloriously, themselves.

Webster again, this time with fellow Ellingtonian Sweets Webster. Ben and Sweets is one of my favourite albums because it's two old swing veterans, in the age of bebop, just getting together and doing their thing. Both men, naturally, themselves. 

 

So what's the relevance to pro wrestling?  You have likely worked it out for yourselves already, but this IS the navel gazing thread, so: In wrestling, as in jazz.

Partly, greatness comes in many forms. 

Partly, it's important to be true to yourself.

if Hampton, Rich, and Tatum hadn't gone all out like that it probably would have been disappointing. Them pushing each other to play more, more, more, faster, faster, faster is exhilarating. 

(Kind of like Kenny and Ospreay, for example).

If Tatum had toned down his act to accommodate Webster or if Webster had tried to play as many notes as Tatum, we'd have been robbed of a genuine masterpiece.

(Maybe Samoa Joe vs Darby Allin or Hobbs vs Fenix work as examples of near-masterpieces that worked because both guys just stayed true to themselves. Or, like Tana vs Suzuki or Kenny vs Ishii).

If Ben and Sweets was two legends of swing trying to keep up with the times by playing like Parker & Gillespie, it would pretty likely be one of my LEAST favourite albums. 

(May Suzuki & Ishii keep playing the hits forever, particularly when they face each other. Also Punk & Kojima were certainly better served by not trying to work a full-on go! go! go! style).

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.

 

Edited by Gordlow
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  • 1 month later...

You guys wanna hear Bodyguard singing his AJPW entrance theme? Of course you do! Do you wanna hear Bodyguard and Gordlow duetting (badly) on Terry Funk's theme? Well, too bad. I'm gonna post that, too. Went to the Bodybar a couple of weeks ago with my good friend (also Canadian, now living in the Tokyo area) who used to post here as The Cobra 2. Had a GREAT time. This is another "goodbye for now" post from me. Partly I am busy with other stuff. Partly I have grown terribly weary of the bad faith posters and arguments about meaningless rumours more or less dominating the discussion here these days. Ignore function doesn't help when too many people keep taking the bait. It's actually affecting my ability to enjoy wrestling to the fullest. (as opposed to helping me enjoy wrestling more, which is what I  usually get out of the DVDVR boards). Congrats, Bad Faith Army! You've managed to (indirectly) troll Gordlow off the board, temporarily at least. Know that I love discussing wrestling and sharing laughs with the big handful of you who still post here in good faith. Know that I am sorry to miss out on Secret Santo. I'll continue to lurk, casually. I'll see ya when I see ya.

Gonna post a couple of pictures here (in this post) too when I have time. Let somebody love you, before it's too late.

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Edited by Gordlow
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  • 4 months later...

NOSTALGIA

I don't think my nostalgia w/r/t pro wrestling is *typical* wrestling nostalgia. Partly because of my age, partly because of my personal experience(s) of pro wrestling. And I think it goes a long way to explaining why my taste(s) in wrestling are also often somewhat atypical.

 Of course, EVERYONE's experience/nostalgia/opinions are different and personal.

But some of my experiences are rather unique, even by those standards, I believe.

For example, I was a member of the Vancouver All Star Wrestling roster and a character on their TV show in the mid-1980s. I was "inside" pro wrestling during the era where kayfabe reigned, and I experienced The Death of the Territory System first hand.

For example, I lived in post-communist middle Europe from the mid 90s through the turn of the century, and as such missed out on the Monday Night Wars and ECW etc etc. 

When I came back to Canada, I got RIGHT into tape trading, at first to catch up on what I'd missed. And I ended up writing for Inside Pulse alongside guys like Hyatte and Scott Keith and got to experience the tail end of the "internet insiders" boom first hand as well.

Then, I moved to Japan and was part of the Osaka Pro family from 2009 through 2012, and still maintain ties with many of my friends from those days. 

And it all ties together when some of the survivors from Vancouver All Star make their annual trip to Vancouver to work and party with Asian Cooger!

Kayfabe

It might be reasonable to expect that a guy who wrestled during the 80s would be right there with Cornette and JR when it comes to the sanctity of kayfabe and the necessity of "protecting the business" but in fact it's quite the opposite with me.

