AEW Navel-Gazing Thread Number Two

[Matt D]

If I had to sum up the biggest problem with Dynamite especially it would be this: 

The show moves too quickly but the stories move too slowly.

[Craig H]

4 hours ago, Matt D said:

If I had to sum up the biggest problem with Dynamite especially it would be this: 

The show moves too quickly but the stories move too slowly.

That's 100% accurate. I brought this up before, but AEW is less about long term storytelling and more about relationship building to give TK the option to revist matches or feuds or beefs whenever he wants without running into issues with continuity. The problem with that is. For example, when OC and Bandido ran in for the save on Wednesday, Excalibur brings up the previous issues OC and Adam Cole had with each other. I'm a big wrestling nerd, but Cole has been out for months with a broken brain and his issues with OC happened months before that even happened.

It's a little too much. I think it's easy for TK to understand because he probably has a super sweet Excel spreadsheet that tracks all of this stuff. The problem for fans is that it's asking too much of us to remember EVERYTHING. Like, sometimes I will recall something from a year ago and think, oh, that's pretty cool that just because all this time has passed that these people still can't stand each other. The problem is, TK does that for EVERYONE.

This then leads to issues with consistency because if we go by my hypothesis that TK's using a spreadsheet to track all of this stuff, it probably means that TK thinks that he can book a match or two week feud between guys and then be able to revisit that weeks or even months later. Again, another example, Swerve and Keith Lee. Swerve turns on Lee, we NEVER get a match between the guys, the feud isn't really a feud it's just a bad relationship that TK can revisit at any time. The problem is that pro wrestling, and not even WWE's form of it, but historically pro wrestling is built on feuds with people being consistently used. Lee and Swerve could have been a hot hot feud, but with all the time that has passed, I don't even give a shit.

The only things that receive the type of consistency as far as feuds and wrestler usage goes are anything with JAS, and even then the stuff with Action Andretti went no where and the underlying beef with Garcia and Sammy went nowhere, or BCC, or the Elite. For the women it's easier because they get one segment per week so it's either the Jade show or it's the Britt show. And I can guarantee that at some point they'll get back to Garcia not liking being put in leather pants, thinking Sammy is a goof, not liking that he was paired with Sammy, and then bringing it all back to Jericho again. And hey, that will make a great video for a PPV match, but who knows when that will happen. I know it definitely will at some point, but Jesus Christ, it may be a year from now.

[AxB]

So what you’re saying is, AEW is booked for fans who pay attention and remember things, thus contrasting with WWE and the way it treats fans like goldfish?

[Craig H]

Just now, AxB said:

So what you’re saying is, AEW is booked for fans who pay attention and remember things, thus contrasting with WWE and the way it treats fans like goldfish?

Yes? But I think AEW takes it to such an extreme that it hampers the week to week presentation and it makes it frustrating to watch at times.

[zendragon]

Triple J is still carrying around that golden globe … there’s hope for putting it on a pole in a cage match with Chuck Taylor in a gorilla suit

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

8 hours ago, Craig H said:

That's 100% accurate. I brought this up before, but AEW is less about long term storytelling and more about relationship building to give TK the option to revist matches or feuds or beefs whenever he wants without running into issues with continuity. The problem with that is. For example, when OC and Bandido ran in for the save on Wednesday, Excalibur brings up the previous issues OC and Adam Cole had with each other. I'm a big wrestling nerd, but Cole has been out for months with a broken brain and his issues with OC happened months before that even happened.

It's a little too much. I think it's easy for TK to understand because he probably has a super sweet Excel spreadsheet that tracks all of this stuff. The problem for fans is that it's asking too much of us to remember EVERYTHING. Like, sometimes I will recall something from a year ago and think, oh, that's pretty cool that just because all this time has passed that these people still can't stand each other. The problem is, TK does that for EVERYONE.

This then leads to issues with consistency because if we go by my hypothesis that TK's using a spreadsheet to track all of this stuff, it probably means that TK thinks that he can book a match or two week feud between guys and then be able to revisit that weeks or even months later. Again, another example, Swerve and Keith Lee. Swerve turns on Lee, we NEVER get a match between the guys, the feud isn't really a feud it's just a bad relationship that TK can revisit at any time. The problem is that pro wrestling, and not even WWE's form of it, but historically pro wrestling is built on feuds with people being consistently used. Lee and Swerve could have been a hot hot feud, but with all the time that has passed, I don't even give a shit.

The only things that receive the type of consistency as far as feuds and wrestler usage goes are anything with JAS, and even then the stuff with Action Andretti went no where and the underlying beef with Garcia and Sammy went nowhere, or BCC, or the Elite. For the women it's easier because they get one segment per week so it's either the Jade show or it's the Britt show. And I can guarantee that at some point they'll get back to Garcia not liking being put in leather pants, thinking Sammy is a goof, not liking that he was paired with Sammy, and then bringing it all back to Jericho again. And hey, that will make a great video for a PPV match, but who knows when that will happen. I know it definitely will at some point, but Jesus Christ, it may be a year from now.

