Maybe Free Will and Self-Expression Through Creativity are Good Things

[John from Cincinnati]

6 minutes ago, just drew said:

Again, at this point I'd have had no idea if I was spewing gold or nonsense.

It’s gold, Jerry!

[John E. Dynamite]

On 2/12/2021 at 3:25 PM, John from Cincinnati said:

Yes, it's really unfortunate how much pleasure some people get from nitpicking and talking stuff down.

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I can't express enough how much fun I had doing this. So many old bad takes, my own included! Seeing a time when piranesi had more time for us! Dolfan randomly coming into a DC thread with a Megan Amram tweet in 2017?? So much fun. 

Also, Titanic is Cameron's masterpiece and get off your high horse. 

 

I read through the first page of this thread ready to chime in on the absurdity of a board having such a long-winded discussion criticizing it's criticisms (Sisyphus, meet boulder) Man, this one is already a bummer. Everybody's entitled to interact with the board however they want to, but when I hit page four of this topic and saw all my fave posters throwing their hands up because a) they don't have the time to read all this shit b) they don't have the time to type all the shit this conversation requires them to type...

I'd love to write up a bunch of stuff about the pros-and-or-cons of current AEW booking but this thread isn't about anything but the cons-and-just-cons of current Internet arguments. Type more, care less, act nice, you win, board loses. I shit on HoC a few months ago with vigor but I felt yucky about it the morning after. I don't post here to argue, I started posting here 15+ years ago because DEAN & Co.'s reverent irreverence & informal good-dude pretensions made the artform of pro-wrestling more enjoyable to a pimply-faced teenager who wanted to book his backyard fed better. The good reviews, the bad reviews, whatever. And that vibe is still worth it today.

I head into the Dynamite thread every week and I post if I liked the episode. I quip if I've got something to bitch about.  But if I didn't enjoy the show I wouldn't just remove myself from constant discussion about it, I'd stop watching it. We live within a vast surplus of entertainment and most of that entertainment is niche. Weird little things we watch/listen to/play because they're *exactly* what we like. And I get that people are going to nitpick their weird little things - If you think you're Pauline Kael and you think Hikaru Shida's strikes are comparable to the inherent fascism of Dirty Harry then have the fuck at it for a post or two.  Four fucking pages of arguments that have less to do with the AEW product and more to do with the personal ways people make their arguments?  Pulling up posts from 6 years ago to call somebody petty? The fuck is this? Next time I write this much it's going to be about wrestling I like. I implore you all to do the same.

Edited February 15, 2021 by John E. Dynamite

[John from Cincinnati]

1 hour ago, John E. Dynamite said:

Everybody's entitled to interact with the board however they want to

I agree completely. Very well stated. 

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but when I hit page four of this topic and saw all my fave posters throwing their hands up because a) they don't have the time to read all this shit b) they don't have the time to type all the shit this conversation requires them to type...

Some of my favourite posters as well. It's a long, ultimately pointless conversation. Because we all know most of us will emerge with beliefs relatively the same as when we entered into it. Not for everyone. Understandably so. 

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I'd love to write up a bunch of stuff about the pros-and-or-cons of current AEW booking but this thread isn't about anything but the cons-and-just-cons of current Internet arguments. Type more, care less, act nice, you win, board loses.

I haven't seen anyone "acting" nice. I hope those phonies, if they're out there, aren't poisoning everyone's experience of the board. I know nobody is required to interact with this thread, so hopefully any toxicity you've seen is contained here. 

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We live within a vast surplus of entertainment and most of that entertainment is niche. Weird little things we watch/listen to/play because they're *exactly* what we like.

One of the weird aspects of entertainment I've seen over the last couple decades online is that the larger and more popular something is, the more it invites diverse, contradictory takes that have a difficult time co-existing. And on a wrestling discussion board in the English language in 2021, what's more popular to discuss than AEW? 

I wish some people would allow such takes to co-exist in greater harmony. But that tends not to be the nature of things. 

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Four fucking pages of arguments that have less to do with the AEW product and more to do with the personal ways people make their arguments? Pulling up posts from 6 years ago to call somebody petty? 

And this is why threads and conversations like this ultimately fail and are somewhat pointless. We're all kind of talking past one another.

I was calling AxB (who I like) a hypocrite. Not petty. I was being petty in illustrating the point. But that's not what I was seeking to call anyone. Yet at the same time, should I expect anyone to be holding on every word? Or assume I'm making my point in the optimal manner and it's being received as such? None of that is to be expected.

