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JANUARY 2021 Discussion of Wrestling


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16 hours ago, Infinit said:

I wonder if Fox will push back on Peacock being heavily promoted on their network. And if they do, how Vince & Co will handle it.

Thinly-veiled corporate exec heel gimmick incoming!

Or they hire AR Fox and job him to Dalton Castle on every show.

12 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Except for the fact the performer contracts are still heavily skewed towards the majority of your income is based off of house show bonuses. WWE did away with PPV bonuses when the network started. They took away third party platforms last year. They are now scrapping house shows completely. Merch bonuses is legitimately the only source of income now for the performers, outside of the downside guarantee. Which kind of makes downside guarantees obsolete and carny as fuck. Hey pal take a lower salary here but you'll make it up in bonuses if you do well. (But we're gonna take away 75% of the bonus opportunities so actually you'll pretty much just make your downside. Haha. Capitalism pal, gotta love it.).

Hearing old talent relations guys like JR discuss house show payouts was always very carny and disgusting.  Essentially, the promotion got the biggets cut, then the main eventers got a set percentage of what was left, and the rest of the guys on the card got whatever Ross figured they should get based on gut feeling and some arcane, carny pro wrestling math taught to him by semi-literate promoters on his way up.

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4 hours ago, The Natural said:

Taken from f4wonline.com:

In an interview with Sportskeeda, McIntyre said a cinematic match against “The Fiend” Bray Wyatt for the WWE Championship isn’t something he’s interested in right now: “Maybe eventually, not right now. I'm WWE Champion and I think, in fact I know, like the way I've been building the title, it's about the honor and respect and about wrestling. And there's room on the show for everything, a little bit something for everybody, different characters. It'd be boring if everyone was the same and The Fiend's unique character is so incredible, so out there, but I don't think that's something I think I want to mix the WWE title with. Like that's for, you know that portion of the audience and for me as a fan to watch and be blown away by the spectacle. But when it comes to the WWE Championship, I expect it to be in a wrestling match. You know, like man-on-man, fighting over the title with respect and honor. And that's what I'm all about, that's how I've tried to represent the title and that's how I think it should be represented. Not in a comedic fashion or an outlanding fashion, but a realistic wrestling environment."

Well said, Drew McIntyre.

Man, I hope he doesn't get in trouble for saying "wrestling" so often!

Edited by El Gran Gordi
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4 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Hearing old talent relations guys like JR discuss house show payouts was always very carny and disgusting.  Essentially, the promotion got the biggets cut, then the main eventers got a set percentage of what was left, and the rest of the guys on the card got whatever Ross figured they should get based on gut feeling and some arcane, carny pro wrestling math taught to him by semi-literate promoters on his way up.

Yeah carny math indeed lol. JR's first territory he drove around the promoter everywhere because he was blind. Forget the promoter's name. Leo McGirk maybe? But even carny math is better than no math... If you're THE GUY like Stone Cold or Hogan, let's say you get 5k a night as your bonus. (The amounts varied on the draw, who else was booked ect). But for the sake of easy math: 5k x 4 night a week (leaving one night as a tv night where I don't think they did bonuses) = 20k a week x 52... you're pulling in a bonus of $1,040,000. A million dollars on top of your salary for the major top stars.

 

Even if you're the lowest guy on the card you're getting at least 200 a night as your bonus. 200 x 4 = 800 a week x 52... even the lowest of the low card dudes where pulling in a bonus of $41,000 a year on top of their salary. So depending on where you were on the card, how often you worked, how much the office like you... you're getting between $40,000 - $1,000,000 extra a year on top of your salary. And that's how they operated for almost 40 years.

 

Now, it's just gone. You get your downside and no house show bonus. No ppv bonus. No third party money. You get salary, merch sales cut, and a bonus if you make one of the video games. But in recent year's they've cut the video game bonus significantly as well. The whole pay structure of the talent keeps getting cut. It's pretty ridiculous when you think about it. They've singed multiple billion dollar deals in the last 18 months. I'd love to see what the revenue share is in WWE vs NFL or UFC or NBA. Them signing 500 people and trying to open up territories all over the world surely add to the total talent budget, but the overall slice any one person gets has got to be tiny compared to the company's profits.