Yes. Absolutely. The problem is that they are not yet ENOUGH like WWE. Nailed it. 

 

Honestly, I think most AEW fans are intelligent enough and have memories that function well enough to retain the idea that Lee and Swerve have beef and Garcia is really a wrestler at heart, even without the use of a spreadsheet.

 

Certainly no need to LCD things further, in my view.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Gordlow

[Craig H]

2 hours ago, Gordlow said:

Yes. Absolutely. The problem is that they are not yet ENOUGH like WWE. Nailed it. 

You completely misunderstood my point, but whatever.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

Speaking as a casual observer, I think some of you are taking this as "AEW is expecting me to remember these things without reminders, they are respecting my intelligence", and some of you are thinking "AEW doesn't care enough to dedicate focus to this matter in a timely fashion, so why should I care about it", and now y'all are about to get up and start fighting like it's American Gladiators with those big sticks on the podiums for my entertainment.

[twiztor]

12 hours ago, Sparkleface said:

Speaking as a casual observer, I think some of you are taking this as "AEW is expecting me to remember these things without reminders, they are respecting my intelligence", and some of you are thinking "AEW doesn't care enough to dedicate focus to this matter in a timely fashion, so why should I care about it", and now y'all are about to get up and start fighting like it's American Gladiators with those big sticks on the podiums for my entertainment.

wait, is that an option? i'm on whichever side of this gets me to be able to American Gladiators style joust. 

MOAR WWE "ten minutes ago" videos! 
  MOAR obscure JAPW references and feuds! 
MOAR evil foreigners! 
  MOAR NJPW legends showing up and being revered! 
MOAR divas! 
  MOAR TNA knockouts matches!

[zendragon]

@Gordlowwatching what’s become of his beloved AEW

[Matt D]

Let's see how we all feel after the ROH taping this weekend. That may be the path. Tonight's show looks like a good deal of fun in the old AEW style after all.

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

Not to be mawkish, and not to try and make it "about me"

but..

My bullshit heel turn is officially over. (I wanted to do an MJF gimmick, where I am trying to be an edgelord heel but almost everyone can see through it). 

The part about not digging current AEW as much is 85% real, though.

But right now who gives a shit.

Like, I think it's safe to assume, a lot of us, I am suddenly confronted with the stark realization of how important my online wrestling friends are to me. I can still barely see to type through my tears. 

Fucks sake.

Wrestling is awesome. We are so lucky to have each other to discuss it with. 

I will miss "PEE! GORDLOW! PEE!" and " GODDAMMIT GORDLOW! " so much. SO much.

i appreciate all of you here, even (sometimes particularly) those of you I almost always disagree with.

(Except for that one hateful. racist, sexist, homophobic prick that we got banned. Fuck that guy).

How lucky am I to have a place to Navel-gaze about wrestling and have other people join in? What a gift this place is, and you folks are. Hope I never take this for granted.

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Absolutely made my day. Every time.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Gordlow

[John E. Dynamite]

12 minutes ago, Gordlow said:

Not to be mawkish, and not to try and make it "about me"

but..

My bullshit heel turn is officially over. (I wanted to do an MJF gimmick, where I am trying to be an edgelord heel but almost everyone can see through it). 

The part about not digging current AEW as much is 95% real, though.

But right now who gives a shit.

Like, I think it's safe to assume, a lot of us, I am suddenly confronted with the stark realization of how important my online wrestling friends are to me. I can still barely see to type through my tears. 

Fucks sake.

Wrestling is awesome. We are so lucky to have each other to discuss it with. 

I will miss "PEE! GORDLOW! PEE!" and " GODDAMMIT GORDLOW! " so much. SO much.

i appreciate all of you here, even (sometimes particularly) those of you I almost always disagree with.

(Except for that one hateful. racist, sexist, homophobic prick that we got banned. Fuck that guy).

How lucky am I to have a place to Navel-gaze about wrestling and have other people join in? What a gift this place is, and you folks are. Hope I never take this for granted.

 

(Insert DEAN quotes here)

 

 

 

 

dude I have a stark memory of being a very depressed fifth-of-Dewars a day twenty year old bastard who reached out to the board for a full show to watch + review. i was failing out of my English major and wanted to be like DEAN. you recommended pretty solid Osaka Pro show - i remember the main event featured a dude in a dog mask. i wrote a full big review of the show but I was having a really negative week and i did NOT do the enthusiastic DEAN thing and ack-sen-shoe-ate the positive, i just grumbled through it and wasted my words. i remember waking up and feeling like a douche about it, but you responded to my amateur cynicism with nothing but positivity and poise.

it was a moment where it really clicked for me, that the tone of this board is different. i don't inhabit a more positive place on the internet than here, nowhere else can i "Sincerepost" at this level and have it matter so much.

