UFC 254: Khabib vs. Gaethje (10/24/2020) - Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates (UFC Fight Island)

[Jiji]

I appreciate hearing the counter arguments. That's the best part of GOAT discussions, as we just saw in the NBA thread. There is no absolute right answer even in a sport that had a Michael Jordan. There are strong cases for Jones, Khabib, and GSP. There is an outside case for guys like Fedor, Aldo, and Mighty Mouse. Not all cases are as valid as others, but at least with those first three names I can understand why somebody would rank GSP's sustained dominance over a very good division over Khabib's shorter run. Jones beat up a lot of old and smaller guys but he also has some incredible wins and he was a true mixed martial artist in that he was able to do everything really well, is one of the smartest fighters ever, used his length, chin, and athleticism to destroy his opponents' will in a somewhat similar fashion as Khabib did. You could watch both Jones' and Khabib's opponents wilt when they recognized their strategy had little to no chance of winning the fight. Then it felt like watching a predator toy with their prey at times (thinking about that Barboza demolition in particular. That was akin to watching a constrictor choke the life out of a gazelle). GSP was safer but still amazing at combining stand-up with wrestling and top control then you mix in his endurance and explosiveness and that's special. His record is better than I remember it being too.

I'll say this about Khabib's run: the lightweight division of the past 5-10 years has been insanely deep. He did not fight the likes of Oliveira, Ferguson, Hooker, and a few others to really completely clean it out, but he managed to maintain perfection (did he lose a round in his UFC career?) while the meatgrinder of lightweight took a lot of those would be contenders out of the running. It would have been nice for him to be more active, absolutely, so they didn't have to take fights to tide them over while Khabib was out or occupied. But I think the fact that so many very good fighters didn't even get a title shot says a lot about his run. Khabib beat the guys that beat those guys more often than not. As we were saying pre-fight... Gaethje was probably our best bet outside of Kevin Lee putting together a mega run at presenting something that could really give the champ trouble. Gaethje landed some good shots but he completely altered his style of fighting, footwork, defense, attack just so he wouldn't immediately get taken down. He had his hands out, not clenched 99% of the time. He was lower in posture. Later on, he fell into his old WSOF trappings of leaning over to suck guys in so he could throw a counter haymaker. But he was barely in the fight and choked unconscious (another mistake by my favourite referee Jason Herzog...). The argument for Khabib does present a little MMA Math unlike the arguments for GSP and Jones. But when I'm thinking GOAT, I think of style points as well as record and Khabib wins that one for me as great as the other two are.

[John E. Dynamite]

5 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Yeah, this is something that definitely didn't happen. Being the showcase division doesn't mean it's only the division that exists. Plus, Anderson was head and shoulders above his division. Same with GSP. Matter of fact, we never discussed 170 like we did post GSP-Hendricks when you just had a bunch of killers just pop up. Welterweight started to flourish AFTER GSP retired. 

HW at that time when Cain beat Brock was just Cain and JDS. That's it. They were trying to rebuilt at HW which is why they kept pushing hard to get Fedor.

Look at event buyrates before and after Griffin loses the LHW belt. It's stark. LHW still had the most "names" until the middleweight-and-Bellator exodus, but it stopped being the marquee before UFC 100.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Just now, John E. Dynamite said:

Look at event buyrates before and after Griffin loses the LHW belt. It's stark. LHW still had the most "names" until the middleweight-and-Bellator exodus, but it stopped being the marquee before UFC 100.

Women's bantamweight had Ronda Rousey as 1A or 1B draws in the company. We see what women's bantamweight is. Big names come and go. Just because Lesnar left and Cain and Stipe never became draws on that level doesn't mean heavyweight sucks.

[supremebve]

47 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Wouldn't a lot of names mean depth? Any time you use the phrase "a lot", that usually means depth.

 

My point was more that he beat guys like Rampage and Rashad Evans as they were were crashing back towards the earth.  Those wins would have meant more two or three years earlier.  He cleared out the legends of the division, but those guys, like the division were already on a downslide.  Jones was my GOAT until about 5:00 yesterday, but his resume isn't as rock solid as it seems when you look at where some of the bigger names were in their career when he beat them.  

[John E. Dynamite]

9 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Women's bantamweight had Ronda Rousey as 1A or 1B draws in the company. We see what women's bantamweight is. Big names come and go. Just because Lesnar left and Cain and Stipe never became draws on that level doesn't mean heavyweight sucks.

