FourPostMassacre Posted November 14, 2024 Posted November 14, 2024 20 hours ago, odessasteps said: I maintain that Dave may have done as much damage to the business as promoter Vince (not human being Vince). Guy who killed the territories Vince? Trying to think of one thing close to that or the dozen or so other things Vince has done that comes close to the microcosm of “damage” Dave has done to the business. 3
The Comedian Posted November 14, 2024 Posted November 14, 2024 I tend to focus on Scott Keith because, to me, he was the antithesis of the DVDVR mindset. Like, he was exactly the guy who would tell you that Mark Henry is a shitty worker because he never goes off the top rope and doesn't throw his opponents around carelessly with a bunch of kewl power moves... 1
RazorbladeKiss87 Posted November 14, 2024 Posted November 14, 2024 1 minute ago, The Comedian said: I tend to focus on Scott Keith because, to me, he was the antithesis of the DVDVR mindset. Like, he was exactly the guy who would tell you that Mark Henry is a shitty worker because he never goes off the top rope and doesn't throw his opponents around carelessly with a bunch of kewl power moves... For me, Keith was one of the few wrestling related things that would get past the school net cop system so I spent many study halls just absorbing his reviews.
The Comedian Posted November 14, 2024 Posted November 14, 2024 Oh I read all of Keith's stuff. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the guy, I just often didn't agree with his talent assessments. I read all those guys, CRZ, Hyatte, Sczulcewski...As someone just said up there a few posts ago, before YouTube the Internet was primarily a reading medium, and I read all I could find about wrestling... 5
Shartnado Posted November 15, 2024 Posted November 15, 2024 (edited) 33 minutes ago, The Comedian said: Oh I read all of Keith's stuff. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the guy, I just often didn't agree with his talent assessments. I read all those guys, CRZ, Hyatte, Sczulcewski...As someone just said up there a few posts ago, before YouTube the Internet was primarily a reading medium, and I read all I could find about wrestling... Keith and Hyatte provided me so much material to go through that they helped me to ruin my academic career back in the late 90's early 00's, since I spent my time reading about wrestling, not going to class. It worked out wonderfully, so I have very few regrets about that. Not NO regrets, but very few. Edited November 15, 2024 by Shartnado needs more space 6
J.H. Posted November 15, 2024 Posted November 15, 2024 (edited) Scott Keith was a guy who would hate on guys just to hate on them. Dusty Rhodes was a preferred target of his. I would read Keith's reviews and then come here hoping DEAN~! had posted something to restore my faith in humanity James Edited November 16, 2024 by J.H. 4
odessasteps Posted November 15, 2024 Posted November 15, 2024 The only people from that era I really read (apart from dvdvr) were Scaia, Samuda, CRZ and Herb Kunze. And I ended up writing for Rick and Mike (along with CRZ) at Wrestline/ Wrestlemaniacs. A lot of those others mentioned struck me as obnoxious attention seekers. 4
Technico Support Posted November 15, 2024 Posted November 15, 2024 (edited) 22 hours ago, The Comedian said: Personally, I'd put a lot more weight on the more accessible (ie. free to read) writings of Scott Keith in the late 90's/early 00's. In particular, he was pretty big on notions like "all big guys not named Vader are mediocre workers at best" or "coming out of Calgary = workrate genius"... 21 hours ago, AxB said: Yeah, Meltzer's stuff was always "Pay to read", whilst those early 2000s "Newz + Opinionz" Smarks were always far more accessible, at a time when Social Media didn't exist yet, video streaming didn't exist yet, Podcasts barely existed (and were still called Internet Radio Shows), there was a dearth of actual wrestling content available online, but with an audience that was very hungry for it. Yeah, there's definitely something to this. Keith and all the guys who essentially just aped Meltzer's opinions, but doing it for free and turning up the obnoxiousness. Edited November 15, 2024 by Technico Support 2