*gazes at navel* maybe that's the AEW problems, y'know? It was ALL FRIENDS WRESTLING during these dark times for the world and for the locker room and when the Punk drama and all those shooty storylines started popping up, it turned cynical and different. in that regard, i would say that the product has been improving a ton in recent months. maybe the reality show is providing a silly outlet for the drama, maybe the Punk return has lead to more apologies and emotional-inventory-taking than we realize, maybe people just grew up. I think with Toronto and London on the horizon, in particular, we can get back to AEW being a place where people can just get the fuck together and like wrestling

Edited May 5, 2023 by John E. Dynamite

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

48 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

dude I have a stark memory of being a very depressed fifth-of-Dewars a day twenty year old bastard who reached out to the board for a full show to watch + review. i was failing out of my English major and wanted to be like DEAN. you recommended pretty solid Osaka Pro show - i remember the main event featured a dude in a dog mask. i wrote a full big review of the show but I was having a really negative week and i did NOT do the enthusiastic DEAN thing and ack-sen-shoe-ate the positive, i just grumbled through it and wasted my words. i remember waking up and feeling like a douche about it, but you responded to my amateur cynicism with nothing but positivity and poise.

it was a moment where it really clicked for me, that the tone of this board is different. i don't inhabit a more positive place on the internet than here, nowhere else can i "Sincerepost" at this level and have it matter so much.

*gazes at navel* maybe that's the AEW problems, y'know? It was ALL FRIENDS WRESTLING during these dark times for the world and for the locker room and when the Punk drama and all those shooty storylines started popping up, it turned cynical and different. in that regard, i would say that the product has been improving a ton in recent months. maybe the reality show is providing a silly outlet for the drama, maybe the Punk return has lead to more apologies and emotional-inventory-taking than we realize, maybe people just grew up. I think with Toronto and London on the horizon, in particular, we can get back to AEW being a place where people can just get the fuck together and like wrestling

I remember that! I think you at one point typed something like "Gordberg is FAT!" to show how little you appreciated my recommendation. That got a 100% legit lol outa me.

Speaking of sincereposting: THANK YOU for making that sign and getting it on camera. What a fitting tribute. I am sure "it got a bit smokey" in a few places when people saw that.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Gordlow

[Log]

Damn. I hadn't seen the news yet when I read these posts.

 

[Matt D]

One thing that is somewhat undeniable is that they've brought in a ton of ex-WWE backstage talents over the last few years. Some of this is due to WWE downsizing. Some of it is because the guys at the top of the WWE chain refuse to retire. Some of it is a cascading effort. I do think there's been a noticeable shift from Keith Mitchell leaving to there being a void for a bit to Michael Mansury taking over. Yes, we don't see it in quick camera cuts or WWE style buzzwords, but there are things like the talking heads before the PPV on Sunday that feel a little bit unquestionable. Some of it is good. Some is bad. I personally miss having a few extra pre-show matches but I like wrestling. 

Even Renee coming in gives it a certain feel. Jarrett as Director of Business Development. Etc.

They just brought in a new Social Media/Communications guy (Adam Hopkins) who had been with WWE for 25 years. I know from my job, we bring in a lot of people from another agency a lot because we have to hire local and if we do, this is one of the only places where there was comparable work being done and we have to spend the first six months shaking them of their former corporate culture. On the one hand, it's good to bring in people with tons of expertise, but there's a difference between wrestling and between people who have only ever known WWE as what defines wrestling.

[Octopus]

Me bitching and not saying much in coming….

The last two PPV’s were maybes for me. I ended up getting Revolution and was very glad I did. Excellent main event (becoming among an all time favorite for me), a wild tag team silly Willy four way, an intense Texas Death Match, and Christian Cage had a sleeveless turtleneck. What I’d want in an AEW event!  Double or Nothing just didn’t have it for me and I decided not to get it way sooner. At least the Forbidden Door was a last minute no that I regretted. Outside of gifs, I don’t think I’ll go out of my way for the last event. Which is a shame for a company that even when I’m not sold on the stories usually makes me feel my money was well spent. 

