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FEBRUARY 2021 Discussion of Wrestling


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I don't even want to hate WWE. I want them to improve, I want the TV to be good, I want their business practices to not be so fucking scummy, but none of that is going to happen because despite miserably failing creatively, these huge fucking companies continue giving them billions. I could maybe understand giving them less than a billion, but Fox paid over a billion for a show that pulls in worse ratings than other advertising friendly shows that would be cheaper to air, NBC not only paid somewhere around a billion for Raw, which fucking sucks and continues getting worse, but they paid ANOTHER billion for WWE Network content that will add less than a million subscribers to Peacock.

WHY?!?

I want to shake the shit out of everyone on Wall Street and every one of these corporations for throwing this much money into WWE. And again, I don't want WWE to fail. I'm not against them making money, but I can't see the logic in giving them THIS much money when they continue to have just awful business practices and when their on air entertainment (with the exception of SmackDown I guess) continues getting worse.

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The more WWE tries to exercise this control over their real lives (I.e. CJ Perry’s Twitter instead of Lana’s), the harder time their going to have proving the “WWE Superstars” are actually independent contractors instead of employees.  Of course, someone has to challenge that, which seems unlikely.

Things are going to get interesting if house shows/live tours really go away, because then you’re only paying most people to work five days a month or so (depending on the status of the brand split). Shareholders will start to ask why they’re paying people the same amount of money for only doing about 25% of the work they used to do (ballpark).  At the same time, you’re going to have talent getting bored and looking for side hustles or something else to do, and at some point, someone is going to test them.  At what point is it ok for Tyler Breeze to have a wrestling school, but CJ Perry can’t have a personal Twitter account? If Tyler Breeze is investing in real estate or Pokémon cards (I just listened to his ep of the New Day pod), at what point are those outside businesses too much? They obviously shouldn’t be, but neither should playing video games on Twitch under real names.  The stricter they get, the more arbitrary the lines will get, and you’ll see more people not re-signing.

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The other thing I think about is what if Brodie passes away in, say, March or April. There was such an outpouring of support for Brodie Lee and it's hard to imagine all of these people comfortably reaching out to express their sympathy when they're mandated to do bullshit like this. You shouldn't ever feel like you're going to get in trouble because you go on Twitter to say, "that was a beautiful tribute show." It's just madness and I wonder what happens when there's another tragedy.

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You guys ever heard of a job being called "golden handcuffs"?  As in, you feel stuck because the pay, etc. is so good, but you're not happy.  You don't want to do it anymore, but you have to because you'd be crazy to give it up.  There are probably a lot of guys/girls who feel that way in WWE.  

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I think at some point or another, you have to decide if money is more important than your own mental health and happiness. I can't fathom how difficult it would be to walk away from a "dream job" that pays as much as WWE does/possibly could in a lot of cases, but on the other side of that coin: I also can't imagine putting my money ahead of my happiness.

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17 minutes ago, Casey said:

Daniel Bryan's gimmick as the Planet's Champion in late 2018 was the test run for this.

Also Retribution, a whiny group of laughably ineffective wannabe militants who were angry about not being handed something by the company, totally not Antifa.

 

Edited by Technico Support
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39 minutes ago, Infinit said:

These clauses would be much easier swallow of these "Superstars" were employees and not independent contractors. 

Agreed, although that goes back to the point of "well, you agreed to this in writing."

I honestly don't understand why talent agrees to some of these policies.  My non-expert opinion is that WWE's definition of "independent contractor" differs greatly from the accepted legal definition.  I can casually read over the criteria for a worker to be classified as an independent contractor instead of an employee and realize that WWE wrestlers may not meet the criteria, so I'm confused as to why a wrestler (or a group of wrestlers) has never taken the issue to court.

(Note: I've moonlighted as an independent contractor and also been responsible for making sure that some of the independent contractors occasionally employed by my firm meet the requirements for contractor status, so I'm not unfamiliar with this issue.)