"The boys" in the green room at BCTV were SO SERIOUS about it. I was playing a bad guy character, so I wasn't allowed to arrive at the arena with, or give a ride home to, any of the good guys. I was expected to treat the fans at the arena  and studio poorly, not only during the show but also before and after... Curse them out. Threaten them, even. So they'd boo us, later. 

What bullshit! The fans were SO NICE to me, asking for autographs, showing me their photo albums, letting me ride their skateboards, or whatever. I was always getting in trouble in the heel dressing rooms for smiling at the kids and grandmas who wanted to say hello to me.

I was a shitty heel, in other words.

That was in itself a kind of quaint nostalgia, I now believe. The veterans in the locker room had been brought up in wrestling by guys who were themselves brought up in a time where keeping kayfabe probably was important to the business, a time before the cat was well and truly out of the bag. 

By the time I got there, though, even the (often literally toothless) rural fan base that came out to the arena shows in Cloverdale were almost all cognizant that "Thumper" was a bad guy character that they enjoyed booing during the matches whereas "Gordi" was a relatively easy-going and friendly person, with a nice girlfriend, who played that character on TV. 

We used to be able to sneak into the backstage entrance area at the Pacific Coliseum when the WWF was in town and get pictures with the wrestlers. The heels were always the friendliest. Then one day someone put a stop to it. I bet it was an old guy with a stick up his ass about kayfabe. 

What bullshit!

Anyway, that goes a certain distance in explaining why I was happier when Orange Cassidy was just a weird guy who wrestled lazily and not some clever strategist playing subtle mind games. The cat is WELL AND TRULY out of the bag now, and has been for a very long time. Why not have some fun with it?

 

That was massively reinforced by my time as a regular member of the ringside crowd at Osaka Pro shows and a participant in their many drinking parties and social events during my first few years here in Japan. The heel/face and wrestler/fan divides fell away and we could all be one big happy drunken laughing family. It was a kind of paradise. 

And the comedy! Based on tweaking the sacred tropes of pro wrestling in a loving way. I am still amazed that so many people could understand and enjoy that!

Which goes a fair way in explaining why I loved the "Ring of Friendship" "All Friends Wrestling" era of AEW and LOVED that they had succeeded in taking that beautiful sense of community to a place where TEN THOUSAND PEOPLE could feel a part of it all at once and why I mourn that they pissed that away trying to appease JR, and Cornette fans; that they pissed it away in a failed attempt to bring in the mythical huge casual fan base.

 

MEMBER BERRIES

Speaking of pandering...

Good Lord! That Sting/Flair promo in Carolina where they LITERALLY came out and were, like, "Member Bam Bam Bigelow? Member him?" And the crowd were, like, " YEAH! WE MEMBER! WE MEMBER!"

Fucking hell. I was flabbergasted. Then in the same show (I believe. Certainly it was the same week) MJF LITERALLY said "Good memberberries" or "nice memberberries" to Hangman in their backstage bit. I

I know they are not trying to troll me, Gordlow, specifically. They aren't aware that I exist. But I hope I can be forgiven for kind of feeling like maybe they were.

I get why those specific memberberries would work on a Charlotte Coliseum crowd. I don't begrudge them that simple pleasure. But oh boy did that segment stoke the fires of my concern that AEW is putting away "doing original and challenging stuff" in favour of "Let's stoke the memberberries fires!" 

 And, because I was out of town for the MNW/ECW era and because I was generally more into trading tapes than watching TV in the subsequent era and in particular because the main two dudes I was into watching on that era of TV both met tragic and awful ends i DON'T HAVE HAPPY NOSTALGIA for those days. 

So I am not excited for Edge vs Christian, again. 

And to be honest bringing Flair in has me, personally, less hyped for Sting's Last Match.

Not so much complaining here as just trying to understand/explain my own feelings.

 

It's not that I am anti-nostalgia. I got right into Muta/Mutoh's retirement tour, for example. Marked out hard, more than once. I went out of my way to be there for Manabu Nakanishi's last match in Osaka and got emotional during it.

But, I guess when the lazy as fuck cheap heat nostalgia pops are aimed somewhere where my nostalgia is lacking... The laziness just feels too painfully obvious.

