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AEW Dynamite - 12/23/2020


Dolfan in NYC

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1 hour ago, HumanChessgame said:

Was there a botch at the end of the Pac/Butcher match? After Pac kicked out of the powerbomb Butcher still had him down and at his mercy, yet he just stood around awkwardly? Also, who is supposed to be the face in that Kingston and friends vs Death Triangle angle?

I assumed they couldn't go home until Archer came out to neutralize Kingston. Seemed like he missed his cue by 10-20 seconds.

EDIT: Oh, and Death Triangle are definitely faces. Look at Fenix going up against uber-heel Omega next week. And Kingston making excuses for post-match attacks. I guess at this point Archer is de facto face, depending on how much/when he gets into it with PAC.

Edited by Dog
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2 hours ago, Shartnado said:

For Curt: it was Darren Young who looked a lot like Cena at least when clean shaven!

As far as Jericho and Shamrock go, yeah Ken looks great, but the amount of stuff he needs to put into his system in order to look like that is likely as bad for him as the stuff Jericho puts into his system is!

Beside the point, but it's a shame we never did get to see the Shamrock -Jericho match (es) that were supposed to be Y2J's first feud in the WWF, back in '99. I just watched Unforgiven '99 last week and was reminded of the fact. And even more now, seeing their pics side by side .

 

I remember a Jericho-Shamrock match, I don't remember it being particularly good.

 

I think some of the  AEW fans have turned on Jericho- I suspect politics might be the reason.  Folks stopped being so forgiving of his flaws/bullshit when he was outed as a Trump donor.   This is why you're not really seeing a lot of folks defending Jericho right now.  This is why I think the fans never warmed up to Hager either- I think being a Republican gets you a decent amount of we don't want you heat from a portion of the AEW fanbase (though perhaps less so in-person with the COVID-era crowds, the folks going to AEW events despite a pandemic and folks who don't care about COVID might have some link), so I suspect it's the online fans who are more upset.

 

Jericho's still providing value to AEW, but I do think his actions over the past year or so outside the ring have hurt him.

 

 

 

Edited by alstein
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AEW was going after NBA fans. What's being said by NBA fans is relevant in that moment, even if they're on Twitter. Do they represent every NBA fan? Obviously not. But NBA Twitter was vocal. It's the cross-section we have.

Last night was an unfiltered first impression for them. When they ask why Jericho is still wrestling and is AEW a bootleg copy of WWE, that's not good.

Whether one thinks they're bumping their gums for self entertainment is fair. But in that timeframe, Jericho and by extension AEW, was found lacking by someone outside the usual wrestling confines.

As far as politics, it goes beyond being Republican. A lot of wrestlers are GOP. But Jericho had 45 Jr on his show, holds super-spreader concerts, went All Lives Matter online. It's too much to ignore for many. Hager has long had the air of being a dunce. His POV just reinforces what many already thought of him. Ryker has the same stench.

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I suspect they're calling AEW a bootleg WWE because WWE = wrestling to a lot of people. I don't think it's a damning statement about AEW, but it's the unfortunate reality. I work with a guy who knows I like wrestling, and I told him I only watch AEW on TV, and he said "Is that RAW?". Non-fans don't really know anything about all of the different brands and promotions and shit. For decades, the only game in town has been one company, so by default wrestling IS/was WWE to a lot of people.

But yeah everything else I agree with. It's getting harder for me to ignore how fucking stupid people like Jericho and Hager are. It got to a point where I couldn't ignore Kanye West's political leanings anymore, despite him being my favorite hip-hop artist ever. Now I can hardly listen to his music. It sucks, but that's how it goes sometimes.

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15 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

AEW was going after NBA fans. What's being said by NBA fans is relevant in that moment, even if they're on Twitter. Do they represent every NBA fan? Obviously not. But NBA Twitter was vocal. It's the cross-section we have.

It's also not a cross section that's going to absorb something new. There is an NBA before the fans part. They got what they wanted in a product they trust. Where are the "NBA but looking for something entirely new" fans?

19 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Last night was an unfiltered first impression for them.

Not really because they just went like right a PLAYOFF game just a few months ago IIRC. Not a season opener. Not just some game. A PLAYOFF GAME. I didn't hear the sky was falling after that.