I agree with you that all of this is a bit silly. But my being named personally, I'm keen to dig in if only because I find it an enjoyable exercise. I sense you'd strongly disagree. And that's okay. 

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And I get that people are going to nitpick their weird little things - If you think you're Pauline Kael and you think Hikaru Shida's strikes are comparable to the inherent fascism of Dirty Harry then have the fuck at it for a post or two. 

If nothing else comes of this thread (and nothing will): Even as parody, I wish this was a real thing. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by John from Cincinnati

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

7 hours ago, just drew said:

I wanted to respond to a couple points I saw in this thread. 

 

I did, then it was pointed out to me that I'm rambling. I've been up for a day and a half with a sick little boy. He's fine. I'm tired. I'm not typing any more today.

As long as your kid is fine, who gives a shit about any of the rest of it. I hope you got some rest.

Edited February 15, 2021 by El Gran Gordi

[AxB]

4 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

I was calling AxB (who I like) a hypocrite.

You aimed and missed, then. I said it's possible for people to gain enjoyment from nitpicking and talking things down (as a way of *leaving the thread*) and you spent hours researching posts from years ago where  I was nitpicking things and talking them down and enjoying it. Thus proving that what I said people enjoy, I also do. So... I agree with myself! Great job. Nice to know my opinions have been so consistent.

I've been trying to leave this thread over and over again. Stop trying to pull me back in. 

[John from Cincinnati]

Ah, so you weren't talking people down for doing such. My genuine mistake. You obviously enjoy partaking in similar behaviour, making it clear you find common ground with the nitpickers and talkers down of stuff. Thank you for finally setting me straight. I wildly misinterpreted the spirit of your brief earlier posts, clearly. I apologize.

And you made your point quite concisely. Turns out you could be arsed after all. Thanks for giving me something to think about. 

As with the post you quoted, I'm not quoting you here. I'd hate for you to get a notification and keep being drawn back to this thread that nobody is compelling you to click on. I hope your self-control wins out. 

Oh, and twenty+ minutes top with much amusement along the way. Which is almost certainly still too much time, but I tend to enjoy wasting it. Turns out randomly clicking pages on someone's profile isn't the Herculean effort you'd expect. As with "essays" and "dissertations" here, I don't understand how allergic some people are to anything but the most shallow one-minute-max response they can fart out. Especially in a thread which started with such effort. 

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

On 2/8/2021 at 10:23 AM, John from Cincinnati said:

I would caution that if you feel that I'm one of these people you're describing here (and my being personally tagged in your post, I make the assumption that I'm one of the people you'd like to reach in this dialogue), it's my intention to disabuse you of that notion. I am getting the maximum amount of joy out their television show based on the way I choose to consume content. 

 

As to "bad, lazy, and/or basically pointless criticism," I don't know if you feel I'm a purveyor of such. But since you did tag me, I'll once again take it upon myself to get out in front of this one. 

 

 

 

You made a lot of interesting points in this post, many of which I'll hopefully get around to addressing in this thread eventually. I pulled the above two quotes because I'm having trouble quoting posts from multiple pages and I have decided to cut and paste and tag people instead, and I wanted to point out that I don't think that tagging people in a post is the same thing as calling them out.  I generally tag people to give them credit for stuff that they posted first, or to draw attention to something I think they'll be interested in. I was not aware it might be taken as a challenge.

And, literally, the tag you are referring to was this:This is not intended as an attack on, say, @Goodear or @Andy in Kansas so I am really not sure how that tag in particular was taken as an attack. It is pretty much the opposite of an attack. 

However, if those tags encouraged you and Goodear  to participate in this thread, then it's all for the best. Both of you have made a lot of interesting points here already.

so:

@John from Cincinnatisaid: 

 In actuality, I see the interests of art and business mixing constantly, and in ways that make it difficult to simply laud things we enjoy as being in service of art and dismiss things we don't enjoy (or enjoy less) as being cynically in service of business. 

Your willingness to reach for what were the "obvious examples" of wrestling artistry in 2005 WWE does call to attention the other side of that equation: What of the people who weren't "obvious examples" of the dichotomy you're trying to present? What of Triple H? He's easy to pigeonhole cynically as a political animal and an ambitious businessperson. And he's every bit of that. But he also spent 2005 paying off Evolution, having personal dream matches with Ric Flair and putting in masterful work trying to establish Batista as a franchise player going forward. Am I to take it that he took less artistic pride in that work than Bryan Danielson had in his own? Does he not love professional wrestling because he chooses to work in service of a certain system that runs counter to the tastes of a certain sect of wrestling fans? Because I don't see it that way, and I doubt you would either. I don't think he loves wrestling less because he doesn't choose to go the Spanky route and doesn't have the clout someone like Benoit once had with a subsection of fans. And I choose not to see him as someone whose artistic and business goals are misaligned, as you've presented latter-day Benoit and Guerrero. I see someone pursing what he sees the best of both. 

