The Unholy Dragon Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 10 minutes ago, (BP) said: Wut but why Hide contents That story thread makes the best adaptation of Batman in any medium (the DCAU) into a story where Bruce is a big piece of shit and it does no favors for Barbara either. Yeah. It turns it into a story where Bruce has to get revenge for his slam piece who maybe retires because he won't let her be Batgirl after banging her? Crass terms intentional to reflect what a stupid reduction of Babs this is. I just...everything about this is bad. If nothing else, the age gap is SUPER GROSS since it's 40-something 15 year veteran Batman if it's consistent with the comics. He is twice her age. Gross gross gross WHY DO THE DCAU WRITERS KEEP PUSHING THIS RELATIONSHIP? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BP) Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, The Unholy Dragon said: Yeah. Hide contents It turns it into a story where Bruce has to get revenge for his slam piece who maybe retires because he won't let her be Batgirl after banging her? Crass terms intentional to reflect what a stupid reduction of Babs this is. I just...everything about this is bad. If nothing else, the age gap is SUPER GROSS since it's 40-something 15 year veteran Batman if it's consistent with the comics. He is twice her age. Gross gross gross WHY DO THE DCAU WRITERS KEEP PUSHING THIS RELATIONSHIP? Spoiler Exactly. Not to mention that Barbara is the much younger daughter of someone he really admires and considers a friend, or that Dick was in a relationship and in love with her for years. It's grody and makes no sense for that particular version Batman. Was their relationship only alluded to in Return of the Joker or did they reference it somewhere else and I'm blanking? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 This is a terrible decision and I can't fucking believe that clip that leaked online. I mean, holy shit no 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I still don't understand Timm's fascination with that relationship. Putting it in the film just comes across as a big troll to fans. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 9 hours ago, The Unholy Dragon said: The Killing Joke screened at SDCC and the original content portion marries the worst part of the DCAU with TKJ. Reveal hidden contents Batgirl and Batman have rooftop sex, then Bruce won't let her out in the field, including the line "It was just sex! It doesn't have to mean anything! I don't care! You don't care!" It's REALLY cringey. Yuck. One of the few things I don't like in the DC Animated Universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 To all of that! No, fucking no! Let me get this straight, you are going to address the criticisms against this film and it's use of Barbara Gordon who only existed before in the story "to get shot" by making her a Batman's girl toy? Seriously, what the fuck! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spritenaut 32 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I don't want to judge the movie until I see it, but, yeah, that original material sounds bad. Spoiler I don't remember Alan Moore even hinting that Batman and Batgirl had a relationship. I'm fairly certain he didn't make it explicit, and if he even implied a relationship, I either didn't pick up on it or forgot it. It's been awhile since i read Killing Joke. I thought the point of shooting Batgirl was to explore how random it all was. Joker had no grudge with Barbara. He was simply looking a tool to get at Batman, and settled on Gordon, partially to strike at Batman, partly to prove his "one bad day can break a moral man" theory. That said, it doesn't sound like putting them in some sort of relationship would empower Batgirl. Maybe it plays out better than it sounds, but it sounds like they marginalize the character rather than empower her. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BP) Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Spoiler I'm still having trouble processing that this creative team could possibly think that the best way to add depth or dimension to a female character is to make her have a relationship with the male protagonist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Interview with Bruce Timm about this new KILLING JOKE Does Timm have a daughter? If so, someone might want to call child protective services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 On a less appalling note: Justice League Action trailer looks decent. Art style isn't my thing but at this point, anything that IS won't sell. I notice that that Atom is wearing Ryan's costume and not Ray's, which gives me hope. Also also: THRAWN THRAWN THRAWN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 And the KILLING JOKE SDCC panel turned into a shitshow, too It would be amazing if the backlash to this was so severe, they just never put this thing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 There's probably more people excited for what they've released than not excited, which is the sad state of your Wolverine/Batman/Ghost Rider/Punisher category of fans. I still think it's a HUGE majority relative to people worried (as opposed to excited) about Batgirl being basically just a put down sexual foil to drive the main character on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiztor Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 i was hoping the "additional Barbara Gordon content" they were adding was some variation of the Batgirl Special issue that came out around the same time as the Killing Joke. alas, the above news is the worst possible thing they could've done, and makes me do a 180 in my support of this movie. hoping the Killling Joke portion of the story is good on its own and not ruined by the terrible choices which happen in the first half of the film. edit: just watched the film. the Killing Joke part is a pretty good adaptation. not without its faults, but enjoyable. the other part starts off fine but just crashes when the controversial part happens. Like, it kills the pacing and the mood and everything. Not a fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Quote http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/sdcc-batman-the-killing-joke-screenwriter-explains-controversial-sex-scene "The thing about this is that it's controversial, so we added more controversy," explained Azzarello. Fuck off! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.H. Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 The only place I can recall where Bruce and Barbara had a non-mentor relationship was in DCAU and even that was in Gotham Adventures (unless there was an episode I missed) James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BP) Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 I've gotten such a creepy vibe from those interviews. "She controls the men in her life in this story." Yuck. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 The last season of B:TAS, with the different animation style, had Babs with a crush on Bruce. And Beyond established a failed relationship between them later on. It was a bad idea then too. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 I want to say one of the last DCAU Batman films also hinted towards it. I still don't understand Timm's obsession with it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 15 hours ago, The Natural said: Fuck off! You know shit just got real when the coolest of the cucumbers, the laid back and easy-going The Natural is angry about this and telling Azarello to fuck off. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 13 hours ago, Eivion said: I want to say one of the last DCAU Batman films also hinted towards it. I still don't understand Timm's obsession with it. Hmm, might have been in Mystery of the Batwoman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spritenaut 32 Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Saw the movie last night. It was fairly entertaining. I thought the parts that adapted Moore's graphic novel were generally good. Was underwhelmed by the new material. It plays ok if you don't really know or care who Batgirl is, or have issues with the subtext. Does that make sense? What I mean by that is that it sort of exacerbates the problems people had with Barbara's treatment in Killing Joke. Barbara is still basically a helpless pawn to be fought over by the men, more a means to move the plot along than a character. Except now, there's this weird attempt to give her more characterization and instead of making her more "real", they objectify her even more. My take on the original material is that it' a weird representation of gender politics. Barbara initially comes off as kinda flighty. Batman/Bruce scolds her for not taking the criminal she's after more seriously. She kinda laughs that off, then more or less deflects Bruce's criticisms by dropping her pants and seducing him. Ugh. It's a very stereotypical way to view men and women. Barb starts out kinda flaky and light-hearted. The man disapproves because he knows better and knows this is serious business. In the end, she uses sex to deflect him and win him over to her side. It makes them both look bad and isn't really true to established characterization. I don't really think Bruce would get into a relationship with her, given the age difference, his relationship with Gordon, his risky life, etc. He knows better. Again, that's kinda of a gender politics stereotype. The man knows better but gives into the woman when his penis starts doing the thinking. The only thing I hated about raising the relationship issue the way they did is it makes a lot of the dialogue needlessly suggestive. At one point, Barbara says something along the lines of "Well, I've been Batman's partner for three years" and the meaning is unclear. Crime fighting partner? Romantic partner? Crime fighting partner but Barb is being deliberately coy? The way the deliver the line makes me think the writers at least intended for us to wonder. There's a fair bit of that. I'm not a purist, so it's nothing that upsets me too much, but I'd prefer they not go even further with Moore's women in jeopardy motif. Moore made Barbara's fate seem somewhat random. Joker wanted to hurt Batman, Gordon could accomplish that. Joker wanted to prove that one bad day could drive a insane, Gordon's daughter could accomplish that. I didn't like how Moore used Barbara to drive the story, but it made a certain amount of sense and it was a Batman story, not Batgirl. I have no idea what tacking on the relationship is supposed to accomplish. It's not really needed to propel the story forward because the kidnapping/rape/torture does that later on. And Bruce doesn't really react like someone who's girlfriend has just been fridged. On the Kyle Rayner scale of women in fridge'ings, Bruce's emotional response is underwhelming. I dunno. It was interesting for the controversy, but I think it would have been better if they had just adapted the graphic novel and let it stand as is. Timm said in an interview that the original pitch was for a straight adaption that only ran about 30 min. DC shelved the project twice (once after Watchmen flopped and DC got cold feet about doing R-rated superhero movies). In the interim, this is was got conceived and greenlighted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 On 7/25/2016 at 9:08 AM, (BP) said: I've gotten such a creepy vibe from those interviews. "She controls the men in her life in this story." Yuck. How is this even true? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BP) Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 3 minutes ago, TheVileOne said: How is this even true? Everyone's perspective seemed to be that young women are almost predatory in their pursuit of older men they work with and what's a fella to do. I can't believe that Tara Strong at the very least didn't object. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Isn't it offensive to suggest a woman controls the men in her life using sexuality? Is the sex between Batman and Batgirl supposed to be empowering? Honestly, I don't know anymore. A lot of these debates IMHO muddle the arguments of what is supposed to be on the right side of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 3 hours ago, Brian Fowler said: Hmm, might have been in Mystery of the Batwoman. That is one I was thinking of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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