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AEW - DEC 2020


Dolfan in NYC
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56 minutes ago, Shartnado said:

This must feel (/have felt) pretty strange for any Lucha Libre star that ventures to Japan over the years. Get hit with what in Mexico is a reason to call the Police only to be picked up and worked over some more with less offensive offence.

Would there be any instances where the opposite applies? Is there a move in Japan that (at least some point) pretty much guaranteed victory, but was at the same time spammed (or at least used frequently) in Lucha Libre with little or no consequences?

Belly to Back Suplex. Was Jumbo Tsuruta's and Masa Saito's finisher in the 80s, and then Steve Williams' in the 90s (more dangerously).

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You know what exists in America, and doesn’t really exist anywhere else? Reversing the effects of a figure four leg lock. Feet on the ropes for leverage, and pulling the tights is also a mostly American thing too. Yano-Toru, and other sneaky wannabe westerners have adapted it into a comedy/semi-comedy act because of it.

I agree that all American wrestling needs to take a step back, and slow things down. Since I just watch AEW at this point, where I notice it hurts them the most is PPV. They are alike WCW in a lot of ways, where the frantic matches + angles make for the best TV wrestling, but doesn’t work for PPV when you drag it out for more than two hours, and remove most of the angles. They need to space that out better, maybe introduce something that WCW, and the WWF used to do, and that’s a talk show segment for the halfway point to recap what just happened, as well setup a future match down the line with angles. Like have Darby defend the belt during the first half, and then come to the set all sweaty getting asked tough questions to lead into MJF challenging him, or something. That’s a good breather for the match style they like to work.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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1 hour ago, alstein said:

The contrived dive onto everyone was overused in 90s WCW.  You had one every week in the multigrain luchas.

You actually had four, or six depending on the number of wrestlers. Usually the rudo would cut off the last guy that lead to the  finish. But WCW undercarders tended to work fast, and hard. Throwing out powerbombs like Halloween candy even though one of the top stars hit a relatively safe looking one to end matches. Which I find funny when people complain about moves not being protected, because ultimately even though better looking powerbombs were hit, the Jackknife would always be over.

I bet you these old stars would’ve gotten pissed if I told them they overdid the atomic drop spots to kill it for everyone else up the card. What about the 10 punches in the corner, or sunset flips?

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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I think I like dive trains better when it’s a 1-on-1 sequence, as opposed to guys diving on an ever-increasing group of bodies.  So, like:  guys hits dive, then he turns around and catches the next guy, then that guy catches the next guy, etc.  Those tend to be paced better and have weirdly better odds of people actually being caught.

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This comes back to the same debate people had over Jim Cornette's criticisms of AEW, in fact some of Ross' takes are essentially the same. The problem is you can't tell JR to watch something else because it's his job to watch AEW. It's also his job to sell the action to fans but for whatever reason Ross has taken that to mean he should go on a personal crusade to change how wrestling works in 2020. He's old, old men do this, they fight change and cling to what they perceived as a better time because that's what they prefer. JR has been around for the entire evolution of wrestling, these dives aren't new to him, I don't know why he's choosing to grind his gears about it now except perhaps that it's his reaction to being told he's over the hill. You know, 

MRW nobody I know likes the simpsons joke, where Skinner says "am I out of  touch? No, it's the children who are wrong" - Imgur

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When AEW first started, I was put off by guys "doing too much." That first Bucks vs. Lucha Bros match with piledrivers out the ass, on aprons and through tables; it just made me shake my head. I still feel that way sometimes, but it seems to me they made a deliberate decision to reel it back at list a little bit since then.

So I understand where Ross is coming from, and I even agree to a point, but he's flat out wrong to say that wrestling doesn't evolve. I'm going to start calling it "the Claremont predicament." He's an old guy with a lot of clout, but if you did things his way still, no one would buy what you're selling. Claremont is happy to tell everyone what's wrong with comics, and how to do it better, but whenever he writes something now, it stinks and no one cares. If I had to read stories with giant narration blocks covering the art, and characters telling me their emotions rather than their facial expressions showing it, I'd probably never pick up another comic.

And Claremont's new books don't sell. Judging by the ratings, AEW is clearly doing something right. Maybe there are viewers who never gave wrestling a chance before, because it was slower and perceived as un-athletic? Maybe lapsed fans are excited they finally have something fresh that isn't the same as it was 30 years ago, something that can actually compete for attention with all our modern distractions? In any case, people are buying what they're selling. Sure they could tweak a little bit, but let's not raze the Earth and New Coke this thing.

