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NOV 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

Dolfan in NYC

By Dolfan in NYC
in The PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING

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paintedbynumbers

paintedbynumbers

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Ryan said:

Oh god, I looked up this fella and I REMEMBER this song AND this video because of MTV at the time as you'll notice Ashlee Simpson is in the video. He's had no success at all since that time period.

 

Edit: I'm having way too many distinct memories of this popping up in my head now. That is the quintessential 2004ish hairstyle for the American Eagle demo.

he's been on Miz's show as well. He seems to be good friends with Miz and Ziggler. Probably how Alexa and he met.  Yes this was his one hit wonder though. Supposedly he's been married or engaged multiple times.

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Ryan

Ryan

Posted
Posted (edited)

For some likely accurate hearsay about Drakey boy. If true, being a drug addict and finding religion are not remotely surprising and highly likely given the type of wrestling he did and where he lives.

Quote

 

Me: You've always had your ear a lot closer to the indy scene than I ever have. Has Drake Younger always been this fucking religious and stupid do you think or is this a recent Floridian development?

Friend:
It's a recent development. Basically my understanding is he was a drug addict and found religion to get clean, but he ended up at one of those wacko Evangelical churches that radicalized him.

 

 

Edited by Ryan
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Eoae

Eoae

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, Hagan said:

It didn't last and they were ultimately cannon fodder but Miz and Truth were good topline heel team there for a bit. I remember the HITC finish where they laid waste to everyone getting good heat. 

 


Supposedly there were long term plans for in place for Awesome Truth, but Vince got pissed and scrapped them when Truth failed a drug test.  They got jobbed out (and didn't really look good) to Cena & Rock in the Survivor Series match.  Miz attacked Truth and broke up the team the next night on RAW.  Truth's wellness violation and suspension were announced the following morning.

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Eoae

Eoae

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, The Natural said:

Good stuff.

The problem is Zelina doesn't seem to have been fired for being pro-union (though that was probably a factor).  She apparently was fired for refusing to comply with Vince's directive to shut down her Twitch account and whatever other social media platforms he was wanting control of.  Also, per Meltzer, the onlyfans account was making the company nervous (I don't blame them there).

The onlyfans association makes me think reputable organizations (like SAG-AFTRA) will not want to wade too deeply into this issue on Vega's behalf.

I don' t necessarily agree with Vince's directive about Twitch, but..... the company owns the ip's.  Legally, they don't have to let the talent make money off their gimmick names without some oversight, and they probably shouldn't since that would probably eventually lead to talent endorsing pornhub under their character name or something equally stupid.

I was trying to think of the closest analogue to the situation talent is in.  Actors aren't allowed to promote themselves using the names of their characters without the studio's permission, but that's not really the same thing.  Most actors who would be able to make money off their character are probably reasonably well known under their real name.  Voice actors, maybe?  Unless you're voicing a role in the Simpsons or Bob's Burgers, voice actors are mostly little known unless you're really into the industry.  There are a lot of professional voice actors working in anime and video games who are basically unknown under their real names even to fans of the shows and games.  

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TheVileOne

TheVileOne

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, The Natural said:

Good stuff.

When The Wrestler came out, Darren Aronofsky spoke about how professional wrestlers should be able to go into SAG-AFTRA. I've always wondered why no one else has brought this up and why it's never an issue beforehand. Every few years or so, people talk about wrestler unionization. But rather than unionizing them on their own, why aren't they covered by SAG-AFTRA?

I'm not sure what comes of this, but if SAG-AFTRA will at least take up on wrestlers' behalves for huge oversteps on independent contractors like with the third-party policy ban.

Now maybe WWE has a point that talents shouldn't be using their WWE ring names on these platforms. So why can't they use their real names?

 

Quote

 

The problem is Zelina doesn't seem to have been fired for being pro-union (though that was probably a factor).  She apparently was fired for refusing to comply with Vince's directive to shut down her Twitch account and whatever other social media platforms he was wanting control of.  Also, per Meltzer, the onlyfans account was making the company nervous (I don't blame them there).