I certainly agree that there is not a hard line where people on one side are 100% businessman and on the other 100% artists. It's very much on a continuum, and I'm sure the point on that continuum where individual people stand moves and changes with time and circumstance. 

I agree that it would be foolish to argue that Bryan Danielson and Eddie Guerrero are pure, unsullied artists who care nothing for money or recognition or to argue that HHH doesn't love pro wrestling. However, I have absolutely zero problem arguing that, on a continuum, Danielson and Guerrero are way, way, way further over on the "Driven by an insatiable inner drive to create and a love for their art" side of things, and HHH is way way way further over on the "Driven by the need for money, power, and recognition" side.

I also pretty firmly believe that WWE is run with way more of an eye toward absolutely maximizing profits and AEW is run way more based on a love for the art of wrestling and for the people who do it.

Again, to be clear, that's looking at things on a continuum. Not trying to argue that the Young Bucks don't love their merch money. They obviously do. Not trying to argue that nothing beautiful ever comes out of WWE. Anyone can see that would be a foolish argument to try and make. But, to me at least, it seems screamingly clear which side each company tends toward.

Going back to what @RunningFromAmerica said:

Although obviously there have not been many live fans, AEW is fundamentally an act of co-creation - yes, that mean the wrestlers - but it also means the fans and the viewers at home.

This is what I mean! To me, this is The Art of Pro Wrestling. It's an extemporaneous form. It involves the wrestlers and the ref and the managers and people at ringside improvising together and responding to the crowd to function at its highest level. At its best, it can be very much like jazz, and I mean that as a huge compliment.

I don't think, at all, that pro wrestling can thrive as an art when everything is too tightly controlled. I think the art most often flows from the extemporaneous element. Hopefully I'll get much more into that if I ever manage to write up my thoughts on Free Will and Self Expression. 

Absolutely, co-creation is key.

@MrKothoga said:

Coming back to the greater theme of this thread, I really like things like Taz beeing right despite being a bad guy in theory. Most of the time AEW feels more like people coming together playing characters they wan't to play, even if that makes their stories chaotic and muddled at times. FTR vs. Young Bucks is a great example of things not really coming together from a storytelling view for me. WWE drove me away because you feel that people are playing a role someone else imposed upon them (even though some people are fantastic in their roles). I don't have that feeling with AEW (even though some people suck with their characters).

Me too. I love that sense of freedom, and the willingness to make mistakes along the way... and the willingness to admit mistakes and try to make things better. 

It baffles and saddens me to read that some people here don't care whether the wrestlers who are entertaining them are happy or not.  can't help but care. Stuff that's made in a joyful spirit tends to be more joyful. Stuff that's made with love tends to spark love and joy and delight. 

Certainly, great art is often made in unhappy conditions and/or under duress and/or sparked by creative conflict. However, I generally don't ask my pro wrestling to be great art. I'm more than happy if it sparks joy and delight and a "Holy shit!" from time to time.  I appreciate the people who are entertaining me and I like to think that they enjoy their jobs. So, for me, that's a huge plus when it comes to watching AEW. 

@AxB said:

I suppose it's possible that, in terms of everyone enjoying things their own way, to some people the most pleasure they get might be from nitpicking and talking stuff down.

I'm all for positivity, where it is warranted. I'm sometimes baffled, in certain situations, as to why people want to be negative online. So, this will probably sound like i'm being ironic or something, but I sincerely mean it: If picking nits makes people happier than enjoying stuff, I'd hate to, in any minor way, spoil that for them. I'm all for people being happy. 

(And it's not like I never pick nits or complain about stuff).

@HumanChessgamesaid:

There are certainly a lot of words in this thread, all of which I can't be bothered to read, so I'll just try and comment on my general take about the company.

If that was intended as a parody of people who comment on AEW without ever watching Dark or the YouTube shows, it was bang on! Well done!

(Nah, I'm just kidding. Have it at! Fully-informed discussion is probably better than less-tan-fully-informed discussion, but less-than-fully-formed discussion generally beats the hell out of no discussion at all).