21 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

When they ask why Jericho is still wrestling and is AEW a bootleg copy of WWE, that's not good.

Whether one thinks they're bumping their gums for self entertainment is fair. But in that timeframe, Jericho and by extension AEW, was found lacking by someone outside the usual wrestling confines.

Everything is bootleg WWE. It's the brand name. The problem also is WWE is also bootleg WWE. No one gives a fuck because WWE fans will watch WWE, and AEW fans will watch AEW. The issue is folks have a severe hard on for growing the audience that AEW has only had for what.... a year and some change? Do they have like some deadline I don't know about where if they don't reach 1.5 million avg they have to start over like a Nintendo game? It's going to take AWHILE. If they are still at this point 3-4 hell five years from now, all this would be valid. But's it not valid cause the wrestling world doesn't reset every 365 days. Or 30 days or 60 days. They are in this for the long run. You better strap in cause it's going be a long ride.

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As far as politics, it goes beyond being Republican. A lot of wrestlers are GOP. But Jericho had 45 Jr on his show, holds super-spreader concerts, went All Lives Matter online. It's too much to ignore for many. Hager has long had the air of being a dunce. His POV just reinforces what many already thought of him. Ryker has the same stench.

 

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But yeah everything else I agree with. It's getting harder for me to ignore how fucking stupid people like Jericho and Hager are. It got to a point where I couldn't ignore Kanye West's political leanings anymore, despite him being my favorite hip-hop artist ever. Now I can hardly listen to his music. It sucks, but that's how it goes sometimes.

It's hilarious to me people are so bothered by this. I got my own problems with Colby Covington and Jorge Masvidal etc, but at the same time, I don't follow what they do. You know how I know what folks do in pro wrestling? You guys repost here in an angry rage. Otherwise, I would have NO CLUE what these people are up to. The Ryker thing is different cause that was actual NEWS news on F4WOnline. I don't look at what they do on social media.

Moreover, I fail to see the connection between hardcore wrestling fans being mad at people and casual folks roasting people as they did not turn the channel after the game is over. This sounds to me like venting.

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I'm not gonna put too much value into a few tweets from NBA fans. Trolls are gonna troll lol. I'm sure if one were to look at other tweets of the people who were screenshotted you wouldn't find substance. I looked up 3 of them and they have about 3k followers total. These people aren't tastemakers or influencers ?

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The WWE = American wrestling point is fair. I'll be curious to see if AEW can go beyond that.

The Sturgis concerts made major news sites and I'm pretty sure Fozzy was at least mentioned. TIJ is a well-known wrestling podcast. As a wrestling fan, it's hard to miss when he has the son of a sitting president on as a guest. No one had to look hard for it. I don't think anyone here is frothing at the mouth over it. 

I have no ill will toward AEW. I don't think they're as great as some make them out to be, but I've been generally entertained by Dynamite. I thought last night was an interesting look into what may be a non-wrestling perception, not just for AEW, but wrestling as a whole. The path back to a more mainstream spot is a long one. If there's a path at all. 

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It's important to remember that, even during the absolute peak of WCW's dominance in the Monday Night Wars, to a whole lot of mainstream press, WWF was still wrestling. They chipped away at that some during the salad days, but they never fully got to where, say, local sportscasters making a joke about a fight said "World Championship Wrestling.'

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3 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

The Sturgis concerts made major news sites and I'm pretty sure Fozzy was at least mentioned.

To add to this and make it a more recent news story - multiple music sites have ran stories in the past week about Steel Panther running concerts in Florida to packed crowds with no social distancing or masks. Jericho guested on a song during the concert, and was mentioned. Joey Fatone from NSYNC (wtf?) did a song with them too.

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58 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

AEW was going after NBA fans. What's being said by NBA fans is relevant in that moment, even if they're on Twitter. Do they represent every NBA fan? Obviously not. But NBA Twitter was vocal. It's the cross-section we have.

Last night was an unfiltered first impression for them. When they ask why Jericho is still wrestling and is AEW a bootleg copy of WWE, that's not good.

Whether one thinks they're bumping their gums for self entertainment is fair. But in that timeframe, Jericho and by extension AEW, was found lacking by someone outside the usual wrestling confines.