 

My Problem With Nigel

It's not like I hate heel commentators. Hell, I WAS a heel commentator in the 1980s! 

It's not that Nigel is BAD at being a heel commentator. He certainly plays the role well enough. He is getting better at knowing when not to speak. 

It's that, in 2023, a heel commentator is blatant memberberries type bullshit cheap nostalgia. It's disingenuous. It's, "Hey! Member Bobby Heenan? Member Jesse The Body? You liked them, right?"

 Even more than Statlander being a literal alien or Orange's lazy kicks, even more than Evil Uno playing a game of Uno on Being the Elite,  the thing that I feel invited the new fan (like myself) into the AEW community in the glorious first couple of years was the relaxed friendly laid back natural honest chatting going on at the commentary desk. Particularly on Dark or during picture in picture on the international feed. Just likeable guys like Mark Henry and Big Show and Taz and Ex and Tony making each other laugh and being themselves and not playing some bullshit character. Meaning what they said and saying what they meant and joking around loosely. SUCH a refreshing change from the horrific corporate speak on WWE's show. 

I feel like Nigel's disingenuous heel announcer character is a huge step away from that refreshing honesty and freedom and toward a kind of empty pandering to how things used to be.

Personally, I'd rather Nigel just be himself instead of playing an over the top heel character.

Anyway

The days of AEW being a warm-hearted community-based genuine alternative to corporate wrestling are over. We are well into the late capitalist "WE MUST GROW!" stage and memberberrying seems to be a big part of the Challenge Brand strategy .

Ironically, it leaves me feeling nostalgic for the halcyon days of 2019 😀

And there is still SO MUCH great wrestling week in and week out anyway, so I am really mostly sad that they want to present it in a more polished and professional way rather than in a more warm and rumpled way. In a "maybe this will make people like us" way (which it won't) rather than a "just be true to your weird self" way. 

 

Edited by Gordi the former AEW fan
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ON THE OTHER HAND:

If you are going to pander to wrestling fan nostalgia, maybe bring in the ghost of Classy Fred Blassie! He would appeal to WWF Universe denizens, fans of the territory days, and pencil neck geeks like me who only like Japanese wrestling. Add the ghost of Blassie to the A Farewell To Sting storyline! It could go a little something... like... THIS:

 

Announcer: After a series of staggering defeats, Sting, Darby, and Flair assembled in the backstage area in March 2024 for a meeting with famed manager Classy Fred Blassie. And, luckily for us, the cameras were rolling.

Blassie: Alright, you pencil neck geeks, I think we’re ready to lay this first match out. By the way, my name is Fred Blassie. Yes, the Fred Blassie. And I gotta tell you: fellas.. you have got what appears to be a dynamite ring chemistry.

Sting: Coming from you, Fred, that means a lot.

Darby: Yeah. I mean, you’re Fred Blassie!

Ric Flair: It’s… wooo!

Darby: I can’t believe Fred Blassie digs our workrate!

Blassie: Easy, guys.. I put my pants on just like the rest of you – one leg at a time. Except, my pants are bright red and covered in rhinestones. [ the group laughs ] Alright, here we go. “Revolution 2024 Main Event” – take one. [ exits into the Gorilla Position ]

 

[ the group begins the match. Flair struts around, Sting howls, and Darby lays Sting out with a Coffin Drop ]

Sting: [ angry ] Okay! Wait! Wait! [ everyone stops ] Fred, could you come in here for a minute, please?

Blassie: [ stepping out of the Gorilla Position ] That was gonna be a great match. Guys, what’s the deal?

Sting: Are you sure that was going okay?

Blassie: I’ll be honest.. you pencil necked geek, it was going great. But.. I could’ve used a little more Coffin Drop. So.. let’s take it again.. and, Darb…

Darby: Yeah?

Blassie: Really explore the ring this time. I mean, really.. explore the space. I like what I’m seeing.

[ the match starts again, with Darby Coffin Dropping Sting even more fiercely than before. In Gorilla, Blassie is smiling. ]

Sting: Okay, wait! Stop! I’m sorry. Fred, could you come back in here, please?

