Stefanie Sparkleface Posted January 7 Posted January 7 5 hours ago, twiztor said: "Men's Wrestling Just for Manly Men" would certainly attract a demo..... That's not what "wrestling bear" means. 1 2 5
Cliff Hanger Posted January 7 Posted January 7 21 hours ago, tbarrie said: Okay, but I'd argue that the major wrestling promotion don't want to be "men's promotions". They just want to be wrestling promotions. But certainly, if being single-gender is part of your promotion's gimmick, then no, you don't need two divisions. But Bushiroad clearly sees NJPW as the men's company and Stardom as the women's. The IWGP Women's Chsmpionship only started in 2022, they just about never have a non-title women's match, one title change was in the US and the second was in Stardom, and most of the defenses. It feels very much like both the IWGP and Strong women's belts exist solely because they feel like they need a women's match on US shows.
tbarrie Posted January 7 Posted January 7 13 minutes ago, Cliff Hanger said: But Bushiroad clearly sees NJPW as the men's company and Stardom as the women's. The IWGP Women's Chsmpionship only started in 2022, they just about never have a non-title women's match, one title change was in the US and the second was in Stardom, and most of the defenses. It feels very much like both the IWGP and Strong women's belts exist solely because they feel like they need a women's match on US shows. Could be. I don't really follow puro and I don't know what "Bushiroad" is. If it's the parent company of NJPW and Stardom then yeah, it makes perfect sense for one to be a men's promotion and the other a women's promotion. Not functionally all that different from having one promotion with two divisions, really.
Nice Guy Eddie Posted January 7 Posted January 7 2 hours ago, odessasteps said: You make friends with both by giving them coke. You'd make a lot of friends giving out the nose candy. 1
A.M.B. Posted January 8 Author Posted January 8 On 1/6/2025 at 4:14 PM, tbarrie said: Okay, but I'd argue that the major wrestling promotion don't want to be "men's promotions". They just want to be wrestling promotions. This is Japan. There's no precedent for having a mixed promotion with men and women's divisions on equal footing. So much of what makes joshi wrestling better and deeper than the American women's scene is having their own promotions that gives them much better opportunities to develop. The New Japan women's belt is just a gimmick for western viewership. 1 1
J.H. Posted January 8 Posted January 8 Only one Japanese promotion that pushed the women's division equal to the men was FMW, but that was because they had a babyface in the women's division who was as popular as theirtop babyface draw James 1
RazorbladeKiss87 Posted January 8 Posted January 8 12 hours ago, J.H. said: Only one Japanese promotion that pushed the women's division equal to the men was FMW, but that was because they had a babyface in the women's division who was as popular as theirtop babyface draw James What was Kudo's reputation among the newsletters at the time and the internet fans? I got into FMW during the sports entertainment era and went back to all the 90s stuff so I've got no idea what the contemporary viewpoint was.
AxB Posted January 8 Posted January 8 5 hours ago, RazorbladeKiss87 said: What was Kudo's reputation among the newsletters at the time and the internet fans? I got into FMW during the sports entertainment era and went back to all the 90s stuff so I've got no idea what the contemporary viewpoint was. https://www.quebrada.net/columns/old/22.htm Here's a Mike Lorefice post from right before she retired. TLDR: We loved her and thought she was awesome.