Big names came and went. For a time, the largest concentration of these names were LHWs. Tito, Chuck, Randy, Rampage, Forrest, Wanderlei, Shogun, Henderson, Sakuraba.. The first three TUF seasons (Rashad always planned a LHW move, Bisping won TUF at LHW).

Big names came to the LHW division. It was the biggest division in the sport. They went. It wasn't. It happened before the Jones reign. And it's never been the marquee division since, not even close.

Edited October 25, 2020 by John E. Dynamite

[Jiji]

1 minute ago, supremebve said:

My point was more that he beat guys like Rampage and Rashad Evans as they were were crashing back towards the earth.  Those wins would have meant more two or three years earlier.  He cleared out the legends of the division, but those guys, like the division were already on a downslide.  Jones was my GOAT until about 5:00 yesterday, but his resume isn't as rock solid as it seems when you look at where some of the bigger names were in their career when he beat them.  

Jones is a little Mayweather-esque in that regard, is he not? He fights a lot of guys who are just past their best but still have the name value. I think Floyd obviously manufactures that more than Jones does though. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, John E. Dynamite said:

Big names came and went. For a time, the largest concentration of these names were LHWs. Tito, Chuck, Randy, Rampage, Forrest, Wanderlei, Shogun, Henderson, Sakuraba.. The first three TUF seasons (Rashad always planned a LHW move, Bisping won TUF at LHW).

Big names came to the LHW division. It was the biggest division in the sport. They went. It wasn't. It happened before the Jones reign.

The name notoriety was still very much there or else Jon would basically Mighty Mouse. Notice how long it took Demetrious Johnson to come in this discussion. His division was out of sight, out of mind. 

Being at LHW is the only reason why Jon is in this discussion. He never fought at MW or HW. You could never be in the GOAT argument if it wasn't the showcase division.

5 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Those wins would have meant more two or three years earlier.  

Not really because we never were going to believe those guys could beat Jon in ANY year. 2007 Rampage isn't being Jon. 2008 Rashad isn't beating Jon Jones. 2006 Chuck Liddell isn't beating Jon Jones. Early 2000s Tito Ortiz isn't beating Jon Jones. Etc. 

6 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Jones is a little Mayweather-esque in that regard, is he not? He fights a lot of guys who are just past their best but still have the name value. I think Floyd obviously manufactures that more than Jones does though. 

The thing is...Jon never really got pick his opponents. 

[Jiji]

Don't fighters turn down fights all the time, especially those with leverage at the top?

[John E. Dynamite]

 

8 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

The name notoriety was still very much there or else Jon would basically Mighty Mouse. Notice how long it took Demetrious Johnson to come in this discussion. His division was out of sight, out of mind. 

Being at LHW is the only reason why Jon is in this discussion. He never fought at MW or HW. You could never be in the GOAT argument if it wasn't the showcase division.

No, he would not basically be Mighty Mouse. That's a completely false equivalency. A fading LHW in 2011 was not the same thing as the FLW division Mighty Mouse cleaned out. Just because 205 wasn't *the best* division then doesn't automatically make it the worst.

Excluded from GOAT discussion if you weren't in the showcase division? Jones could have never been in the discussion if he was a MW? Who the fuck is Anderson Silva, then?

I think Jon Jones is the #2 P4P guy, all time. I think GSP is better because he fought better guys. This is the forest I am trying to present. Be aware of this while you shout at a tree.

Edited October 25, 2020 by John E. Dynamite

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said:

 

No, he would not basically be Mighty Mouse. That's a completely false equivalency. A fading LHW in 2011 was not the same thing as the FLW division Mighty Mouse cleaned out. Just because 205 wasn't *the best* division then doesn't automatically make it the worst.

Never said that. I'm saying that light heavyweight was still very much viable place because you could make a name there whether it still had the biggest names there or not. 

Quote

Excluded from GOAT discussion if you weren't in the showcase division? Jones could have never been in the discussion if he was a MW? Who the fuck is Anderson Silva, then?

You read that wrong. Go back and read what I said. I'm saying that it took forever for someone to bring up Mighty Mouse, who was a really great fighter yet on par with Jon at the time (even though part of it was the UFC trying to make it that way. YMMV). I'm saying he ALWAYS fought at light heavyweight. Yet, he was always in the GOAT discussion from very early on. It took Anderson awhile to even get that respect. It took the Chael fights to even get to a level where people gave him that respect.