The simpler, quicker way to force Vince to the bargaining table would be to stage a unified walkout.  At this point, Vince's success is largely based on his ability to provide live programming on a weekly basis.  It seems likely that a mass walkout could force Vince's hand fairly quickly.   Would he really want to go without a tv production for more than a few weeks?  Seems unlikely.  I imagine his tv partners might not be understanding if he couldn't produce new content due to a strike, particularly since ratings aren't great and some execs might like an excuse to void or renegotiate the contracts.  It also seems unlikely NBC Universal or Fox would take Vince's side in the PR dispute given the optics of a company that's more profitable than ever draconian putting restrictions on employees few of us would agree to.

Of course, a walkout would only work if you can get all/most of the employees on the same page.  Which is apparently impossible in this business. 

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A unified walkout of a particular roster for a show means nothing in WWE. An entire show's worth of talent was held hostage by Saudi Arabia (sorry, it's true, if you don't believe it, then I don't know what to tell ya) and WWE's response was to first get Vince and the biggest names out of there, and then use the NXT roster and the people the Saudis deemed undesirable (so, women and Sami Zayn, and also Daniel Bryan). Unless you're seriously suggesting that WWE's massive roster of probably well over 200+ wrestlers ALL do a unified walkout, which is just insanity.

And it's pretty easy to see why these men and women agree to these contracts. We've talked about it in here. It's a combination of money and "hey, we're WWE, you watched us when you were a kid! Don't you want to try and become the next John Cena?! Sign this contract."

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1 minute ago, Casey said:

Unless you're seriously suggesting that WWE's massive roster of probably well over 200+ wrestlers ALL do a unified walkout, which is just insanity.

Especially when you have people like AJ Styles and Seth Rollins who constantly carry the WWE's water

(And that isn't even addressing old folks like Taker who will peddle the WWE's lies 25 years after the fact)

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Matt Striker quoted someone on No Surrender this weekend (in reference to Eric Young & Cody Deaner), “It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they’ve been fooled.” This immediately made me think of Vince.

A seemingly large percentage of current WWE wrestlers were huge WWE fans as kids, and this has been their dream job forever. They’re now there, making great (?) money, doing the only thing they’ve ever wanted to do (and in some cases, maybe the only job they’d really be qualified for at this point). I can’t imagine the mental gymnastics it would take to convince yourself to quit that job, and go work for a “lesser” company.

I think it highlights the difference between current wrestlers, and ones from say, the 70s, who didn’t grow up watching it, only stumbled into it by being recruited from their job as a bouncer or whatever, and viewed it as a business/way to make money ONLY. I could be wrong, but just can’t imagine Race, Brody, Funk, Hansen, etc. being told they can’t side hustle, and actually being ok with that.

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and, conversely, the handful of guys who do take that more mercenary approach? 

Warrior, Goldberg, Brock "Why would I watch the show, Paul?" Lesnar?

Those are the guys who actually got/get over on Vince in contracts, again and again.  And get booked above the Dream Job Good Soldiers again and again. Oh sure, they get tarred with that "doesn't have passion for the business!" brush, but that kinda just exposes what a con job that idea is.

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Let's say WWE has a deal with Coca-Cola to sponsor a PPV. A WWE wrestler goes on IG and promotes a new Pepsi product. That's could be seen as a conflict of interest and I doubt Stephanie wants to explain why one of their wrestlers was doing that to Coke's CEO, especially if it's seen as something embarrassing or over the top.

However, if wrestlers were treated more like pro athletes, they could secure their own endorsement deals. Roger Goddell can pick whoever he wants as the official insurance company for the NFL. It doesn't stop Patrick Mahomes from signing an individual deal with State Farm.

And to RIPPA's point, Mahomes owns his name and likeness, whereas WWE creates characters for their wrestlers. Which is why, legally speaking, it's an uphill battle to fight the company on it. The carny lives on, indeed.