 

And that's before we even start on how every single person on any single episode of any single television show that's shown on Peacock gets royalties, EXCEPT for professional wrestlers appearing in all that WWE content they just purchased now. It sucks that Andrew Yang was apparently just blowing smoke a few months ago. Because wrestlers need a union / collective bargaining so very badly.

Edited by NoFistsJustFlips
typos
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8 hours ago, The Natural said:

Taken from f4wonline.com:

In an interview with Sportskeeda, McIntyre said a cinematic match against “The Fiend” Bray Wyatt for the WWE Championship isn’t something he’s interested in right now: “Maybe eventually, not right now. I'm WWE Champion and I think, in fact I know, like the way I've been building the title, it's about the honor and respect and about wrestling. And there's room on the show for everything, a little bit something for everybody, different characters. It'd be boring if everyone was the same and The Fiend's unique character is so incredible, so out there, but I don't think that's something I think I want to mix the WWE title with. Like that's for, you know that portion of the audience and for me as a fan to watch and be blown away by the spectacle. But when it comes to the WWE Championship, I expect it to be in a wrestling match. You know, like man-on-man, fighting over the title with respect and honor. And that's what I'm all about, that's how I've tried to represent the title and that's how I think it should be represented. Not in a comedic fashion or an outlanding fashion, but a realistic wrestling environment."

Well said, Drew McIntyre.

I wonder if this what they are meaning when NEWZ sites are saying that something "scary" will happen in the finish.   "Scary" in some massive hocus pocus bullshit that will look dumb to make Bray or the Fiend the winner 

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6 hours ago, The Natural said:

So funny. CHAOS losing it.

They're always cracking each other up on the "YTR produced" DVDs and the like. Ishii in particular is basically 180 degrees from his in-ring persona. 

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@NoFistsJustFlipsyep, it's almost like wrestling needs to move on from the carny days and actually pay wrestlers like athletes or actors.  But WWE is run by a guy who'd have his own talent work TV tapings for free in the 80s because "you're getting exposure on my TV, pal!" so fat chance of that.

Meltzer has addressed the revenue share percentage comparing wrestling and MMA to other sports.  I can't remember the numbers but I know it was absolutely shameful.  I just looked it up and the NFL shares around 47% of their revenue with the players.  WWE was definitely under 10% and maybe closer to 5, I want to say.

Edited by Technico Support
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5 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

  But WWE is run by a guy who'd have his own talent work TV tapings for free in the 80s because "you're getting exposure on my TV, pal!" so fat chance of that.

 

I'm pretty sure every territory's TV worked that way.

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7 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Meltzer has addressed the revenue share percentage comparing wrestling and MMA to other sports.  I can't remember the numbers but I know it was absolutely shameful.  I just looked it up and the NFL shares around 47% of their revenue with the players.  WWE was definitely under 10% and maybe closer to 5, I want to say.

Well god damn pal those ferraris don't pay for themselves you know!

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11 minutes ago, Infinit said:

I'm pretty sure every territory's TV worked that way.

Well sure, but what I mean is when you have a company still alive today that's run by a guy that's from the old school, we can't expect any kind of wrestler-friendly labor changes.

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13 hours ago, mattdangerously said:

Winnie Cooper > Topanga > Kelly Kapowski

Facts.  Not even looking to see if this has already been stated by others.

F A C T S

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20 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Do we know how the "woke company" pays workers for TV work? I presume the EVPs are salaried, so they might be exempt, but wonder about the rest of the crew and/or job guys on the youtube shoe. 

I mean I know they do actually pay them, as a big deal was being made over how many indy guys were getting a payday from AEW during the pandemic.  But have have no idea what that payscale looks like.  Aside from it likely being better than a hot dog and a handshake, no idea.

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If they insist on putting the Fiend back into title contention--first of all, why? Second, McIntyre is most likely the one who'll have to deal with it. 

