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2 hours ago, BloodyChamp said:

I read the first page of this topic and I will read the rest after I post. I was shocked in a good way to see Hogan’s name come up so fast, and more than once. I was also mad to see everybody go straight to the R card and either not mention or gloss over everything else he’s done just to get to the R card. Now here we are at where I have stood with Hogan, my personal choice for this topic.

Now first don’t get me wrong I have no use for a racist, and I have no hatred or judgement in any walk of life for anybody because of their race. What I meant by the above is how Hogan had done some heavy stuff before those racist remarks and pretty much gotten a free pass for all of it. The guy basically ruined WCW by backing out of a job that they’d built towards for over a year. The whole thing was originally conceived because he’d ran out of people to beat in the first place. The guy did the same thing to Vince who simply handled it better, but that doesn’t change Hogan’s behavior.

Then there are all the secondary stories like him not calling the Iron Shiek back in WCW, blaming Benoit and Malenko for his low ratings that week, and just on and on a list of seemingly irrelevant but nonetheless jerk behavior that he’s never had to own. 

Then it finally happened, the 1 thing society won’t forgive, the N word. I didn’t have the energy to get mad myself at this point because it was just another day at the office for Hogan. Remember another thing he said? He said GOD WAS PUNISHING THE PERSON NICK TURNED INTO A VEGETABLE! O that was no big deal but he said the N word. And here we are now he’s pretty much been forgiven for that, and rewarded what was it something like $300,000,000 for it lol! Along with the pussy he got lol! Ugh...

And I believe in forgiveness to don’t get me wrong but...gah...Hogan is my pick for this discussion lol!

 

Thank you for your post, @BloodyChamp. I actually forgot what Hulk Hogan said about the guy his son left brain damaged. Jesus.

Edited by The Natural
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On 10/31/2020 at 5:50 PM, The Natural said:

Hulk Hogan. Hated him for always winning, a sore loser when beat fairly, his repeated backstage politics like at Starrcade 1997 vs. Sting and worse of all, he's a racist piece of shit. I have utter contempt for the Hulkster. Fuck you, Hulk Hogan. Fuck right off.

My original Hulk Hogan, Fuck You post.

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12 hours ago, HumanChessgame said:

This reminds me of the Keith Lee/Jeff Cobb match everyone was really high on. It seemed like they were trying to build the match around being two big guys wrestling like cruiserweights. They ended up doing a lot of high spots at half speed and I thought most of it just looked like crap. Both of them are capable of busting out some size-defying maneuvers but I think it's best to save stuff like that for when it'll mean something and really get a pop rather than just spamming it. Though I think you could apply that criticism to a lot of wrestling these days.

One of the greatest dropkicks I've ever seen was from the Undertaker when he was in WCW.  But as the Undertaker it didn't fit with his character.  At it's heart it's a babyface move.  Heels are not supposed to have any redeeming qualities and a move like a dropkick has the redeeming quality of effort and 'flash' in a good sense.  

 

That's part of the problem with wrestlers today using these aerial high spots, if they are the heel it doesn't fit with their character.  It's best used for babyfaces or in a place like Japan where there's not really that heel/face structure for the most part.

 

I re-watched Eddy vs. Rey at Halloween Havoc and the biggest aerial high spot Eddy does in that match, as the heel, was his slingshot senton.  

 

I think that's what gets lost in wrestling today...the understanding that heels are not supposed to have redeeming values.  It's why the Figure Four is a better move for a heel while the Scorpion Deathlock can be used effectively by the babyfaces.  The figure four doesn't take a lot of ability to apply and the idea is that the heel would use it to permanently injure the opponent.  The scorpion deathlock requires effort from the wrestler to turn the opponent over on their stomach.  That effort = redeeming quality.

 

Unless you're a puroresu type of promotion where there's not a defined heel-face structure, those aerial high spots are often unwise.

 

Paul Roma threw a great dropkick, but he made sure to then show off to the crowd and act like 'ain't I great.' Art Barr would do the same thing.  But with today's wrestlers trying to use heel/face psychology and the heel doing moves that are more face like and not acknowledging the crowd...everything starts to fall flat in the end.

 

 

 

 

HoC

 

 

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1 hour ago, Hustler of Culture said:

... in a place like Japan where there's not really that heel/face structure for the most part.

