AEW - DEC 2020

[Technico Support]

If every move that was ever a finisher was still a finisher, we couldn't have wrestling because every match would last about 5 seconds.  I mean for fuck's sake, a plain old vertical suplex was a finisher once.  Ron Garvin beat dudes with a punch.  Bruno and Graham won with a bearhug.  The biggest star of the 80s beat guys with a legdrop.  Should those things also still be finishers by Jr's logic?

Wrestling does evolve and if you don't like it, just watch old shit on Youtube or WWE network and shut the fuck up. 

I do agree that timing on top rope moves could be better so it looks less phony, but I rather have phoniness than have catchers mistime it and guys land on their heads.  It's a small, meaningless complaint.

[EVA]

Listening to the audio, there’s a bit at the end where JR says something like, “What if I went on commentary and pointed out that Jake Roberts beat people with a DDT, so he must be better at it than these guys? I bet they wouldn’t like that.”

And I was like, motherfucker, you HAVE done that.

[DangerMark]

He was at least right that we didn't like it, though. 

Well, I didn't like it. 

[Goodear]

1 hour ago, Technico Support said:

If every move that was ever a finisher was still a finisher, we couldn't have wrestling because every match would last about 5 seconds.  I mean for fuck's sake, a plain old vertical suplex was a finisher once.  Ron Garvin beat dudes with a punch.  Bruno and Graham won with a bearhug.  The biggest star of the 80s beat guys with a legdrop.  Should those things also still be finishers by Jr's logic?

Wrestling does evolve and if you don't like it, just watch old shit on Youtube or WWE network and shut the fuck up. 

I do agree that timing on top rope moves could be better so it looks less phony, but I rather have phoniness than have catchers mistime it and guys land on their heads.  It's a small, meaningless complaint.

I would personally prefer wrestlers take a step back and realize that they could get more out of doing less and properly emphasizing what they are doing. Otherwise you are looking at enhancement guys doing spring board destroyers and leave nothing for the stars to do that will wow the crowd. If someone threw punches as well as Ronnie, I'd be fine with that being how he finishes off jobbers. I popped for Wrestling Genius Hobbs rag dolling Darby with a bearhug. Do things better and they stand up. Do things like they don't matter and they won't. Imagine how much more impressive Rey Fenix would be if his dives weren't sandwiched between seven other dives from everyone from Marko Stunt to Brodie Lee. 

I also don't find dive piles more safe than one or two guys catching as I've seen lots of times where no one takes responsibility to make the catch and the diver hits the floor as people five deep in the pile fall to the floor with no one touching them. I'd much rather trust someone like Cesaro than the entire Dark Order at once.

[Craig H]

At this point, the only person I think you should pull aside to say something to is Fenix and that's only because that fucking guy does something that nearly kills himself every week.

[Shadow]

Hangman + Silver = instant clicks

[Jiji]

Hangman in/with the Dark Order is even better than I imagine.

[Bryan]

2 hours ago, Technico Support said:

If every move that was ever a finisher was still a finisher, we couldn't have wrestling because every match would last about 5 seconds.  I mean for fuck's sake, a plain old vertical suplex was a finisher once.  Ron Garvin beat dudes with a punch.  Bruno and Graham won with a bearhug.  The biggest star of the 80s beat guys with a legdrop.  Should those things also still be finishers by Jr's logic?

Wrestling does evolve and if you don't like it, just watch old shit on Youtube or WWE network and shut the fuck up. 

I do agree that timing on top rope moves could be better so it looks less phony, but I rather have phoniness than have catchers mistime it and guys land on their heads.  It's a small, meaningless complaint.

How did matches in the 1950’s last more than 5 seconds?

And if you have to constantly up the ante or “evolve” where will be in 20 years? Will guys be routinely kicking out of Tiger Driver 91’s and piledrivers from the top rope into flaming tables wrapped in barbed wire?

A full nelson is a finisher in the WWE in 2020. How people respond to moves depends on how they’re portrayed and utilized.

It’s also not just the DDT or super kick that have been devalued, guys are not only routinely kicking out of the Canadian destroyer but they’re frequently on offense a minute later.

It’s not just that the dive into a crowd is contrived and telegraphed by the catchers but it’s also done excessively.

Finishing people with a DDT would be boring and repetitive, so wrestling has to evolve...but literally every show has to feature at least one instance of someone jumping out of the ring onto someone or a group of people—-and frequently (almost always) it’s done more than once.

That doesn’t add up.

 

[Technico Support]

"Every football team before 1906 won games without a forward pass so that means 1901's Michigan team is better than any passing team today." 

[Technico Support]

56 minutes ago, Bryan said:

How did matches in the 1950’s last more than 5 seconds?

And if you have to constantly up the ante or “evolve” where will be in 20 years? Will guys be routinely kicking out of Tiger Driver 91’s and piledrivers from the top rope into flaming tables wrapped in barbed wire?