Blassie: [ stepping out of Gorilla Position ] You pencil neck geek, grit-eatin’ freak, scum sucking pea head with a hulking physique.. That last one was even better than the first!

Sting: Well, it’s just that I find Darby's Coffin Dropping distracting! If I’m the only one, I’ll shut up.

Ric Flair: It was kind of.. wooo!

Darby: You know, I could pull back a little. If you’d like.

Blassie: Not too much, though! Fellas, I’m telling you – you’re gonna want that Coffin Drop in the match!

Darby: You know what? It’s fine. Let’s just do this thing.

[ they start the match up again. Darby immediately tries to Coffin Drop Sting again. ]

Sting: [ fighting Darby ] Come on, people!

Blassie: [ walking out of the Gorilla Position again ] That.. that doesn’t work for me. I gotta have more Coffin Drop!

Flair: [ grabs Darby's shirt ] Don’t blow this for us, Darby!

Sting: Yeah, quit being so selfish, Darby!

Darby: Can I just say one thing?

Blassie: Say it, baby. Say it.

Darby: I’m standing here, staring at Classy Fred Blassie!

Blassie: The Hollywood fashion plate, baby!

Darby: And if Fred Blassie wants more Coffin Drop, we should probably give him more Coffin Drop!

Blassie: Say it, baby!

Darby: And, Stinger, you are right – I am being selfish. But the last time I checked, we don’t have a whole lot of matches that don’t end with me looking up at the lights.

Blassie: I gotta have more Coffin Drop, baby!

Darby: ..and I’ll be doing myself a disservice — and every member of this faction, if I don’t Coffin Drop the hell out of you.

Blassie: Guess what? I got a fever! And the only prescription.. is more Coffin Drop!

Batista: Thanks, Fred. But I think, maybe if I just leave.. and, maybe I’ll come back later, and you guys can lay out the match.. [ starts to leave the arena ]

 

Blassie: They say, ‘these geeks come a dime a dozen.’ I’m lookin’ for the guy who’s supplyin’ the dimes.

Sting:  Darby, wait! Why don’t you lay out that match right now. With us. Together.

[ everyone agrees ]

Darby: Do you mean that, Stinger?

Ric Flair: He speaks for all of us.

[ pregnant pause ]

Ric Flair: Wooo!

Darby: Thank you.

Blassie: Babies.. before we’re done here.. you’ll all have had your chance to wear the Big Ole’ Gold Belt.

Flair: [ suspicious ] What does that mean?

Blassie: Never question Fred Blassie!

[ apparently elated, Sting lifts Darby onto the top turnbuckle. Blassie and Flair take a couple of steps towards the Gorilla Position, stop, turns slowly, and give Darby the “Four Horsemen” signal. Close-up on Darby as he absolutely nails Sting with the Coffin Drop. ]

Freeze-frame with graphic: “In Memoriam: Sting's in-ring career: November 25, 1985 - March 3, 2024” ]

Edited by Gordi the former AEW fan
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I'm with you on Nigel, for sure, I think you've nailed my problem with him. He's actually very good at what he does, I just don't think it helps to have anyone doing it.

Reading the rest of what you wrote, here and elsewhere, does make me question what I like and don't like about AEW, and wrestling in general. I got into it from the start because it seemed like a promising alternate major league wrestling company, with a bunch of wrestlers I already liked, and The Young Bucks, who I didn't like but at least indicated that tag wrestling would be treated seriously.

A lot of their earlier signings to fill out the roster seem very indie in retrospect, probably because they were, but I fucking loved that they'd have Kip Sabian almost take Hangman to the time limit, or Kenny and Janela have a mad brawl on Dark. The Cody challenge made every week exciting. 'Warhorse, oh, I've heard of him, that will be interesting.' Then he gets a shot, doesn't really convince, but hey, maybe Eddie Kingston will. Oh look, Eddie Kingston rules, signed.

The looseness to it, and the sense that anyone could get pushed if they got over, that no one was being punished for obscure reasons or treated as a non-entity because they weren't an established star, was great.

Then there were all the pandemic releases, and loads of my favourite WWE wrestlers who were being wasted got signed, and most of them seemed like upgrades on anyone outside the main event. When Hager debuted on the first Dynamite I was encouraged that they'd signed another credible main eventer, now they have about 25 of those and the idea of giving him any sort of push seems absurd.