Unless you're a puroresu type of promotion where there's not a defined heel-face structure...

 

 

Have you watched any New Japan this year? If anything, they are way overdoing the heel/face stuff these days with constant cheating and interference in every Bullet Club match. It's a pretty common talking point that heel vs face isn't important in Japanese pro wrestling, but it really hasn't been true for quite a long time. Also, the roots of Japanese Pro wrestling were totally based on "local heroes vs foreign heels" booking. The lines did blur quite a lot in '80s and '90s NJPW and AJPW, though. Michinoku Pro, though? Dump vs Chigusa?

Sure, even now in situations like the G1, you get face vs face and heel vs heel match-ups, but almost all of the big storyline stuff involves good guys being noble and bad guys cheating to win these days. 

 

And as you point out yourself, it's very easy to get around the "bad guys shouldn't do crowd-pleasing moves" idea. The heel just needs to be a dick about it.

But to be honest, I don't really think that pro wrestling is mainly about wanting the good guy to win and the bad guy to get what's coming to him any more - just like it's no longer about bilking local farmers out of their betting money or about cheering for folks who share a similar racial and cultural background with oneself and booing anyone who doesn't. I'd argue that it's mainly about providing a sense of community and belonging these days - but that's a whole other topic.

I mean, the heel/face structure leading up to Full Gear was very muddled in the case of Mox vs Kingston, Bucks vs FTR, Cody vs Darby, MJF vs Jericho, and Kenny vs Hangman... and there was o shortage of heels doing flashy moves all night long... but it ended up being a very enjoyable and satisfying PPV nonetheless. 

It's weird in that I can totally see where you are coming from and how that was certainly true at one time, and I love the feeling of cheering for a likable face against a hate-able heel, but I honestly don't think it applies all that much any more.

 

Edited by El Gran Gordi
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Accidental self-quote.

So, uh, most hated.

HHH. I know he's redeemed himself in a lot of eyes with his NXT booking, but oh my goodness did I ever hate his endless run on top where he kept trying and trying (and failing and failing) to get himself over as a Flair-type epic match genius worker. Just put me right off or pro wrestling. So much potential greatness was sacrificed on the altar of his raging egomania.

Edited by El Gran Gordi
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16 hours ago, supremebve said:

I understand and often agree with this criticism, but I also feel like it's a bit unfair to these guys.  When HHH and Shawn Michaels are intimately involved in the booking/direction of NXT, are we really surprised that this is what the main event style turned into?  If the people in charge think  non-self aware epics are the pinnacle of wrestling, how do you really blame the workers for working that style?  I'm not a fan of the style in general, but I do respect the quality of work those guys put into that style if that makes sense.  It is like if Biggie Smalls lived long enough to put out an autotune album.  It may be the best autotune album of all time, but I don't want to hear a Bigge Smalls autotune album.  That is how I feel about Cole and Gargano.  Those guys are both clearly talented workers, who understand exactly what is being asked of them, and they go out there and do that at an extremely high level.  The problem is, it's not really what I want from them...or anyone else for that matter...any more.  That isn't really their fault.  

It's a fair point, I can't begrudge them for following direction but they unfortunately have that association now for better or worse.

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4 hours ago, Hustler of Culture said:

One of the greatest dropkicks I've ever seen was from the Undertaker when he was in WCW.  But as the Undertaker it didn't fit with his character.  At it's heart it's a babyface move.  Heels are not supposed to have any redeeming qualities and a move like a dropkick has the redeeming quality of effort and 'flash' in a good sense.  

 

That's part of the problem with wrestlers today using these aerial high spots, if they are the heel it doesn't fit with their character.  It's best used for babyfaces or in a place like Japan where there's not really that heel/face structure for the most part.

 

I re-watched Eddy vs. Rey at Halloween Havoc and the biggest aerial high spot Eddy does in that match, as the heel, was his slingshot senton.  

 

I think that's what gets lost in wrestling today...the understanding that heels are not supposed to have redeeming values.  It's why the Figure Four is a better move for a heel while the Scorpion Deathlock can be used effectively by the babyfaces.  The figure four doesn't take a lot of ability to apply and the idea is that the heel would use it to permanently injure the opponent.  The scorpion deathlock requires effort from the wrestler to turn the opponent over on their stomach.  That effort = redeeming quality.