The onlyfans association makes me think reputable organizations (like SAG-AFTRA) will not want to wade too deeply into this issue on Vega's behalf.

I don' t necessarily agree with Vince's directive about Twitch, but..... the company owns the ip's.  Legally, they don't have to let the talent make money off their gimmick names without some oversight, and they probably shouldn't since that would probably eventually lead to talent endorsing pornhub under their character name or something equally stupid.

I was trying to think of the closest analogue to the situation talent is in.  Actors aren't allowed to promote themselves using the names of their characters without the studio's permission, but that's not really the same thing.  Most actors who would be able to make money off their character are probably reasonably well known under their real name.  Voice actors, maybe?  Unless you're voicing a role in the Simpsons or Bob's Burgers, voice actors are mostly little known unless you're really into the industry.  There are a lot of professional voice actors working in anime and video games who are basically unknown under their real names even to fans of the shows and games.  

 

OK, but what right does WWE have to dictate talents using or making money off of their own personal Twitch or YouTube channels, especially if they aren't using their WWE ring names/personalities for them? They are independent contractors at the end of the day. Also, even if wrestlers agreed to things in contracts, contracts are not written in blood. They are not always binding in all cases and they can be legally disputed in court.

Her OnlyFans account isn't even being done under her WWE name either.  

Keep in mind there's been a lot of contradicting information about this whole Twitch ban. WWE does not or shouldn't own the ring names of all these characters. WWE doesn't own AJ Styles or Mia Yim. Not to mention, AJ Styles and Mia Yim were established or working wrestlers for years before they ever joined WWE and used those ring names. WWE didn't create and own all these characters in every respect. 

 

Speaking of voice actors. Emily Swallow, The Armor from The Mandalorian, did this audio on Cameo. So basically, a fan privately paid Swallow to sample a line from Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith as her character from The Mandalorian. So, she's getting paid through her cameo to do this. Is this legal? She's profiting off of IP owned by Lucasfilm and Disney. I imagine Disney could take umbrage with this if they want.

Either way, I don't think this is the same as wrestlers making money through Twitch, especially if they are using their real names. As for their likenesses, how can WWE own the likenesses of wrestlers who are their likenesses who were established with the same likeness in wrestling pre-WWE?

Edited by TheVileOne
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NikoBaltimore

NikoBaltimore

Posted
Posted (edited)

I sadly knew that as soon as people saw her Onlyfans page that it was a matter of time before WWE found out.  I know to recap previous discussions we agreed that there's nothing wrong with using it but according to a company like WWE it would be.  The thing that gets me though is that page wouldn't have been created if they didn't shut down other third party ventures.  From what I read it was created as soon as she shut down her Twitch.  So if anybody's to "blame" it's WWE for causing this to happen in the first place.  I don't know what will come out of this SAG-AFTRA situation but if this gets brought up it shouldn't be a disqualifier for Zelina.

Edited by NikoBaltimore
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Eoae

Eoae

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, NikoBaltimore said:

I sadly knew that as soon as people saw her Onlyfans page that it was a matter of time before WWE found out.  I know to recap previous discussions we agreed that there's nothing wrong with using it but according to a company like WWE it would be.  The thing that gets me though is that page wouldn't have been created if they didn't shut down other third party ventures.  From what I read it was created as soon as she shut down her Twitch.  So if anybody's to "blame" it's WWE for causing this to happen in the first place.  I don't know what will come out of this SAG-AFTRA situation but if this gets brought up it shouldn't be a disqualifier for Zelina.

That's a self-serving argument.  "Your honor, I wouldn't have robbed that man in the first place if the police had let me make a living robbing other people."  Onlyfans has a reputation as a softcore porn site.  Not a lot of employers are going to let themselves be associated with that.  

