FEBRUARY 2021 Discussion of Wrestling

[Spontaneous]

Well I'm sure this is their dream and they are just happy to be there so it's fine. If this is them being lenient I can only imagine how bad it will get. Probably crazy things like WWE writing their social media posts for the talent. 

[Log]

4 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

It's funny how Vince killed off kayfabe (which is fine!) but kept one major aspect that benefited him: the portrayal of the wrestlers you see on his shows as real people and not actors playing roles.  That way he can control any many aspects of their outside-the-ring lives and also they can't get membership in SAG/AFTRA.  If "when I'm playing my tv role vs just being a regular person" is kept as grey as possible, he can keep on pushing the envelope of what he can demand from them.

EDIT: I wrote this while @Logwas posting! 

I also think there's been a shift in who the "marks" in wrestling are these days.  Promoters (really just Vince) aren't trying to "work" the fans anymore.  They're working the workers (sorry, that's corny).  They've convinced an entire generation of wrestlers that the WWE is the ONLY career path that matters.  It's your dream!  Do whatever it takes to achieve it!  You haven't "made it" unless you've stepped foot in that WWE ring!  When you have a bunch of employees with that mentality, it's easier to take advantage of them.

I actually worked for a tv station that has many parallels to WWE, of course on a much smaller scale.  The station worked it's way up to being known as a nice place to work (If any of you have worked in local television news, you know that's a low bar to clear).  We would have a meeting at the end of every year where we were told how it was, financially, the station's best year ever, year after year.  Then, we'd get told how they just couldn't do raises this year, though because of blah, blah, blah.  BUT, we were all part of something great!  We were doing something we'd tell our kids and grandkids about!  Isn't that wonderful?!?!?  Yeah, thanks.  

None of that is anything unusual, really.  Companies have been doing that forever.  Doesn't make it less shitty, but it's not uncommon.

[EVA]

4 minutes ago, Log said:

I also think there's been a shift in who the "marks" in wrestling are these days.  Promoters (really just Vince) aren't trying to "work" the fans anymore.  They're working the workers (sorry, that's corny).  They've convinced an entire generation of wrestlers that the WWE is the ONLY career path that matters.  It's your dream!  Do whatever it takes to achieve it!  You haven't "made it" unless you've stepped foot in that WWE ring!  When you have a bunch of employees with that mentality, it's easier to take advantage of them.

Pretty much the only thing the Performance Center has succeeded at.

[Technico Support]

Regarding the workers being worked and "living their dream," what kills me is seeing wrestlers go against their beliefs to work there.  Sami Zayn is doing humanitarian work IRL while in WWE he's working for far-right septuagenarian who books him as an annoying woke hipster quasi freedom fighter, and takes wads of cash to hold shows in countries Sami's not allowed into by threat of death.  Vince saw Sami's background and the things he cares about and said, "yep, that's a bad guy right there."  Jake Atlas was out and proud but now he's 3/4 back in the closet.   But I guess cognitive dissonance is a hell of a thing and you'll look the other way or justify a lot of things in your head to work your dream job and make a lot of money.

I try hard to understand that wrestlers need a paycheck and I don't know what other work was available at the time they signed with WWE, but god damn it's so hard sometimes

[Casey]

On that Sami Zayn note - promoting non-WWE approved charities is off the table now, so one has to wonder if that means Sami for Syria won't get promoted on his timeline anymore. Or, on the flip side, maybe it was a WWE sanctioned thing to begin with.

[Craig H]

4 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Regarding the workers being worked and "living their dream," what kills me is seeing wrestlers go against their beliefs to work there.  Sami Zayn is doing humanitarian work IRL while in WWE he's working for far-right septuagenarian who books him as an annoying woke hipster quasi freedom fighter, and takes wads of cash to hold shows in countries Sami's not allowed into by threat of death.  Vince saw Sami's background and the things he cares about and said, "yep, that's a bad guy right there."  Jake Atlas was out and proud but now he's 3/4 back in the closet.   But I guess cognitive dissonance is a hell of a thing and you'll look the other way or justify a lot of things in your head to work your dream job and make a lot of money.

I try hard to understand that wrestlers need a paycheck and I don't know what other work was available at the time they signed with WWE, but god damn it's so hard sometimes

I think this is what bugs me the most too. Like, Cesaro sticking around is fine or whatever because he's been there for so long and I'm guessing he'll likely retire there. If you're someone like Daniel Bryan or Sami Zayn or even the New Day, then what in the fuck are you even doing? I would hope those guys would know their worth and would know that working for WWE doesn't provide validation for their careers. I was thinking about you guys talking about "The List" episode of the New Day's podcast and holy shit, there's so many racist ideas New Day was given. I just don't think I could work for a company like that.

[Craig H]

7 minutes ago, Casey said:

On that Sami Zayn note - promoting non-WWE approved charities is off the table now, so one has to wonder if that means Sami for Syria won't get promoted on his timeline anymore. Or, on the flip side, maybe it was a WWE sanctioned thing to begin with.

It's third party charities. Sami's charity is his own so I wouldn't think it will be a problem for him.