Go2Sleep Posted January 8 Posted January 8 (edited) On 12/29/2024 at 6:48 PM, Technico Support said: Related: the person getting pinned so obviously watching the ref count in order to kick out at two and change just kills me. If wrestling was a real competition, it would make sense for someone who's conscious to clock the ref's count to maximize the amount of time to get a deep breath and fire off the muscle chains for proper kick-out technique. Now guys scooting into position to take a top rope move on the other hand... Edited January 8 by Go2Sleep 4
Uncle Coaster Posted January 8 Posted January 8 I seem to recall at one point either Bobby Heenan or Jesse Ventura saying something about a wrestler catching his breath and not trying to kick out when there was no ref to make a count. Feel like Gorilla said something about how it would have been a fifteen count and the Bobby or Jesse responding with that. 1
BloodyChamp Posted January 9 Posted January 9 (edited) You can make anything in wrestling make sense if you want to. Believe me I’m guilty of it too, and occasionally smart enough. You have to be 1 of those 2 things to make it make sense sometimes. Edited January 9 by BloodyChamp 1
twiztor Posted January 9 Posted January 9 pro wrestling operates on a whole other plane of existence. it has its own set of laws regarding logic (all faces are friends regardless of what happened 6 months ago), physics (all motion is positive motion, even when that backflip is inverse to the direction needed), time (climbing a ladder takes 5x longer than anything), and who knows what else. And don't get me started on communication woes.... 3
supremebve Posted January 9 Posted January 9 13 hours ago, BloodyChamp said: You can make anything in wrestling make sense if you want to. Believe me I’m guilty of it too, and occasionally smart enough. You have to be 1 of those 2 things to make it make sense sometimes. Yeah, we all bought into the bullshit as soon as we saw an Irish whip and though, yeah I'll buy into that. Every time someone says that something is business exposing, I always think, why is this the line? If you've watched years and years of wrestling and one goofy move makes you say, "it breaks the immersion." I'm here to tell you that you are the problem not that wrestler, that move, that angle, or that storyline. 1
Godfrey Posted January 9 Posted January 9 1 hour ago, supremebve said: Yeah, we all bought into the bullshit as soon as we saw an Irish whip and though, yeah I'll buy into that. Every time someone says that something is business exposing, I always think, why is this the line? If you've watched years and years of wrestling and one goofy move makes you say, "it breaks the immersion." I'm here to tell you that you are the problem not that wrestler, that move, that angle, or that storyline. It depends on the move and how much that promotion maintains a consistent internal reality for storytelling purposes. It may be a reality in which Irish whips and slams are viable offense but a 450 splash out of nowhere throws everything off. Don't blame the viewer for lazy writing 1
SirSmUgly Posted January 9 Posted January 9 1 hour ago, supremebve said: Yeah, we all bought into the bullshit as soon as we saw an Irish whip and though, yeah I'll buy into that. Every time someone says that something is business exposing, I always think, why is this the line? If you've watched years and years of wrestling and one goofy move makes you say, "it breaks the immersion." I'm here to tell you that you are the problem not that wrestler, that move, that angle, or that storyline. I like this sort of spicy take! I disagree entirely, though. In the years of wrestling that I watched, Irish whips were a commonly used move that, in the context and within the fabric of American pro wrestling, was widely accepted as a legitimate move. The structure of U.S. pro wrestling was that no matter the house style or company, Irish whips were a thing. When you're consuming WWF and WCW and even AWA on ESPN as a kid and those shows tell you, consistently, The narrative structure of our matches includes Irish whips, so just accept it and don't think too much about the mechanics, you accept it as part of your suspension of disbelief quite easily. If a wrestler is doing a move that is not within that fabric of widely-established narrative quirks about pro wrestling, then no, it's a problem with the wrestler or move. Of course, things change and cultures are different, so something that I find "business exposing," other fans through consistently experiencing them as part of the narrative will accept them. For example, I suspect my dislike of lucha trios tags is because I didn't grow up with lucha and therefore will never accept the "everyone dives on everyone else one-by-one spot," but if I grew up in Nuevo Laredo or Guadalajara watching lucha as a kid, I absolutely would. That, I think, is where it's accurately a problem with me and not with the move. But if it's not some established cultural or narrative norm in pro wrestling? Yeah, a wrestler or a booker had better think clearly about whether or not it works. I'm watching Vince Russo try to do shoot-bang shit where one match on the card is worked and the commentators are talking about who booked the match and who is supposed to go over and not go over while treating the rest of the card as a legit competition. That is goofy booking that breaks the immersion, and it's absolutely not me that is the problem here. 1
BloodyChamp Posted January 9 Posted January 9 Climbing the ladder slowly while straining or being confused is 1 that I’ve made make sense. Don’t ask me why lol! 1