 

I wish I could remember who said it so I could give them proper credit. But the divide between the haves and the have nots in wrestling will continue to widen, especially with how COVID has altered the landscape. Not just between companies and wrestlers, but also in the locker room. Top stars hire agents to negotiate their contracts. They can ask for more--bigger guarantees, travel accommodations, private tour bus, a bigger slice of their merch money, more time off. A major promoter will work to keep top talent relatively happy. If someone is on that level, they'll be taken care of.

There have always been levels, of course. But even with a super-popular top star, there were a few guys/girls just underneath them who felt special. It's not much like that anymore, and partly by design. If only a select few are unique across wrestling, then the 'normals' don't have any power. That's not a specific problem to wrestling, but how wrestling is constructed showcases it more.

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So when WWE goes back to large live attendance shows for the first time, who is going to be first through the curtain to get the big Welcome Back pop? 

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5 minutes ago, AxB said:

So when WWE goes back to large live attendance shows for the first time, who is going to be first through the curtain to get the big Welcome Back pop? 

Sheamus. It's time to finally put some effort into getting him over as one of the faces of the company.

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12 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Yeah carny math indeed lol. JR's first territory he drove around the promoter everywhere because he was blind. Forget the promoter's name. Leo McGirk maybe? But even carny math is better than no math... If you're THE GUY like Stone Cold or Hogan, let's say you get 5k a night as your bonus. (The amounts varied on the draw, who else was booked ect). But for the sake of easy math: 5k x 4 night a week (leaving one night as a tv night where I don't think they did bonuses) = 20k a week x 52... you're pulling in a bonus of $1,040,000. A million dollars on top of your salary for the major top stars

Now, it's just gone. You get your downside and no house show bonus. No ppv bonus. No third party money. You get salary, merch sales cut, and a bonus if you make one of the video games. But in recent year's they've cut the video game bonus significantly as well. The whole pay structure of the talent keeps getting cut. It's pretty ridiculous when you think about it. They've singed multiple billion dollar deals in the last 18 months. I'd love to see what the revenue share is in WWE vs NFL or UFC or NBA. Them signing 500 people and trying to open up territories all over the world surely add to the total talent budget, but the overall slice any one person gets has got to be tiny compared to the company's profits.

 

10 hours ago, Technico Support said:

@NoFistsJustFlipsyep, it's almost like wrestling needs to move on from the carny days and actually pay wrestlers like athletes or actors.  But WWE is run by a guy who'd have his own talent work TV tapings for free in the 80s because "you're getting exposure on my TV, pal!" so fat chance of that.

Meltzer has addressed the revenue share percentage comparing wrestling and MMA to other sports.  I can't remember the numbers but I know it was absolutely shameful.  I just looked it up and the NFL shares around 47% of their revenue with the players.  WWE was definitely under 10% and maybe closer to 5, I want to say.

Yeah, FWIW JR started out with Leroy McGuirk. It also led to this awesome photo of him and another AEW on screen talent as referees.

Anyway, WWE and UFC are in the same boat when it comes to lack of revenue sharing which is why Meltzer has made the argument WWE is also ripe for a class action lawsuit. However, I would argue that WWE is in a more I guess precarious position than what UFC was in late 2014 when they had the class action lawsuit launched against them originally that's only just about to go to trial in 2021.

