Matt D Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 I'm putting all my hope into Kyle Fletcher and Daniel Garcia right now. Maybe I'm a fool. 2
supremebve Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 3 minutes ago, J.H. said: Hell there are guys I wait for their stoopging. Terry Funk, Arnold Anderson and even Hansen. Hansen would stooge with the wobbly legs and blindly throwing lunches and then his frustration would lead to blindly thrown lariat that hits and pops that Japanese crowd! But Hansen made the crowd EARN that moment and it paid off for Hansen and the crowd he was doing it for. I do not get those vibes from guys in AEW. The matches don't have those "earned moments", those little things that end in key moments. Of course I might be full of shit and just a cranky old man/jaded wrestling fan James No, I agree. I'm going to not only agree, but I'm going to tell you the human tipping point that started the give you everything you want without making you wait. It's Kurt Angle. Before Kurt Angle almost everyone built up to the biggest spots, but Kurt gave you everything you wanted exactly when you wanted and it worked because he was the only one doing that. Now, everyone's doing that and it doesn't seem like this elite amateur wrestling machine will take advantage of every mistake and hit you with a crazy suplex. Now, everybody is now an elite wrestling machine who might hit you with a crazy suplex and that kind of sucks. 3 1
twiztor Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 (edited) i realized the other night, while watching Kurt Angle in mid 2000s TNA of all things, that current day AEW doesn't have any kind of shooter/grappler/stretcher at all right now. i'll happily take that back if i'm overlooking someone, but lately i've been getting real "sameness" vibes from the roster. edited to add: posted at the same time as @supremebve, but it's funny that we both mentioned Angle in different contexts. Edited December 16, 2024 by twiztor 2
supremebve Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 5 minutes ago, twiztor said: i realized the other night, while watching Kurt Angle in mid 2000s TNA of all things, that current day AEW doesn't have any kind of shooter/grappler/stretcher at all right now. i'll happily take that back if i'm overlooking someone, but lately i've been getting real "sameness" vibes from the roster. This is a much more concise version of what I was trying to say. Nobody is shooter/grappler/stretcher, because everyone is a superhero wrestles like they are some sort of master technician without the Kurt Angle Olympic pedigree. Everyone can counter every move into one of their biggest moves without any build. It isn't even a struggle, they can do it instantly and the only thing that can stop it is if their opponent can counter their counter with their own instant counter into one of their big moves. 5
RazorbladeKiss87 Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 4 hours ago, Ramo2653 said: I know it's NXT but Andre Chase is great at it as well. In a perfect world, Chase would just stay down there and you'd cycle new guys in as "students" and graduate them when called up to the main roster (and it allows you to reset those guys since you can't do college student wrestler with no school affiliation as a gimmick) but "pro wrestling Mr. Belding/Mr. Feeney" probably isn't a viable gimmick. One hundred percent backed. I was pretty bummed they broke up Chase U (for now. Every good sitcom/teen drama has a reunion special) because it's an easy gimmick to write, I think. Plus, the world needs some joy and fun.