supremebve Posted January 9 Posted January 9 7 minutes ago, SirSmUgly said: I like this sort of spicy take! I disagree entirely, though. In the years of wrestling that I watched, Irish whips were a commonly used move that, in the context and within the fabric of American pro wrestling, was widely accepted as a legitimate move. The structure of U.S. pro wrestling was that no matter the house style or company, Irish whips were a thing. When you're consuming WWF and WCW and even AWA on ESPN as a kid and those shows tell you, consistently, The narrative structure of our matches includes Irish whips, so just accept it and don't think too much about the mechanics, you accept it as part of your suspension of disbelief quite easily. If a wrestler is doing a move that is not within that fabric of widely-established narrative quirks about pro wrestling, then no, it's a problem with the wrestler or move. Of course, things change and cultures are different, so something that I find "business exposing," other fans through consistently experiencing them as part of the narrative will accept them. For example, I suspect my dislike of lucha trios tags is because I didn't grow up with lucha and therefore will never accept the "everyone dives on everyone else one-by-one spot," but if I grew up in Nuevo Laredo or Guadalajara watching lucha as a kid, I absolutely would. That, I think, is where it's accurately a problem with me and not with the move. But if it's not some established cultural or narrative norm in pro wrestling? Yeah, a wrestler or a booker had better think clearly about whether or not it works. I'm watching Vince Russo try to do shoot-bang shit where one match on the card is worked and the commentators are talking about who booked the match and who is supposed to go over and not go over while treating the rest of the card as a legit competition. That is goofy booking that breaks the immersion, and it's absolutely not me that is the problem here. Here's the thing. In order for anything to become the fabric of wrestling, someone has to do that goofy shit enough that people accept it. In order for the artform to move forward, someone has to do some shit that no one has done before and make it work. Do you guys remember how goofy the People's Elbow was? The Rock just kept doing it until no one gave a fuck any more. Your points about Lucha and especially Russo are 100% valid. There are plenty of things that you may not like for 100000000 different reasons. That is perfectly OK with me. The issue I have is when someone does some shit they've never seen before and act like the business is being exposed as fake like all the other shit isn't just as goofy out of context. The most infuriating thing about the, "you know it's fake, right?" comments are the fact that there is a such thing as "real" wrestling that is pretty common across high school and college throughout the country and no one watches it. We all know it's fake, and quite frankly that's the only reason we're watching it. Wrestling is fantasy and one thing being a little bit more fantastical is rarely a bad thing. With that said, every time someone does a version of the Downward Spiral/Sister Abigail/Complete Shot/etc., as a finisher while using a DDT as a mid-match transitional move I sit there looking at the TV like one of those dogs in the Sarah McLachlan commercial. 1
BobbyWhioux Posted January 9 Posted January 9 Brought the Xmas lights down the other day and best believe I am slow as fuck anytime I climbed the ladder too, because I know falling off is going to hurt like hell for a long time. And I’m only going halfway up compared to these guys. I got no problem with that one at all 2
SirSmUgly Posted January 9 Posted January 9 22 minutes ago, supremebve said: Here's the thing. In order for anything to become the fabric of wrestling, someone has to do that goofy shit enough that people accept it. In order for the artform to move forward, someone has to do some shit that no one has done before and make it work. Do you guys remember how goofy the People's Elbow was? The Rock just kept doing it until no one gave a fuck any more. This is true, but the People's Elbow is not the best example, IMO. He started out doing it to indifference and silence in front of live crowds, and it got over as he got more over. The most complaining about it that I remember from the too-online fans at the time was when he'd use it as a finisher, to which a chorus of responses would point out Hogan using a legdrop as a finish and no one batting an eye. I don't think there was ever sustained pushback against the People's Elbow in the first place. But I do agree that today's baffling move can be tomorrow's perfectly accepted wrestling trope. Pro wrestling evolves as everything else does. Quote Your points about Lucha and especially Russo are 100% valid. There are plenty of things that you may not like for 100000000 different reasons. That is perfectly OK with me. The issue I have is when someone does some shit they've never seen before and act like the business is being exposed as fake like all the other shit isn't just as goofy out of context. I think it's not the idea that the business is being exposed as fake - well, except for maybe actual pro wrestlers or old timers that still think kayfabe as it was in the 1970s is a viable thing anymore. It's that there are established narrative tropes for pro wrestling, and when you puncture those tropes, you risk causing a viewer to stop suspending his disbelief. I believe that this is what most fans mean when they talk about "exposing the business." Quote The most infuriating thing about the, "you know it's fake, right?" comments are the fact that there is a such thing as "real" wrestling that is pretty common across high school and college throughout the country and no one watches it. We all know it's fake, and quite frankly that's the only reason we're watching it. Wrestling is fantasy and one thing being a little bit more fantastical is rarely a bad thing. Again, something being fantastical is fine, but it has to be part of the established tropes for the company. There is a reason that the Undertaker teleporting from ring to stage and back is fine with me, but Sting or Vampiro doing it in WCW makes me roll my eyes. The former fits the exaggeratedly-fantastic way in which WWF gimmicks often work, while WCW is traditionally more grounded in how it presents its gimmicks and therefore being too fantastic breaks immersion in that company. Quote With that said, every time someone does a version of the Downward Spiral/Sister Abigail/Complete Shot/etc., as a finisher while using a DDT as a mid-match transitional move I sit there looking at the TV like one of those dogs in the Sarah McLachlan commercial. IN THE ARRRRRRRMS OFFFFFFFF AN ANGEL 3