 

Unless you're a puroresu type of promotion where there's not a defined heel-face structure, those aerial high spots are often unwise.

 

Paul Roma threw a great dropkick, but he made sure to then show off to the crowd and act like 'ain't I great.' Art Barr would do the same thing.  But with today's wrestlers trying to use heel/face psychology and the heel doing moves that are more face like and not acknowledging the crowd...everything starts to fall flat in the end.

 

 

 

 

HoC

 

 

As part of Power and Glory and Pretty Wonderful, Paul Roma gloated after pretty much every high spot, even elbow drops.

Also, this is neither here nor there, but I totally think Undertaker should have used his awesome dropkick against someone like Giant Gonzales or Yokozuna, for example. That would not have seemed out of place, just a zombie with a good strategic skills.

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Maybe this is too internet smark circa 1999, but to this day (in ring) I really can't stand Goldberg. Couldn't wrestle longer than three minutes, couldn't even do the moves he had without fucking them up and hurting people, couldn't talk, had no juice without the streak (WILL JERRY FLYNN BE THE ONE TO BREAK IT THIS WEEK?), and then had (has? is still contractually obligated to continue?) a listless, heatless farewell tour. He's got a great entrance and was breath of fresh air in the dying days of WCW in retrospect, but truly the best thing you could say about him is that his matches were short and even then, they somehow still felt brutally slow. Would easily be my pick for lowest ceiling of anyone with that much of a push behind them -- at least Warrior had tassels. 

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8 hours ago, El Gran Gordi said:

Accidental self-quote.

So, uh, most hated.

HHH. I know he's redeemed himself in a lot of eyes with his NXT booking, but oh my goodness did I ever hate his endless run on top where he kept trying and trying (and failing and failing) to get himself over as a Flair-type epic match genius worker. Just put me right off or pro wrestling. So much potential greatness was sacrificed on the altar of his raging egomania.

Oh hell yes, Flair Cosplay Hunter was the absolute worst.  You don’t work like Flair when you’re built like Luger.  You can’t beg off and show ass when you’re roided up and bigger than your opponents.  And the worst of it was definitely trying to prove himself to be a main event super worker by insisting on looooong matches with guys like Scott Steiner who had no business going longer than 8 minutes.

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10 hours ago, El Gran Gordi said:

Accidental self-quote.

So, uh, most hated.

HHH. I know he's redeemed himself in a lot of eyes with his NXT booking, but oh my goodness did I ever hate his endless run on top where he kept trying and trying (and failing and failing) to get himself over as a Flair-type epic match genius worker. Just put me right off or pro wrestling. So much potential greatness was sacrificed on the altar of his raging egomania.

 

1 hour ago, Technico Support said:

Oh hell yes, Flair Cosplay Hunter was the absolute worst.  You don’t work like Flair when you’re built like Luger.  You can’t beg off and show ass when you’re roided up and bigger than your opponents.  And the worst of it was definitely trying to prove himself to be a main event super worker by insisting on looooong matches with guys like Scott Steiner who had no business going longer than 8 minutes.

A terrible long ass nine month World Heavyweight Championship reign with one of the worst matches in the history of wrestling versus Scott Steiner at Royal Rumble 2003. The delayed cover to Booker T at WrestleMania XIX with the racist build to it. Bad matches with Kevin Nash and not putting Goldberg over for it in the Elimination Chamber match at SummerSlam 2003, that was the closest Goldberg came to WCW Goldberg in his first WWE run.

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3 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Oh hell yes, Flair Cosplay Hunter was the absolute worst.  You don’t work like Flair when you’re built like Luger.  You can’t beg off and show ass when you’re roided up and bigger than your opponents.  And the worst of it was definitely trying to prove himself to be a main event super worker by insisting on looooong matches with guys like Scott Steiner who had no business going longer than 8 minutes.

One other problem was that it seemed like they were trying to force an old-school "travelling champ" heel run in an era when it just couldn't work.

If you imagine that Booker T, RVD, Steiner, Goldberg were all territorial aces, it would have made sense. The arrogant champ comes to town, feuds with the face, sneaks out with a dirty win, and leaves the fans shaking their fists and hungry for him to get his comeuppance next time. But when you're a single, (inter)nationally televised promotion, you wind up burning through talent when you book like that, because there's never a cool-off period where the guys are still at the top locally but not involved with the champ.