@NikoBaltimoresaid:

I just like that they do their best to do right by their employees, wrestlers and fans.  When they say they care I don't sense much bullshit and I've been looking for that a lot especially when they started.  So unless something comes out to change my tune on that they'll have quite the fan in me for the long haul.

Well said. I very much agree.

@alstein said:

You're not supposed to like everything AEW does.  It's a Chinese buffet...

Nice! Why complain that you don't like the lychee nuts? Have some more mango pudding! 

I love Chinese buffets. AEW's buffet has lettuce wraps!

@christopher.annino said:

Imagine a We Love Ice Cream thread and the same few people constantly post about buying Neapolitan and hating the fact that there's strawberry and not just more chocolate.

It's not "people complaining about AEW" that bothers me, it's that a lot of the complaints are extremely repetitive (more, again, elsewhere rather than here on DVDVR specifically). Dissenting voices are necessary for good discussion. Agree that it would be nice to get more fresh takes, though. 

@John E. Dynamite said:

Everybody's entitled to interact with the board however they want to... 

As long as that includes making long posts about topics that not everyone finds interesting, you get a hard agree from me on that one. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by El Gran Gordi

[Craig H]

On 2/15/2021 at 2:22 AM, John from Cincinnati said:

I was calling AxB (who I like) a hypocrite. Not petty. I was being petty in illustrating the point. But that's not what I was seeking to call anyone. Yet at the same time, should I expect anyone to be holding on every word?

I feel like you should re-evaluate how you approach human relationships, interactions, and discussions if this is your thought process. I mean, re-read this and ask yourself if this is a busted way of approaching, well, anything. Your impulse to be argumentative impedes any sort of decent discourse that can be had with you. 

On a different note, someone please kill this thread already. This is just beyond ridiculous even if no one is going at each other's throats. 

[Technico Support]

I like AEW.  It has far more good than bad.  The stuff I feel is bad is also pretty compartmentalized.  I look forward to their shows.

[John from Cincinnati]

3 hours ago, Craig H said:

I feel like you should re-evaluate how you approach human relationships, interactions, and discussions if this is your thought process.

Pass. 

[John from Cincinnati]

13 hours ago, El Gran Gordi said:

I generally tag people to give them credit for stuff that they posted first, or to draw attention to something I think they'll be interested in. I was not aware it might be taken as a challenge.

And, literally, the tag you are referring to was this:This is not intended as an attack on, say, @Goodear or @Andy in Kansas so I am really not sure how that tag in particular was taken as an attack. It is pretty much the opposite of an attack. 

Oh yeah, it wasn't an attack at all. You've been nothing short of consistently affable. My having seen how some of these conversations go, I was definitely coming in a bit cagey. Which is to my own detriment and not merited by your comments. We're all good here. 

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so:

@John from Cincinnatisaid: 

 In actuality, I see the interests of art and business mixing constantly, and in ways that make it difficult to simply laud things we enjoy as being in service of art and dismiss things we don't enjoy (or enjoy less) as being cynically in service of business. 

Your willingness to reach for what were the "obvious examples" of wrestling artistry in 2005 WWE does call to attention the other side of that equation: What of the people who weren't "obvious examples" of the dichotomy you're trying to present? What of Triple H? He's easy to pigeonhole cynically as a political animal and an ambitious businessperson. And he's every bit of that. But he also spent 2005 paying off Evolution, having personal dream matches with Ric Flair and putting in masterful work trying to establish Batista as a franchise player going forward. Am I to take it that he took less artistic pride in that work than Bryan Danielson had in his own? Does he not love professional wrestling because he chooses to work in service of a certain system that runs counter to the tastes of a certain sect of wrestling fans? Because I don't see it that way, and I doubt you would either. I don't think he loves wrestling less because he doesn't choose to go the Spanky route and doesn't have the clout someone like Benoit once had with a subsection of fans. And I choose not to see him as someone whose artistic and business goals are misaligned, as you've presented latter-day Benoit and Guerrero. I see someone pursing what he sees the best of both. 

I certainly agree that there is not a hard line where people on one side are 100% businessman and on the other 100% artists. It's very much on a continuum, and I'm sure the point on that continuum where individual people stand moves and changes with time and circumstance. 

I agree that it would be foolish to argue that Bryan Danielson and Eddie Guerrero are pure, unsullied artists who care nothing for money or recognition or to argue that HHH doesn't love pro wrestling. However, I have absolutely zero problem arguing that, on a continuum, Danielson and Guerrero are way, way, way further over on the "Driven by an insatiable inner drive to create and a love for their art" side of things, and HHH is way way way further over on the "Driven by the need for money, power, and recognition" side.