BUT STILL, holy shit, Sami is running a charity to provide help for people in Syria while Vince is taking millions from the Saudis. What in the fuck.

[The Natural]

10 minutes ago, Craig H said:

It's third party charities. Sami's charity is his own so I wouldn't think it will be a problem for him.

BUT STILL, holy shit, Sami is running a charity to provide help for people in Syria while Vince is taking millions from the Saudis. What in the fuck.

It's fucked up. WWE's run by a senile man who craves power and subjugation of others. Hypocrisy of Be a Star as well. Fuck Vince McMahon and unionize.

Edited February 16, 2021 by The Natural

[Eoae]

38 minutes ago, Casey said:

 I'm going to assume they were told that back then that even if you go under your real name and do these things, it's still not allowed.

Meltzer addressed that point on the Observer Radio, and you are correct.

I have mixed feelings about this.  I'm usually pro-business so I can understand Vince wanting to assert more control over his intellectual property, if for no other reason than to keep talent from embarrassing the WWE or promoting competitors of companies WWE has promotional deals with .  And talent did sign contracts giving Vince ownership of their likenesses (WWE already owned the characters, I assume).  I'm in a white collar profession and I have a somewhat similar clause in my contract.  I can't take outside work or make media appearances without clearing it without my employer.  I doubt they're watching my social media, but I'd expect them to discipline or fire me if I said something that reflected badly on them.

That said, the way Vince is implementing these policies is ham-fisted and probably going to depress morale.  This seems like an odd time to go out of your way to restrict talent's earning power and restrict their personal freedom.

I'm fascinated by WWE's business model.  I've encountered large companies in my work that run the business like the owner's personal fiefdom even though they outgrew the "Mom n Pop" phase long ago.  But Vince takes it to an whole another level.  I wish there was a good place to discuss WWE Corporate.

I have misgivings about unionization, but, in this case, it's probably needed.

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Eoae
fixed typos

[Infinit]

2 minutes ago, Eoae said:

 

I have mixed feelings about this.  I'm usually pro-business so I can understand Vince wanting to assert more control over his intellectual property, if for not other reason than to keep talent from embarrassing or promoting competitors of companies WWE has promotional deals with .  And talent did sign contracts giving Vince ownership of their likenesses (WWE already owned the characters, I assume).  I'm in a white collar profession and I have a somewhat similar clause in my contract.  I can't take outside work or make media appearances without clearing it without my employer.  I doubt they're watching my social media, but I'd expect them to discipline or fire me if I said something that reflected badly on them.

 

 

 

These clauses would be much easier swallow of these "Superstars" were employees and not independent contractors. 

[SirSmUgly]

I don't begrudge anyone making money working for a shitlord. Most of us work for shitlords. The world is set up to reward them with lots of capital, after all.

I'd rather Sami take a chunk of Vince's money and redirect it to Syrians in need of support than, IDK, Jake Hager get it so that he can donate it to [IMAGINE WHATEVER UNSAVORY CAUSES A MORON LIKE JAKE HAGER SUPPORTS HERE].

However, I wouldn't let them portray me in a gimmick like Sami apparently does - I think I knew that he was a heel, but I didn't realize that it was a "LOL libz and their causes are stupid and annoying" gimmick. TND was smart about taking control of their own gimmicks, though I have ZERO clue why Woods still works there because he could be making more on his own doing all sorts of assorted projects. 

[Technico Support]

It's funny and sad at the same time.  Over the years, you listen the stuff like Colt's podcast or shoots or The Kevin Steen show, various YouTube things, whatever, and you hear so much from these wrestlers who all seem like really decent guys, and then it feels like they get to the big time and you find yourself wondering how the decent people you learned so much about can work there.  It's like a tragedy where maybe they signed on despite themselves, figuring they could change the culture, and became part of it instead.

 

Kalinga: Yes, we marched on the Federal building. Five hundred of us young brothers, full of outrage.

[sighs]

Kalinga: They were hiring that day. The brothers came with guns; they left with jobs. Oh, yes, whitey is very tricky. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Technico Support

[RIPPA]

I am also bemused because for the longest time (I am not sure if it is still the policy) - talent was required to have Twitter accounts

I remember that the only tweet on Dean Ambrose's twitter was something to the effect of "I only have this so I won't get fined"

[Technico Support]

WWE: We need you all to be on social media

(Wrestlers start making their own money on social media)

WWE: No, not like that

[The Natural]

5 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

I am also bemused because for the longest time (I am not sure if it is still the policy) - talent was required to have Twitter accounts

I remember that the only tweet on Dean Ambrose's twitter was something to the effect of "I only have this so I won't get fined"

That's right. Cool seeing Mox freely use it for AEW/NJPW.

Edited February 16, 2021 by The Natural

[Casey]

8 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

However, I wouldn't let them portray me in a gimmick like Sami apparently does - I think I knew that he was a heel, but I didn't realize that it was a "LOL libz and their causes are stupid and annoying" gimmick.

Daniel Bryan's gimmick as the Planet's Champion in late 2018 was the test run for this.

[The Natural]

13 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

WWE: We need you all to be on social media

(Wrestlers start making their own money on social media)

WWE: No, not like that

This.