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11 hours ago, The Idiot King said:

Maybe this is too internet smark circa 1999, but to this day (in ring) I really can't stand Goldberg. Couldn't wrestle longer than three minutes, couldn't even do the moves he had without fucking them up and hurting people, couldn't talk, had no juice without the streak (WILL JERRY FLYNN BE THE ONE TO BREAK IT THIS WEEK?), and then had (has? is still contractually obligated to continue?) a listless, heatless farewell tour. He's got a great entrance and was breath of fresh air in the dying days of WCW in retrospect, but truly the best thing you could say about him is that his matches were short and even then, they somehow still felt brutally slow. Would easily be my pick for lowest ceiling of anyone with that much of a push behind them -- at least Warrior had tassels. 

My second choice after Hogan probably. Remember after like a measly year he was going on all of those radio shows destroying the company he worked for? That booked him to be the greatest? And paid him alot of money to do it??? And his gripe was never that all he did was wrestle Jerry Flynn and Bobby Blaze. That streak wtf...who else wouldn’t have had a streak against those guys? I was never a fan from the start before I found out what a turd he was. They could have invested alot less in any number of guys young fans were desperate to see win and gotten bigger returns. “Goldberg” was the dumbest idea in history imo (hmmm maybe some Jim Herd midcard idea or indie gimmick was worse but those only lasted a few weeks). Then like Hogan there are just so many secondary stories to go along with the 1 where he almost killed Bret Hart. 

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For me, I don't mind a big guy doing a high flying spot in a vacuum.

But when I've just seen the fourth different 265+ lbs man do a twisting plancha con hilo splash on the same show, it loses a lot of it's impressiveness.

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About heels doing certain moves this is so true all the way down to the molecular level. I remember watching Ric Flair vs Ric Rude from 1993 when Ric Flair did a springboard into a sunset flip and thinking how good Flair looked as a face and it was because he did that basic move that only faces do. Something about a guy flipping into the ring makes him like able, and when he does it while outsmarting a bad guy well it’s just fantastic. 

 

Edited by BloodyChamp
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On 11/14/2020 at 7:08 AM, El Gran Gordi said:

I mean, the heel/face structure leading up to Full Gear was very muddled in the case of Mox vs Kingston, Bucks vs FTR, Cody vs Darby, MJF vs Jericho, and Kenny vs Hangman... and there was o shortage of heels doing flashy moves all night long... but it ended up being a very enjoyable and satisfying PPV nonetheless. 

I feel what it means to be a face or a heel has changed a lot, and there is plenty of room for nuance, shades of grey and people who just plain don't like each other. That said, I have no idea what was going on in the build up to the tag title match and why anyone would want to see either team win when taking what was happening on TV at face value. 

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On 11/14/2020 at 2:08 AM, El Gran Gordi said:

Have you watched any New Japan this year? If anything, they are way overdoing the heel/face stuff these days with constant cheating and interference in every Bullet Club match. It's a pretty common talking point that heel vs face isn't important in Japanese pro wrestling, but it really hasn't been true for quite a long time. Also, the roots of Japanese Pro wrestling were totally based on "local heroes vs foreign heels" booking. The lines did blur quite a lot in '80s and '90s NJPW and AJPW, though. Michinoku Pro, though? Dump vs Chigusa?

Sure, even now in situations like the G1, you get face vs face and heel vs heel match-ups, but almost all of the big storyline stuff involves good guys being noble and bad guys cheating to win these days. 

 

And as you point out yourself, it's very easy to get around the "bad guys shouldn't do crowd-pleasing moves" idea. The heel just needs to be a dick about it.

But to be honest, I don't really think that pro wrestling is mainly about wanting the good guy to win and the bad guy to get what's coming to him any more - just like it's no longer about bilking local farmers out of their betting money or about cheering for folks who share a similar racial and cultural background with oneself and booing anyone who doesn't. I'd argue that it's mainly about providing a sense of community and belonging these days - but that's a whole other topic.

I mean, the heel/face structure leading up to Full Gear was very muddled in the case of Mox vs Kingston, Bucks vs FTR, Cody vs Darby, MJF vs Jericho, and Kenny vs Hangman... and there was o shortage of heels doing flashy moves all night long... but it ended up being a very enjoyable and satisfying PPV nonetheless. 