A full nelson is a finisher in the WWE in 2020. How people respond to moves depends on how they’re portrayed and utilized.

It’s also not just the DDT or super kick that have been devalued, guys are not only routinely kicking out of the Canadian destroyer but they’re frequently on offense a minute later.

It’s not just that the dive into a crowd is contrived and telegraphed by the catchers but it’s also done excessively.

Finishing people with a DDT would be boring and repetitive, so wrestling has to evolve...but literally every show has to feature at least one instance of someone jumping out of the ring onto someone or a group of people—-and frequently (almost always) it’s done more than once.

That doesn’t add up.

 

I'm taking Ross' dumb statement to its most ridiculous conclusion. I agree that some stuff does go too far.  Certain things absolutely should be death moves.  But a DDT or a superkick aren't them, and that's exactly what he said.  You, on the other hand, discussing Canadian Destroyers and whatnot, are arguing something Ross did not say.

His logic that "they used to be finishers so they always should be" is not sound at all.  Like I said, a vertical suplex used to be a finish.  Antonino Rocca won matches with a dropkick.  It would be ridiculous to end a match like that today.  Things change.       

[LoneWolf&Subs]

1 hour ago, Jiji said:

Hangman in/with the Dark Order is even better than I imagine.

I’m imagining Silver & Reynolds leave the Order, and join Page in some sort of Page’s “Stallion Stable”, or something.

Chris Adams didn’t end matches with a super kick. He’d super kick his TV just to change the fucking channel.

Edited December 14, 2020 by LoneWolf&Subs

[Jiji]

We can certainly dream.

[Curt McGirt]

Kenny doing the machine gun and then going "AHHHHHHH" for no reason should be in the beginning of Botchamania now. I laughed way too hard at that.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

Kaz feels perfectly cast here.

[AxB]

Don't Roman Reigns and Orange Cassidy both use a Punch as an alternate finish?

I'm thinking the Spanglish intervention in BTE was filmed a while ago, seeing as Santana was in it but wasn't at the last set of tapings.

[zendragon]

I pretty much agree with what Lance Storm said about finding a balance between Spots and working a headlock for 20 minutes. Also Less is more when it comes to things like dives. Undertaker did dives but he didn't do them match and he didn't do them when he was working someone who had better dives like Rey Mysterio. Also Agree with Lance when he said more emphasis on learning to work not just stringing together flashy moves

[DangerMark]

I took Storm's point to be "there were things that were better in the old days, but we shouldn't be jackasses about it, especially if we want people to listen to us," which is something that I can get behind. There are aspects of the AEW style, such as it is, that I am not on board with but there's enough stuff that I can get excited about too that I don't mind because basically the alternative is being JR, and to hell with that. 

[Jiji]

Definitely agree that they could milk fewer highspots for more reactions without falling into a WWE formula or reverting back to the territory days. I was arguing for that last year after the first handful of shows. You can have a spot fest match here and there, and I don't want to see Fenix working a hold for 5 minutes, but they shouldn't be the norm. Most of the guys on the roster are capable too. 

[TheVileOne]

I don't like the big dive where someone goes off the top rope into a crowd of people either. But that's not isolated to AEW, and it's been an overused cluster**** spot for nigh two decades now.

I also don't care for El Desperado using a Canadian Destroyer as a transitional or setup move. It's dumb.

Edited December 15, 2020 by TheVileOne

[Jiji]

I mean, Okada uses a tombstone, often times leaping and spinning, just to pick a dude up. NJPW has some strange set-up moves. I get that it's supposed to brain a dude so they're ready to go for the Rainmaker but I always found that a bit strange. Omega's V-Trigger -> OWA makes way more sense imo.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

Tombstones aren’t finishers in Japan. They’ve never been since the 1980’s. They were always a transition move. 

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

I would more to look to argue things the other way, that working holds can be about opening moments and rest holds. I'm not saying everyone has to be Timothy Thatcher, but wrestling kind of should be based on wrestling - and doing arm-twisties out of eachothers finishers doesn't really count by the way.

[Shartnado]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Tombstones aren’t finishers in Japan. They’ve never been since the 1980’s. They were always a transition move. 

This must feel (/have felt) pretty strange for any Lucha Libre star that ventures to Japan over the years. Get hit with what in Mexico is a reason to call the Police only to be picked up and worked over some more with less offensive offence.

Would there be any instances where the opposite applies? Is there a move in Japan that (at least some point) pretty much guaranteed victory, but was at the same time spammed (or at least used frequently) in Lucha Libre with little or no consequences?

[Goodear]

Lariats?

[Shartnado]

11 minutes ago, Goodear said:

Lariats?

That's probably the one thing I could come up with. So yeah, that at least.