UFC/Zuffa had a disastrous 2014 from a marquee fight perspective. They had numerous cancelled main events and just had to throw some shit together throughout the entire year. You could see the signs coming in 2012 and 2013 that 2014 and going forward would be extremely tough. The ratings for the Fox shows (and The Ultimate Fighter) plateaued fairly quickly, and they had only signed that deal with Fox in 2011. They lost Brock to WWE in 2012, Jon Jones got arrested in May 2012 and his life began to kinda unravel, GSP retired in late 2013 who was their other big draw, and Anderson Silva who was a pretty decent draw himself lost and then got a significant injury that would sideline him for at least a year or more. The buyrates began to tank. The UFC looked like the Titanic about going to go down. The cherry on top on their shit sundae was the class action lawsuit in 2014, which only sprung up because a video game likeness dispute from 2008. The genesis of the lawsuit was based on stuff when UFC was white hot from 2005-2010. It just looked like a bunch of fighters taking their pound of flesh from an organization and their parent company that was operating on fumes. Then, Ronda Rousey happened. Then, Conor McGregor happened. They had two superstars who were drawing from two completely different demos and fanbases which in its totality elevated their viewing audience. Jon Jones vs. Daniel Cormier I happened and made UFC seem kinda cool again. They finally got pro MMA legalized in New York state after years and years of unsuccessful lobbying, meaning they could do huge shows at Madison Square Garden and Barclays Center. ESPN started to increase and ramp up their coverage of UFC. They had some stuff go wrong still, but the stuff that went right went REALLY right. This leads to the 4 billion dollar sale in 2016, some of the blue chip sponsorship deals they were able to sign, and finally the big TV contracts they signed with Disney and ESPN in 2018. The UFC went from the pit of despair to a hugely successful organization in two years to a goddamn juggernaut two years after that.

Yet, the class action lawsuit and the damages being sought cover the time period from when the UFC was hot the first go around (I think the latest date from the documents in discovery is 2017) and not now. The UFC right now is getting money for the equivalent of 500,000 PPV buys on every PPV show no matter if very few buy the PPV or not. It doesn't matter because they're going to make a boatload of cash from the show regardless. That's simply unheard of. So if folks think the percentage of money the UFC was sharing with fighters years ago was paltry, what do people think that percentage is now? As Meltzer stated on a recent WOR show, the next time UFC signs a new TV deal, the amount of money UFC will be making is going to be fucking absurd more than it is now. 

I think because WWE is taking off and their talent knows how much WWE has taken off, they're more likely to get hit in the crossfire of what's going with UFC. Due to their newfound success, the UFC has been more (and not less) emboldened with their business tactics. It also doesn't help that the new ownership (what use to be William Morris Endeavor) is much better at hiding or even sanitizing stuff that would be seen as egregious on the behalf of their fighters. The UFC just signed an apparel deal with Venum after a five and a half year deal with Reebok. They wasn't any news of any pay tiers or any breakdown of how the fighters would be compensated. The announcement just happened, and being rolled out THIS April. The whole reason why the Reebok deal was lambasted in 2015 is they came with that info/news out of the gate, and people scoffed at how low the amount of money the fighters would get versus the potential amount they could make off of different sponsors. The Venum deal isn't getting scrutinized because they're purposely not sharing that information. BTW, they still haven't signed a new footwear provider so the UFC could make even MORE money off that. I expect them to be not upfront with that either.

If you're a performer for WWE or fighter in the UFC, it's not going to get better. They're not going to be more generous out of the kindness of their heart. 

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3 hours ago, hammerva said:

I wonder if this what they are meaning when NEWZ sites are saying that something "scary" will happen in the finish.   "Scary" in some massive hocus pocus bullshit that will look dumb to make Bray or the Fiend the winner 

I wouldn't be surprised if The Fiend, Bray Wyatt returns and wins the Men's Royal Rumble match. That would be a big mistake from someone who likes The Fiend with the exception of the current Alexa Bliss pairing for how it came about.

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1 hour ago, AxB said:

So when WWE goes back to large live attendance shows for the first time, who is going to be first through the curtain to get the big Welcome Back pop? 

Hunter, Stephanie and Vince will be the first to come down to the ring and promise you that everything's going to be better from now on.

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16 minutes ago, D.Z said:

WWE may only do live crowd shows for PPVS only,  keep the Thunderdome for Raw and SD.

They will have to find another home when baseball season starts. 

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Yeah, it's going to be hard to find a suitable arena to set up residency, especially if things open up again.  And touring the Thunderdome isn't very efficient financially.  I think WWE goes back to doing Raw, Smackdown and PPVs with live crowds with a limited amount of house shows in bigger markets where they don't lose money.

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