Anarchy in the Arena I bet was a hoot. The last one was fantastic. I’m sure the Four Pillar 4-way Thrillar was fun, but I’m not really interested in that as a title match. I can see it being Tony investing in giving them these moments like when you draft a QB and feel the need to give them important playing time. This felt like a TV special main that could have either had a shorter build or not make me long for having Rush in Jungle Boys spot. I find Darby very unique and cool and someone you could really make money off of with great television and matches. I think MJF can be hokey at times but is a very good champion. Sammy needs help on the direction of his character. If he doesn’t go on a face attempt after the pregnancy announcement then what was all this for? If he does go on a face run, be very careful because you can only attempt this so many times. Don’t let him have dumb moments where he comes across like a douche. In a weird way, if you replaced Cole with him in that same Jericho feud with a beat up girlfriend (please no now that Tay is pregnant) then Sammy could have pulled it off better. More on that later. I’ve never been a Jungle Boy boy. I used to be in the camp where he is getting better and with his looks and a willingness to get more experience could really be a popular fella. I’ve now seen him in a build for a championship match and I don’t see him anywhere near there. This is dumb of me, I admit, but that was a factor in me not getting the PPV. 

Statlander is champ. Neat. Now hopefully we get good weekly women’s matches around this belt. Outside of the Ladies World Order that is now holding the World Women’s Title. TBS Championship can be the workrate belt. Even if you don’t want Statlander weekly, you have a number 1 contender match and can spread it out. 

ramble ramble ramble

Sunny Matt D and Gord Julius are right, there are certain uncanny elements to the recent feeling of AEW that have a Sports Entertainment feel. I think the matches are likely still often better than WWE, but no one can out WWE the WWE. You can be less than, worse than, or different than. Give me the alternative. I like Jarrett shenanigans but we’re getting it along with JAS and the Outsiderz. The Elite have shenanned once and I could see them shenan-again. 
ramble ramble rambl

i won’t spell check this and I no longer know where I’m going with this.

ramble ramble ramble

Nyla Rose stealing the belt from Jade was the best part of her title run. That was straight up neat and showed a fun side to both Nyla and Jade. Staying on Jade, what’s the deal with the Baddies. It came into existence almost randomly and I don’t know who is in and who is out. Red Velvet was a face that wasn’t getting cheered (often facing hometown talent) so she turned Baddie. But it was done not with a shocking in ring handshake. It was explained by the announcers, if I recall correctly. Wasted opportunity that tells me that if a show doesn’t care enough to show the talents character development, I shouldn’t care. You had bleach hair McNair having a bag over his head for like a year and when you finally do something, he just gets beat and it was revealed poorly. You wasted a year of My Chemical Romance’s Welcome to the Black Parades’ time and mine! The Dark Order was beloved and their slow disappearance is a disappointment and failure of booking. Absolutely embarrassingly bad.

ramble ramble. 

I remembered I liked the Cole vs Hangman match from one of the PPV’s. It had a different feel from the other matches on the card and was a joy to end the show one. I was likely bombed depending what the date of that event was.
I’m in the Cole is a better heel camp. I do know nothing on that matter and can very well be wrong. I agree his wrestling as a heel can be excitingly good guy moves, but he has such a swagger to him when he’s pretending to be mean. He either lost that as a face ORRRR is being booked to play victim and then tough guy which comes off awkward. I’ll wait and see. I think everyone here can agree that he is a big draw and regularly moves ratings and merch, so we can drop this.

ramble ramble rambl

I hope we get Danielson v Omega 2 this year and it goes to a hour time limit draw. 

ramble ramble ramble

 calm down Octopus. Everything is fine. Let’s see the next builds now that the current derp is over. 
ramblw ramble

Rush is pretty neat. I hope with the new show that stable can be used well. Speaking of new show, if CM Punk comes back OR doesn’t come back and we get more stupid drama (after I make memes for likes and trophy emojis) I’ll be like “oh shoot” and it’ll really kill my enjoyment likely only temporarily. But for that time period, oh boy.

 I’m typing all of this while getting sweaty on a couch. 
everything sucks but everything’s fine and I’m just hungry but I ate so much noodles what the hell.

karen Jarrett hitting Aubrey with a guitar is funny to me. Keep it up, Tony!

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

I have been thinking too much (as is my habit) about what it is that I (personally) want(ed) out of AEW. 

And I think it's: an easily available, reasonably well-produced, English language pro wrestling show that has the sense of community, the sense of humour, and the sense of creative freedom and experimentation that you get with the weirdest little indies, and that also distinguishes itself * as much as possible * from current North American corporate-style pro wrestling and also does most if not all of the storytelling in the ring and has mostly clean finishes (so in that respect not unlike 70s through 90s All Japan, for example). 

And I really did get something very much like that for close to three years. You may recall how much I enjoyed that and how vociferously I defended it from folks that I perceived to be demanding that AEW behave more like the TV wrestling they grew up on and/or become more homogenized, corporate, and/or slick. 

Anyway, I kind of got to wondering, "What if I had been helping run AEW and completely got my way, and it was all indie wrestlers and friends and Japanese wrestlers and luchadores and AEW didn't bring in a bunch of ex-WWE and NXT wrestlers and didn't go after giants and musclemen and blonde Amazon ladies with massive boobs and reality TV personalities and ex-MMA people unless they pretty clearly fit in with the whole Indies/Japan/Lucha/Friends aesthetic? And also if the Attitude Era/ECW worship and gimmick match overkill was turned down a few notches."