People seem to be under the impression that being an independent contractor means the employer can't bar certain activities or make demands of the worker.  That's not at all true.  I do a fair bit of consulting work outside my day job and my consulting clients have me sign the same sort of agreements my primary employer does.  Sometimes, that means passing on work with certain clients.  Not always fair, but the client's within his rights to ask, and I can agree or not.  For that matter, my day job requires approval of outside work.  There's a very vague clause in my contract where I agreed to that, so...

Quote

WWE doesn't own AJ Styles or Mia Yim. 

Actually, they do.  Or, at the very least, they own sole rights to use the name for a specified period of time (permanently?).  This happened because AJ and Mia agreed to it in a legally binding contract (signed by them under their real names) - else WWE wouldn't be producing merch in their names.  Shoot names are like any other intellectual property.  They can be transferred to another owner if the current owner agrees to it and the contract is legally executed.

Contracts can be voided by the courts, but that's only done under certain circumstances.  Usually, voiding a contract involves proving that one party didn't uphold their end of the agreement, proving that the contract was negotiated in bad faith (one party was deceived or not made aware of relevant facts they should have known besides signing the contract), or proving the contract cannot or was not legally executed (one party didn't have the right to sell the item or service, the contract wash't properly signed and witnessed by all parties, the contract is unenforceable because it violates some state or federal law, etc.).  Generally, if you know what you're agreeing to when you agree to it, the contract is valid.  You don't have to like the terms or agree with them so long as you sufficiently understand what you are agreeing to.

It's not usual anymore for employers to crack down on workers activities outside the workplace, especially if money is involved.  From what Meltzer said, Vince informed talent of the new policy then asked them to sign new contracts containing language about use of social media platforms like Twitch.  Apparently, most workers agreed.  It doesn't sound like anyone was deceived about the new policy or tricked into signing.  

They work in a profession where they get dropped on their heads.  Maybe diminished capacity is the best argument to make in court?

Edited by Eoae
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TheVileOne

TheVileOne

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, Eoae said:

That's a self-serving argument.  "Your honor, I wouldn't have robbed that man in the first place if the police had let me make a living robbing other people."  Onlyfans has a reputation as a softcore porn site.  Not a lot of employers are going to let themselves be associated with that.  

People seem to be under the impression that being an independent contractor means the employer can't bar certain activities or make demands of the worker.  That's not at all true.  I do a fair bit of consulting work outside my day job and my consulting clients have me sign the same sort of agreements my primary employer does.  Sometimes, that means passing on work with certain clients.  Not always fair, but the client's within his rights to ask, and I can agree or not.  For that matter, my day job requires approval of outside work.  There's a very vague clause in my contract where I agreed to that, so...

Actually, they do.  Or, at the very least, they own sole rights to use the name for a specified period of time (permanently?).  This happened because AJ and Mia agreed to it in a legally binding contract (signed by them under their real names) - else WWE wouldn't be producing merch in their names.  Shoot names are like any other intellectual property.  They can be transferred to another owner if the current owner agrees to it and the contract is legally executed.

Contracts can be voided by the courts, but that's only done under certain circumstances.  Usually, voiding a contract involves proving that one party didn't uphold their end of the agreement, proving that the contract was negotiated in bad faith (one party was deceived or not made aware of relevant facts they should have known besides signing the contract), or proving the contract cannot or was not legally executed (one party didn't have the right to sell the item or service, the contract wash't properly signed and witnessed by all parties, the contract is unenforceable because it violates some state or federal law, etc.).  Generally, if you know what you're agreeing to when you agree to it, the contract is valid.  You don't have to like the terms or agree with them so long as you sufficiently understand what you are agreeing to.

It's not usual anymore for employers to crack down on workers activities outside the workplace, especially if money is involved.  From what Meltzer said, Vince informed talent of the new policy then asked them to sign new contracts containing language about use of social media platforms like Twitch.  Apparently, most workers agreed.  It doesn't sound like anyone was deceived about the new policy or tricked into signing.  