It's weird in that I can totally see where you are coming from and how that was certainly true at one time, and I love the feeling of cheering for a likable face against a hate-able heel, but I honestly don't think it applies all that much any more.

 

Puroresu has had a gaijin vs. natives theme throughout its history, but it usually only has a small term impact because if the gaijin is good enough and connects with the fans, they'll be embraced.  Destroyer was the feared, hated gaijin...then was beloved.  Funks...hated and feared gaijins, then beloved.  Same with Brody, Dynamite, etc.  

 

Puroresu is a different psychology that American wrestling.  It's more about respect and rooting for one wrestler over the other than it is about loving one wrestler and hating the other.  While it's a different animal, world eating champion Kobayashi talked about this in his 30 for 30 documentary...he was not accustomed to the idea of the fans booing a competitor because Japanese culture isn't into that.  

 

For all of the talk about how pro wrestling has evolved in the US, the fact remains is that they have the least amount of eyeballs watching wrestling than they have ever had.  I don't think you need to have this blatant, old fashion heel vs. face structure in order to draw in the US.  And a promotion may be able to pull off a puroresu type of culture in the US someday.  But when you muddy everything the fans get less passionate about what they're watching.

 

There's a way to do things that can have the same impact.  DK vs. Sayama was a great example and it's why people enjoy it today.  It wasn't old school Memphis style heeling.  But it was clear that DK was the heel and Sayama was the face.  DK didn't do many aerial high spots or even flashy high spots.  Even the flying headbutt has a heel element to it.  Or watch Eddy vs. Rey at Halloween Havoc.  The only aerlal high spot or flashy spot from Eddy is when he does the slingshot somesault senton.  And Eddy didn't do massive cheating or underhanded tactics...but it was clear that he was the heel and Rey was the face.  

 

 

HoC

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On 11/14/2020 at 5:33 AM, Shartnado said:

As part of Power and Glory and Pretty Wonderful, Paul Roma gloated after pretty much every high spot, even elbow drops.

Also, this is neither here nor there, but I totally think Undertaker should have used his awesome dropkick against someone like Giant Gonzales or Yokozuna, for example. That would not have seemed out of place, just a zombie with a good strategic skills.

It would have been good to use the dropkick against those opponents because they were heels and he was a face.  It was still a bit out character for the Undertaker and to me it's not worth it when there's other ways to attack those opponents without breaking his character.  Although I would prefer if he didn't have a character that limited his moveset in the first place.

 

 

 

 

 

HoC

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On 11/14/2020 at 5:07 AM, The Idiot King said:

Maybe this is too internet smark circa 1999, but to this day (in ring) I really can't stand Goldberg. Couldn't wrestle longer than three minutes, couldn't even do the moves he had without fucking them up and hurting people, couldn't talk, had no juice without the streak (WILL JERRY FLYNN BE THE ONE TO BREAK IT THIS WEEK?), and then had (has? is still contractually obligated to continue?) a listless, heatless farewell tour. He's got a great entrance and was breath of fresh air in the dying days of WCW in retrospect, but truly the best thing you could say about him is that his matches were short and even then, they somehow still felt brutally slow. Would easily be my pick for lowest ceiling of anyone with that much of a push behind them -- at least Warrior had tassels. 

That's the story of the Idiot King... A vastly underplayed Bob Dylan throwaway tune-up track.

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I literally just said in another thread that old white promoters see non-whiteness as a gimmick.  White is the default for a wrestler and anything else = gimmick.  And here we have Cornette coming right out and saying the problem with Japanese woman wrestlers in American companies is that "there are too many of them."  Because promoter conventional wisdom is that of course you don't want more than one of the same gimmick on your roster. 

I don't worry about a marginalized loser like Cornette because he's just preaching to his choir at this point.  The real concern is that the biggest, most influential company in the world is run by a septuagenarian white man who is absolutely still in that old time mindset.

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He's racist because he doesn't like today's Japanese women's wrestling, even though he put over AJW and mentioned that in the 80's AJW would not draw in the US?

 

And that the place that had several Japanese women's wrestling...AEW...made a complete dumpster fire of their women's division and nobody gives a shit about their women's division.

 

Oof.

 

 

HoC

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