Wrestling Tropes You Love / Hate

[Curt McGirt]

Jericho wrote that he once won a match in Japan with a punch. I wonder what that looked like.

[Log]

On 3/5/2021 at 6:16 PM, J.T. said:

Love:  The Shaw Brothers kung-fu movie trope subverted by pro wrestling where a beaten heel goes to "the Orient" to learn a deadly forbidden move (usually a leglock, or some heel submission move like the Cobra Clutch, Stomach Claw, or the Tongan Death Grip) and returns to the fed with a tenfold increase in skill.   In the movies, it's the hero that goes off to learn the secret technique needed to counter the villain's deathblow thingie.

 

Also, said heel must start taping their fingers up in order to strengthen the hold/strike.  For example, Terry Gordy's thumb.

[odessasteps]

22 hours ago, Morganti said:

The best punch finisher was Regal.

Ron Garvin would like a word. 

[Eoae]

On 3/5/2021 at 9:44 PM, twiztor said:

i thought it was awesome that one year where whoever was the MITB holder straight up said that he would challenge at the following year's WrestleMania. i don't remember how that played out (educated guess: WWE got cold feet and hotshotted something). 

edit: haha, it was Kennedy in 2007. he lost the briefcase 2 months later. not necessarily because of hotshotting, but not too far off.

Wasn't Kennedy hurt before the match and that's why they took the briefcase off him?  Wiki says he got hurt in the match with Edge, but the way i remember it was that Kennedy got hurt beforehand and they booked the match with Edge to get the briefcase off him, thinking he was going to be out the rest of the year.  Am I not remembering this right?  IRRC, the match itself consisted of Edge clocking Kennedy with something before the match began and pinning him a few secs later.  Which doesn't make a lot of sense unless the guy is hurt to begin with and can't take a bump.

[Technico Support]

On 3/5/2021 at 9:44 PM, twiztor said:

edit: haha, it was Kennedy in 2007. he lost the briefcase 2 months later. not necessarily because of hotshotting, but not too far off.

EDIT: @Eoae beat me to it, but here are more details since I remember it pretty clearly.  It wasn't hotshotting.  Kennedy got hurt, told the company he'd torn his tricep from the bone and would be out 5-7 months, so they took the briefcase off him.  Shortly thereafter, it turned out it was just a deep bruise.  Dumbass Kennedy.  Maybe when a career-defining push is on the line, go get an MRI instead of panicking and assuming the worst.

On 3/5/2021 at 8:51 PM, notoriusvig said:

Has Money in the Bank been mentioned yet? This was a novel concept in 2005 but it's been done beyond death. All it does is devalue the belts beyond recognition because they never book the case holder as a viable threat, like ever. The viewer is always left thinking they aren't good enough to hold the belt and they don't deserve it. It was cool when Cena or RVD cashed in ahead of time because I could believe they deserved it if they won.

Yeah, this.  When Edge won and then didn't cash in for almost a year and the fact that he had the briefcase was somewhat forgotten about, he cashed in and won the belt and it was awesome.  It fit his character, too.  Now that everybody does it and MITB is just shorthand for "your ticket to a bullshit title reign," it's well past the expiration date.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Technico Support

[Spontaneous]

As outside interference ever been done in a satisfying way? The best example I can think of is Omega interfering and clearly being distraught during Styles-Ibushi.

Otherwise, it's awful. It's just to prevent clean finishes. 

[eikerir]

5 minutes ago, Spontaneous said:

As outside interference ever been done in a satisfying way? The best example I can think of is Omega interfering and clearly being distraught during Styles-Ibushi.

Otherwise, it's awful. It's just to prevent clean finishes. 

Arn spinebusting Taker at WM 18 is my favourite unexpected interference of all time.

[Spontaneous]

That one is good, it doesn't lead to some crummy finish and looks awesome. 

On a similar vein, the Dudleyz reuniting at Survivor Series 2002 was good. 

Most of the time, it's just awful though. It usually detracts from the match. 

[Log]

I think it can work if it subverts what you think will be the outcome. Like, didn’t Stephanie interfere in the HHH/Bryan match at WM30?  You think, “Here we go. They’re doing the Evolution three-way.  Bryan’s getting screwed again.” But it gets turned around. 
 

I may not be remembering that totally correctly on that particular match, but I still think it can work in that type of situation. 

[BobbyWhioux]

3rd fall of Raven/Richards vs The Pitbulls is a full on schmozz but every bit of it makes narrative sense and ties a bunch of separate plot threads up and down the card into a single interconnected story

[BobbyWhioux]

And in its own way closes the logic hole of “well if they interfered and got away with it why wouldn’t anyone and everyone else with a motive also interfere?”

”you know what? You’re right. Ok here’s the whole locker room running in.”

[BobbyWhioux]

It’s the World War I of wrestling: everybody has an alliance or a grudge that drags them into the conflict

[NikoBaltimore]

5 minutes ago, Log said:

I think it can work if it subverts what you think will be the outcome. Like, didn’t Stephanie interfere in the HHH/Bryan match at WM30?  You think, “Here we go. They’re doing the Evolution three-way.  Bryan’s getting screwed again.” But it gets turned around. 
 

I may not be remembering that totally correctly on that particular match, but I still think it can work in that type of situation. 

That can and sometimes does work though it should be a rare occurrence for that to work IMO.  But even then that scenario can lead to an overbooked mess especially if it's done all the time.  TNA was notorious for having that happen quite a bit to the point that it was their trademark of sorts.