How different would AEW be? What would we be missing out on? 

There would be no Big Paul or Mark Henry. A clear loss, there. Both of then are fun and charming in smallish doses. 

No JR. Sorry. But: A massive positive. He definitely takes more off the table than he brings to the table, these days. Possibly without JR,there would be no TV deal and AEW would never get off the ground. That would be a problem. On the other hand, I imagine he is one of the loudest voices demanding that AEW tone down the weirdness and behave more like the wrestling he remembers from x number of years ago. So, AEW without JR but with TV might be WAY more to my personal taste. 

Dude is a legend, though. Second best ever to do it.

I think you keep Jericho and Danielson because they have that "travelled the world perfecting their craft" thing going for them. Outweighs the WWE connection in my book. So you can have them working commentary with Ex sometimes. I think maybe Nigel could get a full time commentary gig, if he wanted one.

I think you lose Renee and Mox, and those are obviously huge losses in so many ways. Mox has massive indie cred, but maybe the WWE connection outweighs it? I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary.

So obviously the whole presentation is going to be massively different. Rougher, but not necessarily worse. 

I don't think Britt and MJF get pushed as much in my imaginary version of AEW. We put less value on polished and professional mic and character work. Maybe you don't invest the same amount of time and energy on Jade. Everyone's mileage is going to vary on whether that's for the better or the worse.

You never bring Punk in. Hangman, Kenny, Jericho, Danielson, Eddie Kingston, and Cody are in the title scene to start out. Maybe Cody doesn't have to pull himself out of contention. Does Cody leave, in this scenario? If he wants to. In this scenario, AEW is Camelot. 

Once you finish milking every drop out of Young Bucks vs Lucha Bros, Fenix gets elevated to world title contention.

Maybe MiSu and Ishii get shots. Maybe you do more with CIMA early on.

Eventually Sammy, Hobbs, Swerve, Darby etc etc get to climb that proverbial (not literal) ladder. Orange still develops into one of the very best in the world.

Speaking of Hobbs, he's a big guy who gets signed. His arrival in AEW was pretty organic. I could see that happening again in this scenario.

Lance Archer is the in-house giant who plays the Kane role. Wardlow gets the chance to work his way up the ladder and doesn't get derailed by MJF this time. 

You don't bring in Billy Gun, Big Bill, Hagar, or Satnam, and you never realise what you are missing out on.

Bear Country and Gates of Agony get to be big guys with a push. Not sure where you slot Brian Cage in this scenario. 

You probably don't bring in Samoa Joe. Maybe you can get away with bringing in Claudio, though, and he can quickly work his way into contention.

Not sure if you just buy ROH's back catalogue or if you make it a completely separate thing. If the latter, that's where Joe and Claudio go. Mark Briscoe, too. If no active ROH then Claudio and Briscoe join the crowded title scene. 

You never bring in Adam Cole, Andrade, Ogogo, Miro, Jarrett, Kingdom, Zack Clayton, or Tony Nese. You probably feel, incorrectly, that the show is WAY worse off without them. (In many cases it is worse off, but not by THAT much).

Workhorsemen, Dark Order, Sonny Kiss, Best Friends, Butcher & Blade, Fuego, Keith Lee, Comoroto, Rush, Bandido, Kommander, Takeshita, Angelico, Tiga Style, and others get more space to shine in. 

You don't bring in Malakai which sounds bad, but instead Buddy and King get to shine without the spooky bullshit, maybe?

We completely miss out on FTR in AEW. Which is maybe the worst thing about this scenario. Also, no Tazz means no Hook. If you wanna bend the rules to let Tazz, Hook, Dax, and Cash in it would make everything better.

Probably no Christian. That would be harder on others than on me, personally.  

Acclaimed, Aussie Open, Bear Country, Best Friends, Buddy & King, Butcher & Blade, Dustin & Lee, Gates of Agony, Private Party, Young Bucks, and various Lucha and Puro teams are constantly featured. Tag wrestling is a huge priority and the tag title matches can headline a PPV.

In the women's division, hopefully we can sometimes have more than one match on a TV show. No Storm definitely hurts. But no Saraya, hence no lousy WWE lite storyline, perhaps balances that out. 

Even without Storm, you can build a hard-hitting division around Emi, Athena, Hayter, Shida, Stat, Legit Leyla, Mercedes Martinez, Nyla, Penelope, Bunny, Willow, Magical Girl, Velvet, Hogan, Billie, Skye Blue etc etc etc. Willow would get the chance to be on top here. You'd see more of Abadon. 

I think you miss out on Ruby, and also don't bring in Madison or Taya. 