Quote

I think Jon Jones is the #2 P4P guy, all time. I think GSP is better because he fought better guys. This is the forest I am trying to present. Be aware of this while you shout at a tree.

You're getting upset for no reason.

2 hours ago, Jiji said:

Don't fighters turn down fights all the time, especially those with leverage at the top?

Mayweather was always at an advantage because he could fight in multiple divisions, and at least win one title at those divisions. Being that versatile allowed him to pick and choose opponents carefully. He could have fought Acelino Freitas at 130. I mean I think he would have clowned Freitas, but still would have been nice to see. He could have fought Hatton and Cotto at 140 and Margarito at 147, but I think he would have won all those fights. I think he would have beat Mosley some years before he did. I think that hurts Floyd more than Jon in the sense that Floyd was never gonna have the sexy matchups of fighting guys at their career peak. That's how Pacquiao made his name. He fought Marquez, Barrera, and Morales when they were at the top of the mountain. However, it made more sense for Pacquiao to fight those guys at that time because those guys weren't going to make the same amount of money fighting mandatories and blown up guys like Johnny Tapia. It was very much mutual whereas Floyd commanded good money from the beginning. Then, the De La Hoya fight opened up the floodgates for him. When you don't need guys, you can fight whoever you want.

Jon, on the other hand, was in Ring of Combat for like a year or so and then in the UFC. Mayweather had been fighting since 1996 and was already a P4P fighter by 1999. By the time people were already fantasy booking him in these fights, we're talking 2000/2001. It's not like Jon Jones chose a circuitous route and THEN fought these dudes. He fought these guys the earliest he could have fought them. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco

[supremebve]

1 minute ago, Jiji said:

Jones is a little Mayweather-esque in that regard, is he not? He fights a lot of guys who are just past their best but still have the name value. I think Floyd obviously manufactures that more than Jones does though. 

Yes and no.  Mayweather actively manipulated who he fought, Jones was just the next generation of fighter knocking off the older generation.  It just happened that the generation before him was the golden age of the division.  

For me, we can argue about resumes but the real key to me is how good were these guys in comparison to everyone else.  GSP felt like the next generation of fighter for pretty much his entire run.  @Elsalvajelococlaims that no one was calling Welterweight the best division until after his run, but I couldn't disagree more.  I think Welterweight was the best division in the sport by far at that time.  Not only that, it was the division with the least amount of talent outside of the UFC.  Matt Hughes may have been the best pound for pound fighter in the world when GSP entered the UFC.  BJ Penn was also in that conversation.  The next group of guys were Fitch, Alves, who's names don't sound as sexy now, but those dudes were fucking devastating people at the time.  Then the younger fighters like Hardy, Diaz, and Condit came around and he beat them too.  Throughout that time there was also a list of tough outs like Chris Lytle, Mike Swick, Marcus Davis, etc. who filled the division.  That division was the best division in the sport by a decent margin at the time.  Just getting to a title shot meant you had to beat a pretty long list of quality fighters.  GSP being at the top of that division for as long as he was means something different to me than Anderson Silva being on top of middleweight.  

With that said, Silva's case is different to me.  His case is based on his ability to utterly end your world at any given moment.  Silva could finish you with either hand, either leg, either elbow, either knee, and might just pull out a submission.  You were in clear and present danger for every second you were in the cage with him.  There aren't a lot of fighters who seconds away from fucking you all the way the fuck up at all times like Anderson Silva.

Jose Aldo is the most underrated in my view.  Aldo is the best defensive fighter of all time.  He was also perhaps the most technically proficient fighter of his time.  When he was on his run, there were fights where it just felt like his opponents were so outclassed that he could just cruise to victories.  

Jon Jones' case is based on the fact that he's the single most physically gifted fighter of all time.  You had to compete with his size, speed, reach, and height, before you even had to try to contend with his skillset.  The beginning of his run was full of dudes who were beaten by his physical dimensions as much as his skills.  He was just overwhelming.

Khabib fought in the deepest, most competitive division in the history of the sport and there was not a single second of any of his fights where I thought he might lose.  Seriously, how often is a lightweight fight just a complete blowout?  How many of them do you remember, that weren't Khabib maulings?  In a division where almost every fight is a tough fight, he never had a tough fight.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, supremebve said:

Not only that, it was the division with the least amount of talent outside of the UFC. 