 

Edited by Dog
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I understand Khan hiring Ross, because he's the voice of a generation and, for a certain segment of the audience, adds instant gravitas and credibility to the proceedings.  At the same time, I can't see how such a smart person could have listened the the JR who listlessly called New Japan, often outright shitting on the product, and thought, "yeah, that's my guy."

 

 

 

 

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@Dog, I agree pretty much entirely. I don't want them to slow it down too much but if they did maybe 10-20% less, things would pop more and they'd have more time to breathe. That's it. It's definitely more minor tweaks rather than having to go back to the '80s. I was listening to a Deadlock review of an Attitude era show and they were talking about how hardly anybody can throw a good punch and how that would help fill in a lot of gaps instead of highspots. The punch is a lost artform for the majority of modern wrestlers and they're not wrong that it could be a nice tool to have to simplify parts where you don't need to be going 100mph. 

Do we get as many repetitious spots as we did in the first 6 months or so? I do feel like they've been better with that lately. Not perfect, but that was something we called them on and they've adjusted. And I agree that they've slowed down a bit too. But I know Nick Jackson and Fenix can have a way more engaging match than the spotfest they had with just a bit more storytelling. I was amazed by the athleticism but it was pretty hollow. And pure spot-based matches are rarely going to last the tests of time because there will always be somebody else pushing the envelope doing something cleaner, tighter, or flashier and it's not sustainable (see ladder matches or AJPW '90s escalation of violence though that had tonnes of psychology/emotion, the way in which they carried it out killed Misawa in the end). That's why I disagree with Dave's "wrestling from different eras can't be compared" take. Psychology/storytelling is evergreen. The mode of how a story is told changes but the emotion and meaning behind that stuff is 100% comparable. 

edit: and speaking of Deadlock, they do JR impressions that absolutely killed me and now I can't watch Dynamite without hearing an inner monologue of horny, cantankerous JR. It rules but it's also so distracting. They even do the Chuck Taylor bit, lol. For a taste of their JR riffing (NSFW swears).

Edited by Jiji
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54 minutes ago, Jiji said:

edit: and speaking of Deadlock, they do JR impressions that absolutely killed me and now I can't watch Dynamite without hearing an inner monologue of horny, cantankerous JR. It rules but it's also so distracting. They even do the Chuck Taylor bit, lol. For a taste of their JR riffing (NSFW swears).

LOL that is tremendous.  Thanks for that.  I'll check my podcast app to see if I can subscribe.

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24 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

LOL that is tremendous.  Thanks for that.  I'll check my podcast app to see if I can subscribe.

Cannot recommend the YT videos of Deadlock covering Booker/Kurt and the greatest Smackdown TLC match ever. I was hooked after watching those.

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I think someone as talented as JR being a strong human being when it comes to standing up for himself back in the 80’s, and 90’s was great. But if I need a long time vet to add his experience, I’d prefer a soldier like Tony over JR’s cranky ass.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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On 12/14/2020 at 12:34 PM, Technico Support said:

I'm taking Ross' dumb statement to its most ridiculous conclusion. I agree that some stuff does go too far.  Certain things absolutely should be death moves.  But a DDT or a superkick aren't them, and that's exactly what he said.  You, on the other hand, discussing Canadian Destroyers and whatnot, are arguing something Ross did not say.

His logic that "they used to be finishers so they always should be" is not sound at all.  Like I said, a vertical suplex used to be a finish.  Antonino Rocca won matches with a dropkick.  It would be ridiculous to end a match like that today.  Things change.       

My point is that the same logic that has turned DDTs and super kicks into meaningless moves is the same logic behind the Canadian Destroyer going down that same path.

 

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This evening's matchlist for Dark-

The Acclaimed vs. Louie Valle & Mike Magnum
Anna ’99’ Jay vs. ‘The Real Mean Girl’ Dani Jordyn
‘The Machine’ Brian Cage vs. VSK
‘The Empbruh’ Baron Black vs. Brandon Cutler
Chaos Project vs. Best Friends
Sotheara Chhun vs. ‘Absolute’ Ricky Starks
Shawn Dean & Fuego Del Sol vs. Jurassic Express
Stu Grayson & Evil Eno vs. Bear Country
Sonny Kiss & ‘The Bad Boy’ Joey Janela vs. RYZIN & Sean Maluta
Kaci Lennox vs. Ivelisse
Hikaru Shida vs. ‘The King’ KiLynn King
Danny Limelight vs. Matt Sydal
Skyler Moore vs. Leva Bates
Tay Conti vs. Freya States

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12 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

I’m looking forward to Bear Country here. Those guys have been very impressive on the indies for a while. They should get some offense, and deserve a serious look.

When I was reading off the list of matches this week to my wife, and we came upon the name "Bear County" both of us went "are they the animal kind, or the other kind?" I'm hoping for the other kind.

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