 

Possible PPV card:

World Title: Danielson vs Eddie Kingston

Women's Title: Willow vs Mercedes Martinez

Tag Titles: Shida & Stat vs Emi & Athena

Tag Titles: Best Friends vs Ingobernables

Secondary Title: Orange vs Swerve

Secondary Title: Billie Starkz vs Nyla

Trios: Young Bucks & Kenny vs Hangman, Silver & Reynolds

Grudge match: Hobbs vs Bear Boulder

Tag contenders match: Aussie Open vs Komander & Bandido

Opener: Lee Moriarty vs Angelico vs Sonny Kiss vs Fenix

 

I mean: I would be pretty happy with that!

Would it fill an arena? 

 

The other absolute worst thing would be missing out on Brody Lee. Maybe I'd prefer not to have my way, after all, if it means losing out on that.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Gordlow

[Octopus]

Very well stated evaluation of personal biases and self critique. 

[Matt D]

What that made me admit to myself is that I'm far better off for not getting exactly what I want. Watching AEW is a compromise for me. Writing about AEW for Segunda Caida is a bit of a compromise as I inherited the "5 Fingers" from Phil and that not only gave me Darby who might not have been someone I would have gravitated towards naturally and meant that I wrote everything guys like Danielson did, so that pushed me up against wrestlers I wouldn't write about otherwise. But I have stretched my tastes (even if you might not think so) and have come to enjoy most of the roster in one way or another. Three years ago, I probably wasn't sure I'd ever be into any sort of modern wrestling ever again and now I watch six or seven hours of this every week. But that also means it's okay that there's a lot I still don't like too. I have a balance that makes me happy on a weekly basis, generally on my terms, even if they're terms full of compromise. 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Matt D

[JLowe]

The value of Jericho and Danielson is that they put the young guys over. Some argue that Jericho always ends up looking better in the end, but I don't know that I always agree about that. There is a ton of value in having guys with their pedigree who will get in the ring with the budding stars and make them look like superstars. And Jericho on commentary is even more magnanimous. 

And I don't even think of Mox as a WWE guy. That was Dean Ambrose. Jon Moxley is a guy who wrestles in Japan, in indies, wherever he can go to indulge in some glorious pro wrestling violence. He elevates everyone he is in the ring with. We were having debates during his title run(s) last year whether he was being too giving!

 

[twiztor]

thank you for your insight, @Gordlow. while i agree with almost everything you said (i LOVE gimmick matches and would prefer to see more, not less!), i think we mainly differ on which talents would be brought in. 

i agree with @JLowe in that Moxley has shed his WWE tag. He would have done that with or without AEW. His rep for deathmatches in GCW and other indies alone would make him not a WWE guy. i can see your argument for not bringing him in right away, but once he had rehabbed his image a bit (and it wouldn't have taken much!) i don't see a reason to disclude him.

Other than that, i would definitely bring in Samoa Joe, but that is purely based on personal bias. Andrade or Miro i could go either way on, but with their (especially at the time) reputation of "how did WWE miss on these guys?" aura, i wouldn't have an issue with or without them. Not sure if Malakai Black fits the same mold as these two?

as for the women, i thought we'd be seeing a lot more of the Joshi gals. Maybe i was misunderstanding, but i really thought that's what the AEW women's division would be built around early on. i haven't seen a lot of japanese women's wrestling and was excited by the prospect. i remember hearing that they wanted to show off that division akin to how WCW featured lucha talent. especially after what we got instead? huge missed opportunity. and one match a show is still a travesty.

i also notice you didn't mention a trios division. i continue to think that there's lots of opportunity in that realm. a strong push with varying styles (instead of all flippy spotfests) would go a long way to cementing it as engaging and must-watch. i think the House of Black is a good step in the right direction for this, but AEW still has a long way to go.

[AxB]

Samoa Joe isn’t a WWE guy, he’s a TNA guy from ROH.

[John from Cincinnati]

It's funny when we do these types of mental exercises to see who does and doesn't make the cut in our hypothetical AEWs. Three-star Cody has been hit with the rep as a guy who fits better in WWE and was waiting for the best possible moment to run back, but he makes the Gordlow cut. Jericho did his pilgrimage to the Tokyo Dome, so that's enough to wash the stink of WWE off him and return him to his globetrotting roots. Danielson spent a decade in WWE, much of it at the highest levels, but we know he desires to make a pilgrimage of his own so come right in! CM Punk inspired many to broaden their taste in wrestling, helped the 2000s indy boom, sold plenty of discs, but 400+ days as WWE champion is probably disqualifying. The various FTRs and Malakais in the world, well it's hard for them to fit in coming straight out of WWE -- maybe take a few years on the independents as penitence like Cody and Trent and then they might get a look because they'll better fit the mission afterward. I know there's no hard and fast rules here, but who gets thrown in what bucket is fascinating. 