If you're a top name or someone they want to push to higher status, the company will find opportunities for you to make extra money. Guaranteed whoever was part of the Hyundai Drive for More campaign got a check. But they only extend that to so many. If you're not in that circle, your earning potential takes a hit and because they've banned third-party work, you're stuck.

The ultimate goal is for WWE to become a self-functioning talent agency. That's been their mindset for a couple of years. Hiring Nick Khan has likely brought that more into focus.

On one hand, an in-house agency makes sense. It's in line with them being more on the entertainment side of the ledger. They have 250+ attractive and talented people signed to them, many of whom not having representation or the direct means to secure deals on their own. They don't have unions to contend with in setting payrates. They're not going to get Roman Reigns or Sasha Banks to dump their Hollywood representation. But they can consolidate most of the others to tap into that money avenue.

But the point of an agency is to maximize earnings for as many clients as possible. Take Lana/CJ Perry. She's clearly ambitious and has some connections. Instead of working with her to further increase her income/profile which could help the company, they cut off those chances if they in any way conflict with WWE's corporate goals.

There will be no massive walkout. The top star in the company left for several months because he wasn't comfortable with their response to COVID. He only came back after they moved into a larger facility where he's given a private dressing room, creative control, and who knows what else. If there was a time to do a large-scale exit, it was March 2020. Only a few went and eventually returned.

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2 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

I'll be interested to see how WWE handles the charity endorsement thing. Part of me assumes this is a way to clamp down on the Q-Anon crowd, but would they actually try to stop someone like Sami Zayn, who clearly endorses a legitimate cause?

That's the one that fascinates me too

Because like Big E currently has the Rumble Brodie Lee gear up on Ebay (maybe the auction has closed by now) - could you imagine the WWE trying to tell him he couldn't give the money to the Rochester food bank?

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Yeah, it’s tough, because once they introduce a policy like this, I’d imagine they have to be careful about selectively enforcing it. Big can of worms.

It can become very easy to let these things take away from the enjoyment of just watching wrestling. I try to remind myself that somewhere out there in the multiverse, Michael Cole is talking about how much Minoru Suzuki loves having fun with the WWE Universe. That usually makes me feel better about our timeline.

Edited by bodyslamdunk
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I'm sure WWE has zero problems with one of their stars being associated with one of the biggest shows on TV.  

That being said, I really, really hope this is all borne out of the Nia Jax hole thing where someone had to explain to Vince what brand ambassadorships are and why Nia could get outside pay for a joke he wrote.  

And then him throwing something at that T-Rex skull he keeps in his office. 

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1 hour ago, Log said:

You guys ever heard of a job being called "golden handcuffs"?  As in, you feel stuck because the pay, etc. is so good, but you're not happy.  You don't want to do it anymore, but you have to because you'd be crazy to give it up.  There are probably a lot of guys/girls who feel that way in WWE.  

And yet, AEW pays somewhat competitively, don't they?

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God - the sponsorship battles always make me giggle.

I am old enough to remember Dream Team members covering the Reebok logos on their Olympic gear with American Flags so to not piss off Nike

Of course - Nike has been inserting its influence over USA Basketball forever

I mean I could understand the WWE trying to cut that off before they started having issues but I mean they already bring shut upon themselves like with their TV deals.

Move everything to NBC... WE STILL LOVE YOU FOX! DON'T CANCEL OUR DEAL!

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2 minutes ago, Dog said:

And yet, AEW pays somewhat competitively, don't they?

For a) 1/3 the audience and b) 1/3 the roster size.  

If you're willing to give up the WWE paycheck you have to be good enough to get into their roster, which is no guarantee.  And then after that, well, you're going to Japan and all the costs associated there... or you're going to Impact/ROH and on down the line.

Not saying you're wrong, but there are other factors to consider for a pro grappler. 

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