zendragon Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 Watching these SNME matches on the Vault, people really don't talk about Jimmy Hart's place in the pantheon of wrestling managers enough 7
supremebve Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 21 minutes ago, zendragon said: Watching these SNME matches on the Vault, people really don't talk about Jimmy Hart's place in the pantheon of wrestling managers enough If there was a manager hall of fame, he'd definitely be in it. With that said, he's kind of my bottom level hall of fame manager. If I had a vote, I'd ask myself, "is this person better than Jimmy Hart?" If yes, they get my vote, if not, they probably don't. He was great, but I'd take Bobby Heenan, Paul Heyman, The Sensational Sherri over him pretty easily because they could get a program over by themselves. Jimmy Hart could add some much needed color to a program, but his charges had to carry more of their own weight. With that said, I am not all that familiar with his Memphis stuff, so I admit I haven't seen what is considered his best stuff. 6
Stefanie Sparkleface Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 1 hour ago, supremebve said: This is a much more concise version of what I was trying to say. Nobody is shooter/grappler/stretcher, because everyone is a superhero wrestles like they are some sort of master technician without the Kurt Angle Olympic pedigree. Everyone can counter every move into one of their biggest moves without any build. It isn't even a struggle, they can do it instantly and the only thing that can stop it is if their opponent can counter their counter with their own instant counter into one of their big moves. If everyone is great and amazing, then no one is, because you have to be able to see there are levels to things in order to appreciate what those levels are. If that doesn't happen, then you have a slop of formless, shapeless nothing that you'll forget about minutes after you see it because nothing matters. 4
Sublime Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 2 hours ago, supremebve said: No, I agree. I'm going to not only agree, but I'm going to tell you the human tipping point that started the give you everything you want without making you wait. It's Kurt Angle. Before Kurt Angle almost everyone built up to the biggest spots, but Kurt gave you everything you wanted exactly when you wanted and it worked because he was the only one doing that. Now, everyone's doing that and it doesn't seem like this elite amateur wrestling machine will take advantage of every mistake and hit you with a crazy suplex. Now, everybody is now an elite wrestling machine who might hit you with a crazy suplex and that kind of sucks. Angle is one piece of the puzzle that also includes Shawn Michaels, Triple H and The Undertaker (at least his Mania matches) they all feed into the forced epic formula that has come to be as well. WWE became too reliant on trying to force Steamboat/Savage mania matches onto ppvs (especially mania but eventually pretty much all of them) and those four drove it, guys like Cena and Edge were involved too 1
Curt McGirt Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 3 hours ago, J.H. said: blindly throwing lunches Now I'm imagining Hansen throwing paper bags with sandwiches in them at his opponent, and Joe Higuchi threatening him with getting DQed 1
supremebve Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 1 hour ago, Sublime said: Angle is one piece of the puzzle that also includes Shawn Michaels, Triple H and The Undertaker (at least his Mania matches) they all feed into the forced epic formula that has come to be as well. WWE became too reliant on trying to force Steamboat/Savage mania matches onto ppvs (especially mania but eventually pretty much all of them) and those four drove it, guys like Cena and Edge were involved too I feel like the Shawn Michaels, HHH, Undertaker nonsense is a different branch on this tree. Kurt Angle's branch is where every match is worked like the Best of the Super Juniors finals. Everything is fast-paced, selling is next to non-existent, and it works better as an alternative to the main event style. The Shawn Michaels/HHH branch is where everything is worked like the finals of the G1 where by the end the workers are barely able to stand from exhaustion without the attrition that comes with working a long ass tournament. So they're selling everything like they've been wrestling every night for a month straight against a who's who of the business when they just started wrestling 20 minutes ago. They're working the match and when it gets about halfway through they say, "add drama here," without actually building anything to make that drama feel earned. There is no real feeling out process, it's just the same match they would have worked on Raw except they kick out of the finish and start acting like they're shocked that the match they laid out didn't end after the first nearfall. 7
Curt McGirt Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 (edited) So what is the Kenny Omega/Will Ospreay branch on this tree? Its exclusive own, with no comparison? Maybe BOSJ x All Japan Four Pillars, probably. Edited December 17, 2024 by Curt McGirt