I maintain that the early roster make-up was a result of what talent was available at the time and would always change to something more like what we have now no matter what. AEW hasn't lost any identity to my thinking, so much as Tony as gotten to construct more of what he probably would have wanted from the outset. 

I like the thoughts of "best I don't get everything I want" floating around from a couple people, because there's a bunch of people Tony signed that my knee jerk reaction would have been to pass on. Let's share some very pleasant I Was Wrong Abouts:

• It's Sting! I'd have passed on Sting. I thought he was washed. Didn't think he had much to contribute in a non-wrestling context. Probably very expensive. I forgot how balls-to-the-wall he's always been. Watching back some TNA PPVs for podcast purposes, and even older TNA Sting was always game to jump off the top rope or the King of the Mountain penalty box onto a group of wrestlers just standing around. Shit, I'd forgotten there was an Abyss match where the tacks get poured on the mat and ho-hum just another PPV Sunday where Abyss takes a superfluous tack bump and then STINGER TOOK THE TACK BUMP. He's always seemingly been more down for whatever than I appreciated. I'm happy to have been wrong about Sting.
• Orange Cassidy! One joke wrestler, it'll get old, don't really get it, amateur hour, etc. What a fool I was! Look what we have now! A great run that's elevated a title to the undisputed number two, the workhorse of AEW, so fun to see people write so creatively and appreciatively of his work. I'm happy people like me weren't listened to -- I was wrong about Orange Cassidy.
• Athena! In most of the "which women would you draft from elsewhere for AEW" conversations, she didn't seem to be high on many people's boards. Little did we know she's take the non-troversy over the Jody Threat match and run wild. Vicious, in the moment, captivating! A legit number one that a lot of people would have slept on! Thanks goodness I have no decision-making power, because I was wrong about Athena!
• Various Tony Neses and AR Foxes of the world! AEW has plenty of people! What are they signing X for? Turns out there are some more-than-solid vets out there that raise the level of even your replacement-level lower-card spots. Some great pickups I'd have looked the other way on that I was wrong about! Some very good to have people.
• Jeff Jarrett! Maybe the ultimate "don't judge these people based on where they worked in the past" pick. I don't think as poorly of most of TNA as other people do, but he certainly walked in the door with the potential stink of that on him. Turns out there's room for a fun strutting, stroking, old-school guy who'll hand out the occasional guitar necklace when the situation calls for it! And surprisingly more open-minded about the other wrestling styles he shares a canvas with -- if he never came to AEW, I'd never had heard the mindfuck of Jeff Jarrett of all people praising Vikingo vs Omega. Great that he's here!

So happy I got some things I didn't know I'd want. A good reminder for me to be more open-minded. 

I guess I'd like some things to be different too. No giant stage and screens would be a nice change, but that's probably the price of getting money to produce live primetime wrestling on a major network and that battle is seemingly lost forever. Fewer gimmick matches* too, and maybe don't jump straight to them! Wouldn't just a straight Jericho-Cole singles have been an okay idea? Or Jericho-Roddy? I don't really need Anarchy in the Arena, but I'd love to see a tag or various permutations of those guys facing one another leading up to the tag. 

*does not apply to Darby Allin coffin matches, we probably need another one or two of those already.

Rampage tomorrow looks pretty good though. Even in rough times, you're still getting a healthy serving of what you'd like.

I dunno, we would all make different choices about what we want. Some right, some wronger than we realize. Just be happy it's not worse. It's not like Tony has hired Bully Ray or Tyrus.

Spoiler

Yet! 

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by John from Cincinnati

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

18 hours ago, JLowe said:

. 

... I don't even think of Mox as a WWE guy. That was Dean Ambrose. 

 

14 hours ago, AxB said:

Samoa Joe isn’t a WWE guy, he’s a TNA guy from ROH.

 

7 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

... the stink of WWE ...

I really appreciate all the feedback, and agree it's great that several of us are able to appreciate that 1) it's probably for the best if we don't get *exactly* what we want all the time and 2) sometimes our preconceptions are wrong.

Looking back at my post, I kind of over-emphasised the "WWE stink" in my explanations of who does and who doesn't make my personal hypothetical AEW roster. To be clear, though, my thought process was NOT "let's construct an AEW with zero.of that WWE stink" but rather let's construct a roster that's  "all indie wrestlers and friends" (and Japanese wrestlers and luchadores). The aspect that I emphasised more in my mind than in the post was "friends." 

That goes all the way back to the first navel-gazing thread (the creative freedom and individual expression one) where I spent several posts gleefully and fruitlessly trying to explain why AEW hiring Doctor Luther was a Very Good Thing. I have the very un-McMahonian trait of placing a high value on the mental, emotional (and physical) well-being of the professional wrestlers whom I enjoy watching. I want them to be happy. I want the locker room to be Camelot.