They work in a profession where they get dropped on their heads.  Maybe diminished capacity is the best argument to make in court?

https://heelbynature.com/wrestling-news/wwe-news/mia-yim-files-trademark-to-secure-in-ring-name/

WWE's trademark filing on Mia Yim was refused, so they don't own it. 

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Niners Fan in CT

Niners Fan in CT

Posted
Posted

From Sports Illustrated:  

Early Friday evening, WWE announced the release of Zelina Vega.

So how did we arrive at the point when Trinidad, who was considered a valuable piece in both WWE’s present and future, is no longer a part of the company?

More than just noncompliant with the new company policy, Trinidad directly challenged WWE earlier this month by opening an account on OnlyFans, a site that allows talent to directly interact with their fans. Trinidad’s account features exclusive videos and photos of “cosplays, lingerie, swimsuits and more,” for a monthly subscription fee of $30.

WWE, specifically McMahon, considered this a breach of contract and responded by terminating Trinidad’s contract. Sources close to WWE informed Sports Illustrated that, following discussions regarding Twitch, upper management felt Trinidad boxed them into a difficult situation by opening the OnlyFans account. As unpopular as this new policy is among talent, Trinidad’s dismissal serves as a sobering reminder that the new policy is going to be strictly enforced.

Trinidad is also an active streamer on Twitch, another site included on WWE’s list of banned third-party platforms. Multiple active WWE stars had a presence on Twitch, including AJ Styles and Cesaro. One option for talent to remain on sites like Twitch was to share their account with WWE and make only a fraction of the profit, with receiving a significant portion. Unsurprisingly, this has not been a well-received option.

For WWE, this is a chance to better monetize the streaming world, as well as profit off stars created within WWE. But for Trinidad, as well as WWE personality Paige (Saraya-Jade Bevis), who has also been extremely vocal about independently maintaining her Twitch account, it is infringing upon their ability to make money on a platform built outside of WWE.

WWE confirmed to Sports Illustrated that Trinidad was terminated for breaching her contract. Following her termination, Trinidad made headlines on Friday with a tweet that read, “I support unionization,” joining Bevis in floating the possibility of labor organization. WWE performers are independent contractors, though that classification has been the subject of significant criticism, and are not protected by a union.

The new restrictions on supplemental income streams have irked several members of the roster. Last month, a group of wrestlers, not including Trinidad, reportedly met with McMahon at WWE’s Connecticut headquarters to express displeasure with the company’s Twitch ban, to no avail.

Trinidad’s firing also raises questions about her husband’s future with WWE. She is married to Aleister Black (35-year-old Tom Budgen), and both have built a following on Twitch. Black is also an enormously talented wrestler yet he has not been a weekly presence on WWE programming since the Oct. 9 edition of Raw, where he lost in a competitive match to Kevin Owens and it was announced he was moving to SmackDown as part of the WWE draft. Sources within WWE have confirmed to Sports Illustrated that Black remains under contract and he remains a part of the SmackDown brand.

WWE has the deepest talent pool in all of wrestling, and the company will continue to thrive even without the Zelina Vega character. That, however, does not change the fact that Trinidad is an exceptionally talented manager and wrestler. Had she remained with the company, Trinidad had unlimited potential, especially at a time when WWE is missing major stars like Becky Lynch and Charlotte Flair. Trinidad will continue to succeed in wrestling, but no longer will it take place on the wide-reaching stage of WWE.

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EVA

EVA

Posted
Posted
25 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

From Sports Illustrated:


WWE has the deepest talent pool in all of wrestling, and the company will continue to thrive even without the Zelina Vega character. That, however, does not change the fact that Trinidad is an exceptionally talented manager and wrestler. Had she remained with the company, Trinidad had unlimited potential, especially at a time when WWE is missing major stars like Becky Lynch and Charlotte Flair. Trinidad will continue to succeed in wrestling, but no longer will it take place on the wide-reaching stage of WWE.

LOL who from WWE wrote the last paragraph?

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