As far as politics, it goes beyond being Republican. A lot of wrestlers are GOP. But Jericho had 45 Jr on his show, holds super-spreader concerts, went All Lives Matter online. It's too much to ignore for many. Hager has long had the air of being a dunce. His POV just reinforces what many already thought of him. Ryker has the same stench.

Let’s be real: It wasn’t a full court press for NBA fans. It started after 10 on the East Coast and it was a taped show in which nothing big happened and was a transition show to their big shows.

Anything that isn’t the WWE will be perceived that way because the WWE had a monopoly for 20+ years. Part of AEW’s challenge is defeating that perception. And that’s why guys like Marko Stunt and Joey Janela should never be featured on Dynamite.

But you’re reading way too much into Twitter. Most of the people watching the game don’t use Twitter, and something like 10% of Twitter users create 95% of the content, so it’s likely that very few of the NBA viewers that have Twitter accounts were even tweeting.

It doesn’t seem like it had an impact on ratings. AEW still beat NXT despite the late start. We'll see next week if they were able to convert any of the NBA fans.

And it’s just a matter of publicly expressing opinions contrary to the left that is the issue in the current climate. 
 

Jericho has said multiple times that he’s not politically sophisticated and also had Andrew Yang on his podcast. I don’t know if he donated to Trump but if he did I’d guess it was due to a belief that he’d open things up sooner than Biden rather than any significant political convictions. And Ryker just tweeted that he supported the President. The stench? LOL

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2 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

The Sturgis concerts made major news sites and I'm pretty sure Fozzy was at least mentioned. 

TBH I usually I have only sports and certain other stuff on my newsfeed, but anytime that comes up, I usually designate stuff like as WHITE PEOPLE ARE CRAZY. I didn't know Fozzy was there until I saw it here.

5 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

TIJ is a well-known wrestling podcast. As a wrestling fan, it's hard to miss when he has the son of a sitting president on as a guest. No one had to look hard for it.

I know he has a well known podcast but if it isn't like the anniversary of the Montreal Screwjob, Chris Benoit, or the anniversary of something or other that I find really insightful about pro wrestling, I don't personally listen to it. Judging by the reactions, maybe folks should also go that route.

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I don't think anyone here is frothing at the mouth over it. 

I just find it very intriguing that people want AEW to grow their fanbase, when the folks that usually become crossover pop stars themselves are polarizing. There is probably going come a time where AEW does find or build a huge superstar or two and one if both are bigger shit heels than Chris Jericho. Are we gonna be fine with that just cause now they get to be neck-to-neck with the evil corporation in Stamford? When they signed Jericho, Hager, and anyone else people have a problem with, they did it because that was the cost of doing business. I don't expect that to change. Once you signed with TNT, you're in the belly of the beast now. You don't sign a man with spinal stenosis at age 61 cause you're being charitable. I'm surprised that people are still trying to come to grips with all this.

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8 hours ago, Peck said:

Tully better be careful or he's going turn at least himself babyface because I don't think there's a soul on this earth except for the Stunt family who don't want to see Blanchard kick Marko's ass.

I love Abadon but the neck-biting angle is atrocious. It was terrible when Shayna did it a few months back and it's terrible here. It's SO unrealistic and over-the-top that it completely takes me out of it. Do you think Aubrey would just stand there and look at a person who just had a chunk taken out of the side of their neck in real life? And Shida? She'd be screaming and rolling around asking for help. Medics. Anything. You know it was bad when the announcers barely mentioned it and they quietly went to break.

I respectfully disagree. I took it as stunned silence, like man what did we just see? 

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@Burgundy LaRueyour posts summed up a lot of my feelings quite nicely and I agree with you hard on the part where you said that it was a look outside the bubble. That's why even though it's bullshit Twitter trolling, it's still sort of like, meaningful feedback if you're building an audience. I guess there's a part of me that just wanted or hoped for better because it would be, as you alluded to, sort of a step into becoming possibly once again part of the zeitgeist. 