Sublime Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 Kenny and Will are new growth that grew above those two branches. They both took a lot from both branches added some more stuff. Also I’d rather watch any of Kenny’s NjPW epics over any of Angle, Shawn, Trips, or tamer did post 2001-2ish (or just ever in Kurt’s case) 3
supremebve Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 8 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said: So what is the Kenny Omega/Will Ospreay branch on this tree? Its exclusive own, with no comparison? Maybe BOSJ x All Japan Four Pillars, probably. It's the same issue with movie sequels where someone has a great idea, executes it flawlessly, and makes a bunch of money. Then instead of starting over from the beginning and trying to come up with a great idea, they just piggyback on the last great idea and try to build on top of it. It rarely works, because the subsequent sequels are never actually built on the original idea, they're built on the previous final product which was never really meant to be foundational. So we get a bastardized version of the original that never really feels right. Kenny Omega and Will Osprey aren't wrong for idolizing the NJPW Jrs. and the AJPW Heavyweights. I fell in love with those matches too. The difference is that all of those matches were built from years and years of storytelling that Omega and Osprey skipped. They didn't really have a choice, because no one has the chance to build these things over the years anymore. The thing about NJPW Jrs. of the 90s and the All Japan Four Pillars were how consistent the cast of characters were. Liger being Liger the NJPW Jrs always had a main character and everything was built around him. He is one of the best workers of all time, so the style was built around him and his ability to work with Ohtani, El Samurai, Koji Kanemoto, and everyone else. In All Japan, it was booked like DragonBall Z where every episode was great, but every episode left you hanging waiting for the actual conclusion of the story. Kawada had chased Misawa for years and years and the matches were good enough that people stuck around. Omega and Osprey didn't really have the luxury to tell that kind of long-term story, so they had to pack all that background into the year or two they were at the top of the card in New Japan and it felt forced. 2
AxB Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 Ospreay's whole thing is he loves really long dodge exchanges, where it's like the third or fourth PPV match between RVD and Jerry Lynn. But he almost never has a match like the first RVD vs Lynn match, where there are no dodges because nobody knows what strikes are coming yet... now on one level it's frustrating because he's trying to write the final chapter of the book without doing the opening chapter first. But on another level, those matches were recorded on video and distributed. There's a not zero chance his opponent watched them, and knows to duck the rebound enzuigiri because they saw his last three big match opponents also duck it.
The Natural Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 11 hours ago, zendragon said: Watching these SNME matches on the Vault, people really don't talk about Jimmy Hart's place in the pantheon of wrestling managers enough 10 hours ago, supremebve said: If there was a manager hall of fame, he'd definitely be in it. With that said, he's kind of my bottom level hall of fame manager. If I had a vote, I'd ask myself, "is this person better than Jimmy Hart?" If yes, they get my vote, if not, they probably don't. He was great, but I'd take Bobby Heenan, Paul Heyman, The Sensational Sherri over him pretty easily because they could get a program over by themselves. Jimmy Hart could add some much needed color to a program, but his charges had to carry more of their own weight. With that said, I am not all that familiar with his Memphis stuff, so I admit I haven't seen what is considered his best stuff. Jimmy Hart just misses out on my Mount Rushmore Managers, he's 5th behind: 4. Sensational Sherri. 3. Jim Cornette. 2. Paul Heyman. 1. Bobby Heenan. 1
twiztor Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 with all this talk about managers, does anyone have recommendations for performances by the Grand Wizard? he's always mentioned by old timers, but what little i've seen has been fairly standard stuff. Just wondering if i've missed something. also, shout out to "Sinister Minister" James Mitchell/Vandenburg. One of the few managers to come up during the MNW, and i feel he always gets overlooked. 4
