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JANUARY 2021 Discussion of Wrestling


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This isn't going to be a great analogy because I'm not a huge sports guy anymore and this could be wrong, but I'd argue a lot of the changes in Football or Basketball or Baseball games over the last 30 years are (in science terms) more physical changes. Different strategies. Different ways to make up teams. Different rules. Different ways for athletes to train. The games are still basically the same. The reactions are the same. A lot of the incentives are the same.

With wrestling, it's completely different, a chemical change. The goal of a pro-wrestling match in 1985 is almost completely different than today and that drives the fan reactions which drives the way the match is wrestled and so on. The incentives are different. The audience is looking for different things and is, thus, catered to differently. The ways of drawing money are completely different. It's not necessarily better or worse (though obviously I have my own opinions there) but it's different. And it's a cycle so it feeds on itself as it becomes more different and further and further away from the sort of suspension of disbelief (wilful or not) that drove everything decades ago.

It's tricky, because one element of wrestling and watching wrestling (though not the only element) is the unknown, not knowing who will win and who will lose and what the outcome is going to be and how it fits into the ongoing story, etc. That's one reason why I'm so into new footage, because I come into those matches not knowing the outcome a lot of times. There's also the social element. It's easier to follow something if a lot of people are following it with you and it feels like it matters to your every day social interactions. So I get why people are still into things. And i know plenty of people who think the quality of matches on WWE PPVs right now is still quite good, even if there are problems with the TV etc.

But the genie is out of the bottle and it can never come back.

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Not that I disagree with you or Mr. From The Heavens at all, because I for sure agree, but least it's like three cuts instead of 300. Plus, they mix it up with jib shots, the overhead shot, and the corner post cam, so it's visually different at times. Not sure what it is really, but for some reason it just doesn't bother me as much as it did when I watched WWE (and to a lesser extent, TNA)

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I agree it's not the most egregious example, but I still think it sucks.

As wrestling has moved from mostly a live medium to mostly a filmed medium they've had to develop a new visual language, which is understandable and mostly fine.  But using, like, CW teen action shows a model instead of actual live sports really blows.

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Mike Bennett: Release me, fed.

Fed releases him a few months later.

Mike Bennett after getting released: Fed bad for releasing me.

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7 hours ago, Zimbra said:

I agree it's not the most egregious example, but I still think it sucks.

As wrestling has moved from mostly a live medium to mostly a filmed medium they've had to develop a new visual language, which is understandable and mostly fine.  But using, like, CW teen action shows a model instead of actual live sports really blows.

Almost all American entertainment has an inferiority complex in regards to Hollywood. The top comments of every song on youtube are just people telling you what movie or show they heard it in. AAA video games scramble against better creative impulses so they can be more "cinematic". Pro wrestling's turn toward the cinematic is an understandable symptom of the post-kayfabe world we live in, but it doesn't always serve the artform.

Hollywood movies cut on punches because nobody's really punching each other. Wrestlers do, or at least do so in a way meant to make a live crowd buy it. All you have to do is tape wrestlers wrestling. You don't have to cover for the fact that Chris Pratt is fake-punching a guy in a mo-cap suit.They're doing one-take theater in the round, mainly improvised, and usually being burned on all sides by the audience. I think about that Stallone quote all the time. I don't think we realize how good even completely average wrestlers are at this stuff and I wish the people producing would trust them more.

Edited by John E. Dynamite
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6 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said:

Almost all American entertainment has an inferiority complex in regards to Hollywood. The top comments of every song on youtube are just people telling you what movie or show they heard it in. AAA video games scramble against better creative impulses so they can be more "cinematic". Pro wrestling's turn toward the cinematic is an understandable symptom of the post-kayfabe world we live in, but it doesn't always serve the artform.

Hollywood movies cut on punches because nobody's really punching each other. Wrestlers do, or at least do so in a way meant to make a live crowd buy it. All you have to do is tape wrestlers wrestling. You don't have to cover for the fact that Chris Pratt is fake-punching a guy in a mo-cap suit.They're doing one-take theater in the round, mainly improvised, and usually being burned on all sides by the audience. I think about that Stallone quote all the time. I don't think we realize how good even completely average wrestlers are at this stuff and I wish the people producing would trust them more.

This reminds me that back in the early 90's I used to get a lot of shit from my fellow class-mates for being a wrestling fan. One of them said that "They have to go an acting school before they are allowed to start wrestling". Of course I was like "Shut up, you meanie! They go to a WRESTLING school!"

All in all, the dude wasn't exactly wrong when he said it, but maybe some actors could actually take some pointers from wrestlers, especially if they are going to perform on a stage. It's cool that Stallone seems to get it, but I'm sure he knows about not getting the proper respect he deserves, too!

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7 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

I should slap myself for forgetting Nikki. Dammit.