Octopus Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 Kawada losing to Misawa in 6/3/94 is ok because it adds so much to the 6/9/95 tag. 3
stuntmanc Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 (edited) My wrestling hot take probably won't come as a surprise, but I don't think CM Punk has ever been in the top 5 workers of any promotion he's ever been in and always has been a lesser talent with the biggest mouth. Another hot take is that Undertaker has been overrated his entire career and was benefitted by one of the greatest gimmicks ever. I don't discount his talent in keeping it going, but he will never be on a GOAT list for me personally. Edited November 17, 2024 by StuntmanCrowley 3
twiztor Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 54 minutes ago, StuntmanCrowley said: My wrestling hot take probably won't come as a surprise, but I don't think CM Punk has ever been in the top 5 workers of any promotion he's ever been in and always has been a lesser talent with the biggest mouth. Another hot take is that Undertaker has been overrated his entire career and was benefitted by one of the greatest gimmicks ever. I don't discount his talent in keeping it going, but he will never be on a GOAT list for me personally. if these are hot takes, i'm right there with you. i do feel like the Undertaker was legitimately good around 2005ish, but for his entire 2000 era run as the BikerTaker, he was awful. And during the 2001 Invasion angle, he was the absolute worst. He wouldn't sell for anybody and didn't take bumps- it was terrible. But for his first 10 years as the Taker, his aura definitely did most of the heavy lifting. 2
stuntmanc Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 6 hours ago, twiztor said: if these are hot takes, i'm right there with you. i do feel like the Undertaker was legitimately good around 2005ish, but for his entire 2000 era run as the BikerTaker, he was awful. And during the 2001 Invasion angle, he was the absolute worst. He wouldn't sell for anybody and didn't take bumps- it was terrible. But for his first 10 years as the Taker, his aura definitely did most of the heavy lifting. You mentioning the invasion, the treatment of DDP in that feud, how one sided it was and how it was nothing more, in my eyes, a vehicle to make DDP(WCW) look foolish was one of the first things that truly started me to sour on Taker. Is there anything from 05 you'd recommend? Im biased but wouldnt mind revisiting stuff with a fresh mind. 2
SirSmUgly Posted November 17, 2024 Posted November 17, 2024 (edited) The Undertaker's best in-ring year is 1997. Great character, but not a great worker, even in the years that people think he was good. Let me drop a couple Undertaker-focused hot takes besides 1997 being his best in-ring year: The best WM HHH match is the first one The last WM match Undertaker had that I think was better than "solid" was the one against Randy Orton at WM 21. The Triple Threat Match against Angle and the Rock is the best match he had in the aughts (and probably the second best one Angle had after the Austin match). The Undertaker has never had a match better than "fine" with Brock Lesnar (as much as I enjoyed the surprise of seeing Lesnar end the streak live at the time). Edited November 17, 2024 by SirSmUgly 1
twiztor Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 3 hours ago, StuntmanCrowley said: Is there anything from 05 you'd recommend? Im biased but wouldnt mind revisiting stuff with a fresh mind. i haven't rewatched any of that stuff since it happened, so it may not be as great as i remember and/or may not hold up, but i remember really liking his matches with Kurt Angle. His feud with Randy Orton was also enjoyable, although i don't remember the matches as well. that's all i got.