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Love Jericho & his many evolutions over the years (decades), but the shape he's in is pretty disgraceful at the moment. He's a highly paid athlete, a marquee star, and looks like he's just rolled out of a several month booze-binge. I get that he's 50, but he's roughly the same age as The Rock & was more agile as an athlete than The Rock when competing as a peer, but look at that difference in physique between the two now. Someone can put me right with some examples, but can you imagine prime authoritarian-Vince allowing marquee stars to deteriorate & roll out like that? If so, who? Physically he's a shadow of even what he looked like on his post-WWE tour in NJPW a couple of years ago. Sting is over a decade older and ostensibly looks in better condition.

RE: some segments of NBA fans' reaction to Dynamite .. are you really that surprised? I'd figure that AEW is pretty blazenly & deliberately politically-correct in its outlook. As mentioned, it has a heavily left-leaning fanbase. While there are some more mature themes to the booking it is not the hyper sexualised / graphic material of WWE at zenith-popularity that these uninitiated spectators may have been exposed to before falling off in years gone by. There's a lot of humour that is going to come across as straight up lame to segments of the non-watching populace suddenly introduced to it via mainstream testosterone sports lead-in (if watching various half dressed dudes in gimp masks giving Adam Page homo-erotic piggy backs, or male dinosaur/Amazonian cliques, for example). Up to AEW on if its trying to appeal to that audience. If not, so what, who cares what they think, its not the target demographic? If yes, then they can resist existing in an echo-chamber & try best to incorporate the feedback.

Edited by A_K
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32 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

@Burgundy LaRueyour posts summed up a lot of my feelings quite nicely and I agree with you hard on the part where you said that it was a look outside the bubble. That's why even though it's bullshit Twitter trolling, it's still sort of like, meaningful feedback if you're building an audience. I guess there's a part of me that just wanted or hoped for better because it would be, as you alluded to, sort of a step into becoming possibly once again part of the zeitgeist. 

Thanks. Twitter can be a mess. But it gives an instant account of perception. I was surprised that so many hadn't heard of AEW. Figured just by watching NBA on TNT they would recognize AEW, however vaguely, by default.

It's a stark path for wrestling if they have any chance to be even somewhat mainstream again.

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22 minutes ago, A_K said:

Love Jericho & his many evolutions over the years (decades), but the shape he's in is pretty disgraceful at the moment. He's a highly paid athlete, a marquee star, and looks like he's just rolled out of a several month booze-binge. I get that he's 50, but he's roughly the same age as The Rock & was more agile as an athlete than The Rock when competing as a peer, but look at that difference in physique between the two now. Someone can put me right with some examples, but can you imagine prime authoritarian-Vince allowing marquee stars to deteriorate & roll out like that? If so, who? Physically he's a shadow of even what he looked like on his post-WWE tour in NJPW a couple of years ago. Sting is over a decade older and ostensibly looks in better condition.

RE: some segments of NBA fans' reaction to Dynamite .. are you really that surprised? I'd figure that AEW is pretty blazenly & deliberately politically-correct in its outlook. As mentioned, it has a heavily left-leaning fanbase. While there are some more mature themes to the booking it is not the hyper sexualised / graphic material of WWE at zenith-popularity that these uninitiated spectators may have been exposed to before falling off in years gone by. There's a lot of humour that is going to come across as straight up lame to segments of the non-watching populace suddenly introduced to it via mainstream testosterone sports lead-in (if watching various half dressed dudes in gimp masks giving Adam Page homo-erotic piggy backs, or male dinosaur/Amazonian cliques, for example). Up to AEW on if its trying to appeal to that audience. If not, so what, who cares what they think, its not the target demographic? If yes, then they can resist existing in an echo-chamber & try best to incorporate the feedback.

AEW is less than two years old, and despite the massive success so far, is still in a stage where it needs to appeal to any and all audiences possible. The next time they have this opportunity, it needs to be such that it's final whistle right into like, Bucks vs Lucha Bros, no entrances. Or Eddie Kingston interrupting JR/Tony's rundown of the card to talk some shit. Grab them with just the best shit you've got to offer that they aren't getting on Mondays. That should be the MO. Maybe this is antiquated late 90s thinking, who knows, but I'd focus on making "WWE ripoff" the absolute last fucking criticism coming out of anyone's mouth. 

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