Meanwhile, I finally stopped watching Raw and Smackdown a couple of years ago, partly because of the dominant, part time champion hellscape, partly because of unwatchable Vince garbage, and probably mainly because my girlfriend got into wrestling through me and she can't stand most of their presentation, so why would I inflict it on her when we can enjoy most other wrestling together?

The idea that WWE is good now under HHH confuses the shit out of me. There are really good wrestlers there, and I watch the PLEs and NXT, but you still have Akira Tozawa being a comedy jobber, and a fake tertiary world title, and corporate new-speak, and 20 minute scripted promos starting a show.

And I will always love pro wrestling and AEW still seems leagues ahead of the alternative, so they have quite a lot of rope before I'd consider even missing a Rampage, let alone giving up altogether. I guess, in conclusion, my philosophy on wrestling is pretty flexible. Pure, sports based NJPW main event kinda stuff is my favourite, but I love an elaborate storyline if it sticks the landing, I love a heel turn, it doesn't take long for me to get nostalgic about total Wrestlecrap gimmickry as long as it's swept under the carpet quickly enough to become an obscure shared reference and doesn't eat up too much TV time. I love that Edge and Christian can treat the last two decades of their careers as canon and have a feud in AEW, even if match wise I'd prefer a 40 minute Danielson vs Garcia technical classic taking up half the show, or Hook vs Swerve, or Buddy Matthews vs anyone.

Ultimately I want a variety show, I want to feel like any style of wrestling could break out from segment to segment, and I want talented performers who are floundering in one company to be able to go and realise their potential in another. I never got into comics because I found the idea of all those years of interconnected lore overwhelming, but they also lose their appeal to me the second they become too self contained. Wrestling is like a lifelong, real life comic where I do know most of the story threads and character histories like the back of my hand, so as long wrestling as a whole continues to satisfy that need, I don't care too much about the minutiae, even if I'll discuss and think about it ad nauseam. Still couldn't care less about The Bloodline, though.

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So reading through a lot of AEW pondering lately has given me  questions that I'd love to see answered:

 

1. Was Orange Cassidy supposed to remain the same character for the entirety of his AEW career, and if not, what SHOULD he have developed into?

 

2. With WWE being hotter than ever and having all the more resources to acquire wrestlers who've made their name nationally while being All Elite, what on Earth can AEW do to prevent their top stars from being wooed away for the "big leagues"? 

2A. Could AEW ever become "the big leagues" if folks like Orange Cassidy don't evolve into less niche/more mainstream wrestlers?

 

🖤🖤🖤

Edited by Coletti
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I think the “problem” with Orange is that he’s an awesome wrestler. I think if he was more limited, he would’ve stayed in that same character (Danhausen?). But when you’ve got someone who can fucking go like he can, it’s hard to keep him as this comedy character forever. 

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In general, different people just want different things, and that's ok. There's a question of lore vs "X of the week" stories or serialization vs standalone. There isn't necessarily a right or wrong answer. It comes down to personal tastes and your tastes can change as you age and also as you become more or less comfortable with yourself and your hobbies. A lot of people in their late teenage years or early 20s feel self-conscious about their hobbies and feel like things need to be super serious or have to deconstruct tropes and norms in a cynical sort of way. I think that serious and complex are two different things personally and while there may be overlap, it's not even close to 100%. It goes back to the notion of realism in pro wrestling. Probably the least useful statement in pro wrestling criticism is "That wouldn't happen in a real fight?" or "Well, we know now in MMA that doesn't happen." Realism doesn't help fictional storytelling but a consistent set of narrative rules does help create a fictional universe and sets up certain consequential weight and expectations for the audience. Consistency and careful pushing and pulling at the unreal tapestry is more important than trying to make things real. 

There's a joy ("Gordi's Joy") to be found in people just trying to entertain one another and pop one another and impress one another happy if anyone comes along for the ride and happy if they don't. I think there's still an element of that to, let's say, the BCC and Moxley in particular actually. You can see it with his shirts. He just wants to go out there and paint his picture for himself and his pals. Obviously that picture is wildly different than what the Elite were doing, but it feels undeniable to me. 