(it's based on my experiences in the Vancouver territory in the 1980s, where even if we didn't all get along all the time we ALWAYS had each other's backs, and on being invited into the Osaka Pro FAMILY after I moved here in 2009. A lot of my closest friends and favourite people came out of my involvement with Vancouver All Star and Oasaka Pro, and I wish that for every pro wrestler who might desire it. And I abhor the idea that your boss can tell you that you're no longer going on the road with your best friend(s) or significant other(s) and there was a time when AEW *seemed* to be embracing the principles of basic human kindness and friendship and sharing etc etc in that respect. (And I remain baffled that some people *really* don't find value in that and think the only possible way to run a locker room is to hire stars and make the most possible money and be number one at any cost, and to hear the lamentations of the women. HAVE WE LEARNED NOTHING FROM SEASON ONE OF TED LASSO?!?!))

*deep breath*

That. PLUS reduce the WWE stink.

Our Starting Point is Kenny, the Bucks, and Cody. Because that's where it started. (And also, like, SoCal Unsensored and Hangman and The Lucha Bros).

Then we add friends with indie cred and wrestlers from Japan and Mexico who fit the aesthetic and the happy happy joy joy locker room culture. 

So the big one is that we bring in Bryan, who is a genuinely great guy. But we NEVER consider bringing in Punk, who has a reputation of being a self-centred asshole behind the scenes. (I have met Bryan several times, and he 100% lives up to the wildest possible expectations of "being a great guy." I have never met Phil from Chicago but I have friends and friends-of-friends who know him and the general consensus is less than positive. I have a close friend in Japan who *despises* him, who was furious when he was brought into AEW - he feels the same way as I do about locker-room culture and was sure Punk would poison the water in AEW - and he absolutely bathed in bitter schadenfreude when he turned out to be correct). So you never bring him in and you miss out on those AWESOME (in the actual literal sense) crowd reactions in Chicago etc etc... 

But human relations are extremely complex. There must be someone out there who dislikes Bryan Danielson. Hell, there are people who dislike ME. And certainly there are people who really like Punk/Phil. Plenty of them. So I was kind of assuming (not knowing any of the involved parties personally) that if we never hire Punk we maybe also lose out on Joe and FTR. Or maybe they only pop by for one-offs. And it's in many ways a HUGE loss. 

Hopefully there is no need to go over what I feel AEW might have gained in exchange. Addition by subtraction,in locker room terms.

AxB, Porky, John, and John: Did you guys really believe that I don't know Joe is an ROH guy? C'mon man!

Or, to put it more politely: I agree that Samoa Joe does not carry "the WWE stink" on him.

Or, to make a joke out of it: I actually think of Joe as a NOAH guy (since I have only ever seen him (and Low Ki and Scorp...) live in a NOAH ring).

As far as Mox is concerned, my thinking was more that, as likeable and charming as Renee obviously is, I personally am perhaps overconcerned with avoiding WWE elements in how I'd want "my" dream version of AEW, uh, presented. So no Renee. Hence, maybe, no Mox. Also,obviously, a HUGE loss. I very much like the idea, however, that Mox is not and never was a WWE guy because that was Dean Ambrose. Nice!

 

The other thing I have been navel-gazing about is that we have close to zero idea what kind of pressure the network people are putting on our lad Coach Tony. I kind of imagine a room full of coked-out TV idiots with no clue demanding that Sting and Jake the Snake and Zack Clayton and Shaq be featured and by sheer chance occasionally being right. But who knows? Certainly not me.

I often wonder if the network mandated "only one women's match per show!" Certainly I have read the rumours that the network suits demanded that JR be part of the presentation. 

And I don't blame JR at all if he is in fact advocating for AEW to be more old school and more mainstream. We all want what we want. JR has a massive wealth of knowledge and experience about the wrestling business. But: Axl Rose has a massive wealth of knowledge and experience about the music business but I don't think I'd want him in a position of influence with, say, Radiohead.

(To continue clarifying: GNR were great at what they did, but I don't think every band should therefore copy what they did. Radiohead are not necessarily better, but the thing they are good at doing is in certain respects *different* and it might have been a mistake if someone had forced Thom to wear a do-rag and tie scarves to his mic stand, or whatever, because that's what they were used to seeing).

I think AEW has kind of outgrown what I personally would most prefer it to be. Perhaps, in a late-stage capitalist world that's all but inevitable. Damn near everything successful above a certain threshold has to, eventually, turn into a soulless corporate monster. There's still more than enough enjoyment to be had and some interesting developments to look forward to.

Also: The videogame looks like an insane amount of fun. That could be huge. Here Comes the Pain was a big part of my second-to-last real burst of WWE fandom. (The last being the brief peak of the YES! movement, the run from the Rumble through to the RAW after WM XXX).

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Gordlow