Mister TV Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 47 minutes ago, twiztor said: with all this talk about managers, does anyone have recommendations for performances by the Grand Wizard? he's always mentioned by old timers, but what little i've seen has been fairly standard stuff. Just wondering if i've missed something. also, shout out to "Sinister Minister" James Mitchell/Vandenburg. One of the few managers to come up during the MNW, and i feel he always gets overlooked. The Grand Wizard was all about the local house show promo, he only was at ringside at tv tapings and he didn't do much since they were squash matches, he only showed up for ring introductions at MSG, and was never at any other house shows. Of the Three Wise Men of the East, I'd put him 3rd, Albano was by far the best, even as a kid I found Blassie hysterical and he was good at being a dick during matches, Wiz had a good look and decent promos but was totally overshadowed when paired with good promo guys. I always found Mitchell/Vandenburg corny, I think his issue with being overlooked is due to traditional managers being out of style during the MNW's.. 1 1
BobbyWhioux Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 15 hours ago, Curt McGirt said: Now I'm imagining Hansen throwing paper bags with sandwiches in them at his opponent, and Joe Higuchi threatening him with getting DQed Don Muraco countering his attack by eating it. As for personal list of best managers in my era of watching, it's Heenan, Cornette, Jimmy Hart, but I have no real issue with anyone who would have Heenan-Hart-Cornette. Real close and it's down to slight stylistic differences/preferences. The megaphone is perhaps the most brilliantly annoying prop of all time. 2
BobbyWhioux Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 21 hours ago, J.H. said: But there are things you expect a wrestler to do, the trick is making the crowd anticipate it so when it happens the pop for it "earned". The best example I can think of is Rick Rude. You know he's gonna get atomic dropped and do the Rick Rude Atomic Drop sell. But Rude never just did that sell to start, he made the crowd wait for it so the babyface could earn that crazy pop. Damn, Rude was kind of a genius in switching from the middle portion of a match to the start of a finishing segment. Christ, I miss Rick Rude James [Ric Flair climbing the turnbuckle] Or when Rick Rude was so hurt from earlier atomic drops he'd seize up and not be able to tauntingly hip-swivel before the Rude Awakening. Speaking of which, the Rude Awakening is the perfect [heel] finisher. Death Spot once successfully executed, but with a long windup to build dread and/or hope for the babyface to counter, or for the heel to be overconfident and get caught stunting. I'm forever disappointed that nobody has stolen/borrowed/revived The Rude Awakening as a finisher all these years later. 2
Curt McGirt Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 (edited) If you haven't seen Mitchell talking on the Forever Hardcore documentary, he's a hoot. There's an extra where he details his entire drinking schedule for a day's work; he talks about blowing his finger off and asking for Mikey to bring him some booze in a Burger King cup at the hospital; he says him and Sandman used to stay up all night playing trivia and has a hilarious Sandman imitation. He's definitely the guy to either fake or really snort coke on camera at an NWA PPV. Here's a Rude Awakening comp. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgvuS88FPD4&ab_channel=Jurgen'swrest-comp Milking that much out of a simple neckbreaker must apply him for wrestling godhood no matter what else. EDIT: It is weird how sometimes it's the full drop and sometimes he just does a reverse cutter. That seems to be mostly for upper card guys and probably on purpose. (Except Jimmy Snuka, who gets the full one anyway haha) Or you can look at it as being more psychologically sound that he doesn't want to land on his ass after all those Atomic Drops! *taps head* Edited December 17, 2024 by Curt McGirt 2 1
clintthecrippler Posted December 18, 2024 Posted December 18, 2024 On 12/17/2024 at 6:32 AM, twiztor said: with all this talk about managers, does anyone have recommendations for performances by the Grand Wizard? he's always mentioned by old timers, but what little i've seen has been fairly standard stuff. Just wondering if i've missed something. Grand Wizard will always get love from me just for the time that he responded to Vince remarking about "boos from the fans" with pointing out that what was being heard was "BOOZE IN the fans". But yeah, like said earlier, Wizard really shone through in local house show promos, but also some little things like slowly adding military medals to his jacket when he managed Sgt Slaughter. 2 1 3
AxB Posted December 18, 2024 Posted December 18, 2024 There's a not-zero chance that Grand Wizard's best stuff happened when he was still managing The Sheikh in Detroit, and his WWF run was his equivalent of Shinsuke Nakamura or Prince Devitt's WWE runs. A "No more starving artist, time to be well fed and uncreative" run. 5
Technico Support Posted December 19, 2024 Posted December 19, 2024 Grand Wizard will always get love for the ultimate troll job of being a gay Jewish man who adopted a KKK rank as his ring name. 5 1 1
Curt McGirt Posted December 19, 2024 Posted December 19, 2024 Oh man, somehow I never thought about that, and it's BRILLIANT. I've seen a little Eddie Creachman doing work for Sheik too and he was pretty good. Nice rap he had. 1
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