It's the old Monty Python or early SNL mentality. Or the early seasons Simpsons writers room I guess. 

Thinking through the difference between Gordi and myself, I think a lot of it is that wrestling is a relatively solitary hobby for me. I don't watch with other people in front of a TV. I actually don't think I've seen any wrestling on a television screen as opposed to a phone or computer screen since 2010? Maybe earlier. That's not at all a made up figure. I have seen maybe two shows live in the last fifteen years. I engage with you guys, of course. I write about it. I have some friends I talk to online one-on-one about it, but I imagine it's an entirely different way to consume wrestling than how Gordi does it and that, in part, leads to different mindset and different pros and different cons in what I want.

BUT 7 hours of wrestling a week is a LOT of wrestling. And there's plenty of room for things that Gordi likes and things that I like and things that both of us like and probably even things that neither of us like but that someone else likes. I'm ok with that. 

Edited by Matt D
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On 6/27/2023 at 5:55 AM, Gordi the former AEW fan said:

If it's alright with all y'all I'd like to move this thread away from discussion of who is and who is not a WWF/WCW guy (which in my opinion was not really ever the point, though I guess I can see how it would be a fun thing to have opinions about).

I'd like to nudge it gently back in the direction of navel gazing and mental masturbation.

To me (a Canadian living in Japan, so what do I know?) Jazz and Pro Wrestling are two of the greatest and most unique forms of art to come out of America. (Along with, what? Blues. Stand up comedy? Blockbuster popcorn movies?) 

And Jazz and Pro Wrestling have some very important things in common! Both involve improvisation. Both require paying attention to what your fellow performers are up to. The greatest moments in both are * often * unexpected and extemporaneous. It's common for cheesed-off grandpas to proclaim of the latest innovations, "That's NOT Jazz/Wrestling!" Both are WAY better live.

et cetera et cetera

That's Lionel Hampton and Buddy Rich jamming on "Hallelujah" (the c'mon get happy one, not the Leonard Cohen one). Two of the greatest virtuosos (and biggest show-offs) in all of music jamming with an absolute master. And it's phenomenal, in exactly the way you'd expect. All three men, unreservedly, themselves.

Tatum again, this time jamming with one of Duke Ellington's great tenor sax men, Ben Webster. To my ears, it is an absolute masterpiece. One of the most precious gems in the history of recorded music. It's a weird match, Tatum with the most prodigious technique and Webster more known for playing with feeling and tone... But it works like a charm, the tenor sax (it has been said) floating above the piano like clouds lazily reflecting on a fast-running river. Both men, gloriously, themselves.

Webster again, this time with fellow Ellingtonian Sweets Webster. Ben and Sweets is one of my favourite albums because it's two old swing veterans, in the age of bebop, just getting together and doing their thing. Both men, naturally, themselves. 

 

So what's the relevance to pro wrestling?  You have likely worked it out for yourselves already, but this IS the navel gazing thread, so: In wrestling, as in jazz.

Partly, greatness comes in many forms. 

Partly, it's important to be true to yourself.

if Hampton, Rich, and Tatum hadn't gone all out like that it probably would have been disappointing. Them pushing each other to play more, more, more, faster, faster, faster is exhilarating. 

(Kind of like Kenny and Ospreay, for example).

If Tatum had toned down his act to accommodate Webster or if Webster had tried to play as many notes as Tatum, we'd have been robbed of a genuine masterpiece.

(Maybe Samoa Joe vs Darby Allin or Hobbs vs Fenix work as examples of near-masterpieces that worked because both guys just stayed true to themselves. Or, like Tana vs Suzuki or Kenny vs Ishii).

If Ben and Sweets was two legends of swing trying to keep up with the times by playing like Parker & Gillespie, it would pretty likely be one of my LEAST favourite albums. 

(May Suzuki & Ishii keep playing the hits forever, particularly when they face each other. Also Punk & Kojima were certainly better served by not trying to work a full-on go! go! go! style).

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.

 

Love this Gordi! Great comparison. I’m a fan of both Webster and ‘God’, but have never heard this collaborative long player. Awesome! 

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