[Spontaneous]

The best examples have been big, good matches. 

I was thinking about how every match at Revolution had interference, a lot that influenced the ending of matches. If we're going for a sports analogy, the benches clear every so often in baseball. But when it's bad, there are suspensions. Why not interfere, you only stand to benefit in wrestling. 

[odessasteps]

Foley's title win? 

[Kev]

1 hour ago, odessasteps said:

Foley's title win? 

Yeah, this was my first thought. Maybe it wasn’t actually that well done considering the ref doesn’t bother to check what’s happening as Austin’s music plays. But you can’t argue with those pops and the joy of the win.

[Spontaneous]

I just really hate non-clean finishes. I get the need for it at times, it just is a buzzkill. 

TNA used to kill me when they tried to pass off Styles beating Angle when Angle's wife interfered as some big moment. I just thought both looked like shit. 

[zendragon]

I don't mind when interference furthers a story or works from a character stand point. But it is something that gets over done especailly those late 90's raws and nitros that Russo bucked where every match had a fuck finish or an intentional DQ or a shmooz just seemingly to do it 

[BobbyWhioux]

one time, during the height of WCW's directive that the broadcasters always talk about the NWO instead of the match in front of them, Zybysko was off on a tangent about the cowardice of the NWO's gang tactics and endless run-ins, and Tony Schiavone interjected by correctly bringing up Larry's own history of employing dirty heel tactics to win. Zybysko responded by pointing out the key difference of at least doing your own dirty work, or as he cleverly phrased it:

"there's a manly way to cheat."

I bring this up because I think it's related here.  I, and I think fans in general, get weary of the run-in as a plot device very quickly, especially when it's overly relied on and the logical questions start to pop up about why what is ostensibly a sporting competition takes no measures to prevent such a flagrantly unsporting occurrence.  Whereas there is much more patience for the "manly way to cheat" since even if foreign object use can get cartoonish, the premise of the athletes on the field/in the ring doing everything possible to stretch the letter of the rule to gain a competitive edge is reasonably "fair" and even expected of real athletes.  5 count to relinquish a hold after a rope break, for instance.  Of course the heel holds on until 4.  Is that any different than taking the play clock/shot clock down to 1 before snapping the ball/shooting? Not really.  And it's a running joke in NFL circles about how anything goes in a pileup over a fumble, so wrestling's intentional low blow (done when/where a ref can't see it) is perfectly plausible.

The run in, on the other hand, is more akin to when teams started trying to get away with those nameless "assistant coaches" with no official title who just stood as close to the edge of the sideline as they could so they could get away with tripping people on kick returns.  Everyone IMMEDIATELY shat themselves and cried foul and raised a stink until nobody dared try get away with that one.  Logically, this should immediately happen the first time there's a run in so as to nip it in the bud.

Though the other problem is everyone's so sick of DQ finishes that nobody wants to see them anymore even when they should happen: i.e. actually catching the foreign object on a guy's ring gear during pre-match instructions and shutting everythign down immediately like they'd do in boxing if they caught you with plaster in, or vaseline on, your gloves, or a pitcher immediately getting ejected and suspended for having an emory board in his pocket (unless he's Gaylord Perry and gets to do that because it's amusing or whatever)

However, that's part of a bigger problem:  Titles Can't Change Hands On A DQ or Countout.  This one might need to die for a while. Especially since the "heel champ takes an intentional DQ to save himself from tapping out" is such an established trope/cynical tactic and the logic behind it is so airtight it's arguably tactical negligence to not have every heel champ immediately do this and keep their belt forever.

[Cleavy]

12 hours ago, Spontaneous said:

As outside interference ever been done in a satisfying way? The best example I can think of is Omega interfering and clearly being distraught during Styles-Ibushi.

Otherwise, it's awful. It's just to prevent clean finishes. 

Hogan interfering in the Savage-DiBiase main event at WM4?

[Shartnado]

1 hour ago, L_W_P said:

On the "Heel champs should get DQd" logic/trope - Why hasn't anyone done this with the MITB?

When Ziggler cashed in Del Rio it was a huge moment. It could have gone very differently if ADR just punted Dolph in the crotch after the ref rang the bell.

THAT is a subversion of expectations!

That would be a great way to do things if you find that you have booked yourself into a corner and the guy with the briefcase definitely isn't someone you'd want to give even a BS reign to! Have them cash in, and get kicked in the groin for an instant DQ, then the champ takes the briefcase and beats the everloving fuck out of the MitB winner so badly that they will not be around for a good while afterwards.

[Spontaneous]

Should have had CM Punk kick Cena in the nuts on Raw 1000. Bail and run off. 

[Wyld Samurai]

On 3/9/2021 at 1:19 PM, odessasteps said:

Ron Garvin would like a word. 

Wasn't his finisher the Garvin Stomp?

[Mister TV]

6 hours ago, Wyld Samurai said:

Wasn't his finisher the Garvin Stomp?

No the Garvin Stomp was a spot to pop the crowd, his finisher was the punch followed by sitting on opponents chest with crotch in their face for the pin. 

[cwoy2j]

On 3/13/2021 at 5:55 PM, Mister TV said:

No the Garvin Stomp was a spot to pop the crowd, his finisher was the punch followed by sitting on opponents chest with crotch in their face for the pin. 

While David Crockett breathed heavily and said, "look at him Tony, just look at him. Dominating the other man. Look at him."