Plus:

WWE: Grab the brass ring.

WWE: Don't get yourself over. See: Ryder, Zack and Rusev.

Such double standards.

Edited February 16, 2021 by The Natural

[Craig H]

I don't even want to hate WWE. I want them to improve, I want the TV to be good, I want their business practices to not be so fucking scummy, but none of that is going to happen because despite miserably failing creatively, these huge fucking companies continue giving them billions. I could maybe understand giving them less than a billion, but Fox paid over a billion for a show that pulls in worse ratings than other advertising friendly shows that would be cheaper to air, NBC not only paid somewhere around a billion for Raw, which fucking sucks and continues getting worse, but they paid ANOTHER billion for WWE Network content that will add less than a million subscribers to Peacock.

WHY?!?

I want to shake the shit out of everyone on Wall Street and every one of these corporations for throwing this much money into WWE. And again, I don't want WWE to fail. I'm not against them making money, but I can't see the logic in giving them THIS much money when they continue to have just awful business practices and when their on air entertainment (with the exception of SmackDown I guess) continues getting worse.

[JonnyLaw]

The more WWE tries to exercise this control over their real lives (I.e. CJ Perry’s Twitter instead of Lana’s), the harder time their going to have proving the “WWE Superstars” are actually independent contractors instead of employees.  Of course, someone has to challenge that, which seems unlikely.

Things are going to get interesting if house shows/live tours really go away, because then you’re only paying most people to work five days a month or so (depending on the status of the brand split). Shareholders will start to ask why they’re paying people the same amount of money for only doing about 25% of the work they used to do (ballpark).  At the same time, you’re going to have talent getting bored and looking for side hustles or something else to do, and at some point, someone is going to test them.  At what point is it ok for Tyler Breeze to have a wrestling school, but CJ Perry can’t have a personal Twitter account? If Tyler Breeze is investing in real estate or Pokémon cards (I just listened to his ep of the New Day pod), at what point are those outside businesses too much? They obviously shouldn’t be, but neither should playing video games on Twitch under real names.  The stricter they get, the more arbitrary the lines will get, and you’ll see more people not re-signing.

[Craig H]

The other thing I think about is what if Brodie passes away in, say, March or April. There was such an outpouring of support for Brodie Lee and it's hard to imagine all of these people comfortably reaching out to express their sympathy when they're mandated to do bullshit like this. You shouldn't ever feel like you're going to get in trouble because you go on Twitter to say, "that was a beautiful tribute show." It's just madness and I wonder what happens when there's another tragedy.

[Log]

You guys ever heard of a job being called "golden handcuffs"?  As in, you feel stuck because the pay, etc. is so good, but you're not happy.  You don't want to do it anymore, but you have to because you'd be crazy to give it up.  There are probably a lot of guys/girls who feel that way in WWE.  

[Casey]

I think at some point or another, you have to decide if money is more important than your own mental health and happiness. I can't fathom how difficult it would be to walk away from a "dream job" that pays as much as WWE does/possibly could in a lot of cases, but on the other side of that coin: I also can't imagine putting my money ahead of my happiness.

[Technico Support]

17 minutes ago, Casey said:

Daniel Bryan's gimmick as the Planet's Champion in late 2018 was the test run for this.

Also Retribution, a whiny group of laughably ineffective wannabe militants who were angry about not being handed something by the company, totally not Antifa.

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Technico Support

[DJ Hero Morganti]

Just a random fyi... At my very corporate job.. I would have to get permission to be a streamer if it started pulling in money.  Or really any other outside job.  

That being said. WWE is being all kinds of dumb with their approach to talent and outside income generating activities.

[Eoae]

39 minutes ago, Infinit said:

These clauses would be much easier swallow of these "Superstars" were employees and not independent contractors. 

Agreed, although that goes back to the point of "well, you agreed to this in writing."

I honestly don't understand why talent agrees to some of these policies.  My non-expert opinion is that WWE's definition of "independent contractor" differs greatly from the accepted legal definition.  I can casually read over the criteria for a worker to be classified as an independent contractor instead of an employee and realize that WWE wrestlers may not meet the criteria, so I'm confused as to why a wrestler (or a group of wrestlers) has never taken the issue to court.

(Note: I've moonlighted as an independent contractor and also been responsible for making sure that some of the independent contractors occasionally employed by my firm meet the requirements for contractor status, so I'm not unfamiliar with this issue.)

The simpler, quicker way to force Vince to the bargaining table would be to stage a unified walkout.  At this point, Vince's success is largely based on his ability to provide live programming on a weekly basis.  It seems likely that a mass walkout could force Vince's hand fairly quickly.   Would he really want to go without a tv production for more than a few weeks?  Seems unlikely.  I imagine his tv partners might not be understanding if he couldn't produce new content due to a strike, particularly since ratings aren't great and some execs might like an excuse to void or renegotiate the contracts.  It also seems unlikely NBC Universal or Fox would take Vince's side in the PR dispute given the optics of a company that's more profitable than ever draconian putting restrictions on employees few of us would agree to.

Of course, a walkout would only work if you can get all/most of the employees on the same page.  Which is apparently impossible in this business.