BobbyWhioux Posted January 9 Posted January 9 IN FACT, between how easy it is to mess up the locking mechanism of a ladder and thus make it way easier to fall off a ladder, and how much worse it is fall off a ladder when you land on a wrestling canvas, and/or bits of other ladders and such tools of danger escalation that have been added to ladder matches, basically just how obvious and palpable it is for me to feel all the serious Rest Of Your Life ways you can be injured fucking around with ladders, I'm just gonna come right out and say my latest wrestling hot take is Fuck Ladder Matches I Don't Ever Care To Watch One Again They're Not Worth It For The Boys/Girls To Be Doing Them. 6
supremebve Posted January 9 Posted January 9 6 minutes ago, SirSmUgly said: Again, something being fantastical is fine, but it has to be part of the established tropes for the company. There is a reason that the Undertaker teleporting from ring to stage and back is fine with me, but Sting or Vampiro doing it in WCW makes me roll my eyes. The former fits the exaggeratedly-fantastic way in which WWF gimmicks often work, while WCW is traditionally more grounded in how it presents its gimmicks and therefore being too fantastic breaks immersion in that company. This is a good example of what I mean. Everything that is business exposing is perfectly fine once you decide it's OK. It is all based on whether they do it often enough to make you accept it. My point is that everything is that all of this shit is nonsense and you can try to nitpick what is more nonsensical than what, but it's all bullshit. You are basically saying this is my type of bullshit, but that's not. That's fine, but it's much more about you and your taste in bullshit than them and their bullshit, because you 100% knew to expect bullshit when you tuned in. You cannot expose a business that everyone understands is bullshit.
The Comedian Posted January 9 Posted January 9 23 minutes ago, BobbyWhioux said: IN FACT, between how easy it is to mess up the locking mechanism of a ladder and thus make it way easier to fall off a ladder, and how much worse it is fall off a ladder when you land on a wrestling canvas, and/or bits of other ladders and such tools of danger escalation that have been added to ladder matches, basically just how obvious and palpable it is for me to feel all the serious Rest Of Your Life ways you can be injured fucking around with ladders, I'm just gonna come right out and say my latest wrestling hot take is Fuck Ladder Matches I Don't Ever Care To Watch One Again They're Not Worth It For The Boys/Girls To Be Doing Them. Not a bad take at all. I for one would be all for wrestling never using shoot glass or ungimmicked barbed wire ever again. The fact that no one has nicked their carotid and bled out in a ring so far in all the uses of said items is a minor miracle... 1 1
zendragon Posted January 9 Posted January 9 Even if it at times look ridiculous, I understand the "selling the exhaustion of the match" angle of climbing slowly. Now I've never had an issue with the People's Elbow. It was never his finisher (occasionally he might hit it after The Rock Bottom) it was started as an over the top showboating move when he was a heel. It was always meant to be ridiculous, like calling himself The People's Champion (which got retconned into him actually kinda being The People's Champ as a face)
SirSmUgly Posted January 9 Posted January 9 (edited) 23 minutes ago, supremebve said: This is a good example of what I mean. Everything that is business exposing is perfectly fine once you decide it's OK. It is all based on whether they do it often enough to make you accept it. My point is that everything is that all of this shit is nonsense and you can try to nitpick what is more nonsensical than what, but it's all bullshit. You are basically saying this is my type of bullshit, but that's not. That's fine, but it's much more about you and your taste in bullshit than them and their bullshit, because you 100% knew to expect bullshit when you tuned in. You cannot expose a business that everyone understands is bullshit. No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that teleportation is my type of bullshit in one company, but it isn't my type of bullshit in another company because of the narrative tropes that those companies themselves have established. This is what you don't seem to be getting in my point here. The idea that "this thing is bullshit" doesn't come out of nothing or of only personal dislike. It comes from something not fitting the established narrative tropes of the company or cultural style. EDIT: Actually, I was too absolute. My dislike of AEW's house style, for one example, or of the style of AAA trios tags for another, is certainly only out of personal dislike; it includes a bunch of narrative tropes that I simply don't enjoy, but those tropes are clearly established by AEW or AAA itself. So you're right that it can be simple dislike sometimes, but certainly not all the time. Edited January 9 by SirSmUgly 2
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