And also hope that Nikki doesn't read this board and decide to do the slapping herself! I bet she has a mean slap, but it looks like she takes being forgotten pretty well, so you may be in the clear, anyway!

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That is one thing AEW can improve on - Camera cuts. Not just the above in the middle of moves, but also I find a lot of the time they miss the crucial shot. This was apparent in the recent Abadon Shida match where Abadon was doing some terrifying facial expression and they just missed it by a second or cut away before it fully developed. They also missed the best angle when she did the Bray Wyatt/Exorcist bridge. As she is more character than wrestling ability at the moment, it's crucial they capture her highlights. I'm sure they will improve with time, but it can be frustrating.

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From the most recent WON

Quote

Damien Priest was at one point scheduled to debut on the 1/1 Smackdown show. He was going to be put together with Owens to feud with Reigns & Uso. Owens felt the story made no sense because the pitch was for Owens to bring him in like he was his best friend backing him up, and Owens felt that Priest’s character makes no sense to Owens’ character to be a best friend. Owens apparently said that they should redo it where WWE officials book Priest as his tag team partner for his benefit because he keeps getting beaten up by Reigns & Uso and that WWE was doing it to protect him. But that didn’t work out and Reigns felt it wasn’t the time to introduce a new person and after that, it was pretty much agreed by both Reigns and Owens that it wasn’t the right time to introduce a random person to the main event mix that didn’t seem to fit. As of right now, and this could change, Priest is scheduled for the Raw roster and to debut at the end of the month

 

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I'm not going to quote myself, but what I was trying to say at the top of the page and didn't quite get to, is that because of the change in incentive structure, it's not just that pro wrestling has changed or modernized since the mid 80s, or even that it's now a different genre within the medium. It's that it's a different medium.

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On 1/6/2021 at 7:24 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I thought the hate watching of WWE has mostly died around here. I notice the Raw and Smackdown threads aren't as long as they used to be. I always thought giving up WWE would be difficult, but was surprised how easy it was. I watched bits and pieces of last week's Raw, but that was only to catch any Brodie Lee tributes. Other than that, I couldn't force myself to sit through a WWE show at this point.

The most I'll do is flip on Raw on my other monitor if it's a Monday and I'm playing games. I usually wind up turning it back off. I don't think I've watched a full episode of SmackDown in forever and the only stuff I find interesting there is the Roman stuff. NXT I'm off and on with. I also cancelled my Network subscription awhile ago and can't think of the last PPV I watched.

So most of the stuff I see from WWE is from YouTube or if I see something ridiculous mentioned on here and then I pull it up on YTTV to see if it was that ridiculous. WWE just isn't remotely fun or good.

I'm basically down to watching AEW and NJPW. I tried watching Impact and it's just too low rent looking. I've had the same problem with ROH for a long time, but I'll watch it every once in awhile.

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Loved Molly Holly since I first saw her as a 14 year old in WCW (1999) as Miss Madness/Mona. Good knowing that she's a sweetheart as a person outside of wrestling. Molly Holly for the WWE Hall of Fame 2021. Molly should be in already as should Christian and Cyndi Lauper. So wrong.

Edited by The Natural
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On 1/4/2021 at 10:55 PM, AxB said:
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NSFW

That's hilarious.  YEARS ago, I photoshopped that DVD cover with dick-heads just barely peaking out on the top of the banner.  It was a different time back then here on the board.  ?

On 1/5/2021 at 9:28 AM, Casey said:

To be fair - they also had another documentary series about how awesome and diverse pro wrestling is and can be (The Wrestlers, hosted by Fucked Up's Damian Abraham).

SUCH a great show.  I prefer it to "Dark Side of the Ring" and hope it comes back.

On 1/6/2021 at 7:59 PM, Wyld Samurai said:

I dont think I've seen a WWE live event since a random 2018 ppv.

I haven't watched WWE since January 2017 when the McMahons were photographed in the Oval Office smiling like a bunch of bumpkins who'd finally made it to the big city.  Not that those things are related, no sir.

18 hours ago, odessasteps said:

I think it was Stallone on the set on Paradise Alley who put over wrestlers as doing stuff that stuntmen did but live and in one take. 

Not really true with "cinematic matches." 

I read the same story the other day but it was said to have happened during the filming of Rocky 3, which sounds right as post-Rocky Stallone at the height of his fame and power dressing down the crew for making fun of a wrestler makes more sense than Paradise Alley Stallone fresh off that porno having the power to give anyone a hard time.

Edited by Technico Support
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On the subject on wrestling we watch. For me it's WWE, NJPW and AEW. Can't remember the last time I watched a WWE TV show from beginning to end. I just seek out matches of my favourites and from WOM here. I'm thankful for AEW and NJPW. WWE is so frustrating with such a loaded talented roster having to fight uphill against bad and stale booking. That's not good shit, pal.

Edited by The Natural
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