I also pretty firmly believe that WWE is run with way more of an eye toward absolutely maximizing profits and AEW is run way more based on a love for the art of wrestling and for the people who do it.

Again, to be clear, that's looking at things on a continuum. Not trying to argue that the Young Bucks don't love their merch money. They obviously do. Not trying to argue that nothing beautiful ever comes out of WWE. Anyone can see that would be a foolish argument to try and make. But, to me at least, it seems screamingly clear which side each company tends toward.

Yeah, this is a great rebuttal that pretty much addresses what I was getting at. While your 2005 article clearly tried to steer away from this, I thought maybe some of the classifications were edging towards being a little too close to binary. A continuum is a great way to frame the issue. I still remain skeptical of the conventional wisdom about where things may belong on these continuums or the how large gulf is between some of these particular companies or individuals on any particular continuum. I still think some of those perceptions are coloured a bit too much by our own taste as consumers, my own included. But nothing so concerning as to get bogged down in.

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This is what I mean! To me, this is The Art of Pro Wrestling. It's an extemporaneous form. It involves the wrestlers and the ref and the managers and people at ringside improvising together and responding to the crowd to function at its highest level. At its best, it can be very much like jazz, and I mean that as a huge compliment.

I don't think, at all, that pro wrestling can thrive as an art when everything is too tightly controlled.

Good instincts and a knack for improvisation are wonderful tools to cultivate in this form of entertainment, especially in a live performance like this where any number of things can go wrong. That said, I know I've found occasion to be entertained at the highest level by stuff Randy Savage planned step for step on a legal pad. I think for every hard and fast truth you see about what makes great wrestling, there are clear exceptions and other ways of doing things that have also produced high-level, near-universally revered work. 

[Unnatural]

See me, im loving the back and forth. Actual discussion! Even if its not about the promotion but how people approach wrestling, if you'll excuse the pun I'm #AllIn

That was wretched hahaha I'm sorry. Would that more of the threads were like this, people writing out their thoughts and going in depth on some parts and not just doing 1 sentence hot takes

I mean I have to skim the four pages again but I don't think we have any single photo here and for me I feel like that's a milestone to celebrate in itself since many of the weekly threads I'd like to check in on end up feeling like endless photo/gif spam by what I'm almost sure is some AI wrestling spambot and no this isn't a shot at the guy but please confirm thats not some AI when it constantly spits out the same gif first as a tweet then an actual gif and sometimes a YouTube clip but on top of spamming non-Photo threads with double or triple photo posts we get LISTMANIA! Hey do you guys like lists? Here's my top 10 list with rankings! No there won't be any attempt at generating discussion, it's going to be photo/gif/video spamming and LISTS!!!1!!

Like I'd rather wade into threads like this with dictionaries and encyclopedias of thoughts written down and explained in detail than waiting 3 minutes for a page to load because of triple or double photo and gif posts by what I stupidly think is an AI bot but surely no its not, that's an actual person

And lemme apologize to the homie right now. I said last time I didn't want things to feel like a personal attack and called myself an asshole and you rightly cussed me out. You had every right and I didn't get upset or anything because with the text you quoted from my post I see how it was seen as a personal attack. 

So assuming that maybe you read my post Natural and get angry with me for "attacking you" or singling you out, im sorry. Legit I don't have a problem with you as a person. Its just I wish you'd take advantage of the spoiler box instead of treating the wrestling and TV and comic and movie threads like a social media platform. I'm in the boonies with no signal 99% of the time. Silly of me to come to a message board for discussion, totally. Do I wish the photos and gifs would stay to the photo thread? I don't mind them when tossed in spoiler boxes, but brother i mean I'm looking at the 2019 NWA thread and all the way back then even Edwin was pointing out how the photo spam was overdone. Nice Guy and the Seinfeld group laid off the Seinfeld gifs and links and yet Ripa in the Jan 2021 photo thread page 1 1st post talks about using spoiler boxes if you have to post more than pic, more than one gif, and my thing is the way you go over the top on this one thing totally kills me being able to even browse the board. The Seinfeld guys can lay off their links but somehow you're immune? Enough whining on my part. You're welcome to cuss me out if you feel upset at me. I definitely won't blame you. Enough folks on the board appreciate you that I know I'm in the minority on how I feel. The majority of them likely have wifi available and congrats to all who don't have issues with lag and the board taking forever to load.