Hamhock Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 19 hours ago, SirSmUgly said: Let me drop a couple Undertaker-focused hot takes besides 1997 being his best in-ring year: The best WM HHH match is the first one Agreed - and I really like the flash pin ending versus the interminable slog of the other two matches. 1
AxB Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 Mick Foley was the WWF's best wrestler in the Attitude Era. Because every main eventer they had post-Austin, they didn't get over until Foley put them over. Undertaker was stagnating to hell feuding with himself before Foley showed him it was actually possible to have good matches. Triple H, he was elevated from rookie to midcarder thanks to a Foley feud, elevated to IC title level by a subsequent Foley feud, and then elevated to Main Event/ World Champion level by another subsequent Foley feud. And really struggled throughout his career to have a good match with anyone who isn't Mick Foley. 8 3
Zakk_Sabbath Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 1 hour ago, AxB said: Mick Foley was the WWF's best wrestler in the Attitude Era. Because every main eventer they had post-Austin, they didn't get over until Foley put them over. Undertaker was stagnating to hell feuding with himself before Foley showed him it was actually possible to have good matches. Triple H, he was elevated from rookie to midcarder thanks to a Foley feud, elevated to IC title level by a subsequent Foley feud, and then elevated to Main Event/ World Champion level by another subsequent Foley feud. And really struggled throughout his career to have a good match with anyone who isn't Mick Foley. Huge agree with this. I haven't seen a better HHH or Randy Orton match to this day. I think his contributions there get minimized for a lot of different reasons - could be that the man in charge is tired of reading stuff like I just wrote, but my gut is that it's also got to do with some of the crazy shit he did back then on their TV (and how it might be looked at today through the lens of concussion awareness and things like that).
tbarrie Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 21 hours ago, SirSmUgly said: Let me drop a couple Undertaker-focused hot takes besides 1997 being his best in-ring year: The best WM HHH match is the first one I don't think that's a controversial opinion. I mean, their second match was comically awful. Their third was fun and all but kind of an overblown "epic".
SirSmUgly Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 37 minutes ago, tbarrie said: I don't think that's a controversial opinion. I mean, their second match was comically awful. Their third was fun and all but kind of an overblown "epic". Really? I was always under the impression that it would be considered a semi-fringe opinion among the general fandom. People seem to adore the self-conscious epic Streak matches from the late aughts/early tens, generally, though I pretty much don't like any of those matches. 1
tbarrie Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 1 hour ago, SirSmUgly said: Really? I was always under the impression that it would be considered a semi-fringe opinion among the general fandom. Well, I guess I really meant it wasn't a controversial opinion with me. (The only opinion that matters, after all.:)) Maybe the hoi polloi liked the second Triple H-Undertaker 'Mania match. I don't pay much attention to the general fandom. But I will say if you can't successfully follow a commentator vs commentator match, you're not doing well out there. 1
Technico Support Posted November 19, 2024 Posted November 19, 2024 2 hours ago, SirSmUgly said: Really? I was always under the impression that it would be considered a semi-fringe opinion among the general fandom. People seem to adore the self-conscious epic Streak matches from the late aughts/early tens, generally, though I pretty much don't like any of those matches. I don’t know about best or worst but the most hilarious streak match was the one where he was like FUCK YOU I’M NOT TEAMING WITH NATHAN JONES and squashed Show and Albert by himself in the opener. Nathan Jones won in the end. He starred in Fury Road while Taker does questionable standup for incels. 7
stuntmanc Posted November 19, 2024 Posted November 19, 2024 5 hours ago, AxB said: Mick Foley was the WWF's best wrestler in the Attitude Era. Because every main eventer they had post-Austin, they didn't get over until Foley put them over. Undertaker was stagnating to hell feuding with himself before Foley showed him it was actually possible to have good matches. Triple H, he was elevated from rookie to midcarder thanks to a Foley feud, elevated to IC title level by a subsequent Foley feud, and then elevated to Main Event/ World Champion level by another subsequent Foley feud. And really struggled throughout his career to have a good match with anyone who isn't Mick Foley. Foley's selflessness in every feud was/is something to behold. I think more wrestlers would benefit from having that sort of mentality. I couldn't love or agree with a take more on this board, bias be damned as Foley is my GOAT. 3 1
J.H. Posted November 19, 2024 Posted November 19, 2024 Foley had been up for wrestling Sainthood since the WCW Chamber of Horrors match, so no surprise he's responsible for being a major, if not THE major, catalyst of the Attitude Era He got so many guys over it's ridiculous! James 1
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