......?

Wait what? Nick Diaz, Evangelista Cyborg, Marius Žaromskis, Paul Daley, Askren, Dan Hornbuckle (RIP Gono), Woodley, Mach Sakurai, Andre Galvao, Tarec Saffiedine, Jason High, Lyman Good, Aoki, etc.

There was a lot of dudes out there.

With that said, we're weren't talking about 170 with the same type of reverence throughout the division until we got to the era of like Lorenz Larkin, Albert Tumenov, Magny, Ponzinibbio, Gunnar Nelson, Matt Brown, Wonderboy, Lawler, Rory, and Maia. Did I imagine all the discussions we had here? Was that on another forum? 

 

[A_K]

GSP's resume sits squarely above for taking the Middleweight title. Khabib has been dominant .. but much of that against souped up featherweights fighting at lightweight. McGregor, Poirier, Johnson .. his style is perfectly suited to fights who he physically over-awes. Hard to buy this so called depth of the lightweight division when many of the top contenders were fighting a division below not that long ago. Would Khabib's tactics work against the naturally larger man? Who knows .. we've never seen him go up. GSP took on that challenge at 36 (years older than Khabib is now) and bossed it. Such a shame we never saw prime-Ferguson vs Khabib.

Edited October 25, 2020 by A_K

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, A_K said:

GSP's resume sits squarely above for taking the Middleweight title. Khabib has been dominant .. but much of that against souped up featherweights fighting at lightweight. McGregor, Poirier, Johnson .. his style is perfectly suited to fights who he physically over-awes. Hard to buy this so called depth of the lightweight division when many of the top contenders were fighting a division below not that long ago. Would Khabib's tactics work against the naturally larger man? Who knows .. we've never seen him go up. GSP took on that challenge at 36 (years older than Khabib is now) and bossed it. Such a shame we never saw prime-Ferguson vs Khabib.

Some points here:

McGregor probably should have never fought at 145 based on what he looks like cutting to FW.

Poirier has put together a better career at LW than FW. And at what point should you be fighting in another division? Whittaker had an okay run at 170. He still is a better MW than welterweight. Same could probably said for a Kelvin Gastelum.

Michael Johnson is a FW because he ran out of answers at LW.

[A_K]

17 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Some points here:

McGregor probably should have never fought at 145 based on what he looks like cutting to FW.

Poirier has put together a better career at LW than FW. And at what point should you be fighting in another division? Whittaker had an okay run at 170. He still is a better MW than welterweight. Same could probably said for a Kelvin Gastelum.

Michael Johnson is a FW because he ran out of answers at LW.

Conor had, what, 7 of 12 UFC fights at Featherweight? If anything with McGregor, his reputation seems to have been tarred by his eagerness at going up. Ultimately he's a 5 ft 9 striker .. there was always capacity for trouble going up against wrestlers esp. in the higher divisions.

Poirier .. his victories are pretty much split between the divisions. Most impressive wins at lightweight are .. Gaethje? Alvarez? I mean, decent fighters, but neither of those are greats. Lost to Michael Johnson at lightweight. Won the interim title against uber-featherweight Holloway.

 

Khabib looked great against a set of contenders who really have been much-of-a-muchness amongst each other, trading losses and wins over the years across this division and the division lower. As said, no doubt utterly dominant. But a black mark that he never went up a division, in the same way to be honest there's a black mark that Jones hasn't ever gone up to heavyweight. Would love to have seen how Khabib's style would have translated a division up against the Usman & Colbys of this world (who really aren't that much his physical superiors - at least in terms of height). GSP took on that challenge; as yet, Khabib hasn't.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by A_K

[Elsalvajeloco]

6 minutes ago, A_K said:

Most impressive wins at lightweight are .. Gaethje? Alvarez? I mean, decent fighters, but neither of those are greats.

I'm pretty sure Gaethje and Alvarez are going to go down as all time great lightweights. I think 9 or 9.5 out of 10 folks would agree with that.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco

[supremebve]

3 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

......?

Wait what? Nick Diaz, Evangelista Cyborg, Marius Žaromskis, Paul Daley, Askren, Dan Hornbuckle (RIP Gono), Woodley, Mach Sakurai, Andre Galvao, Tarec Saffiedine, Jason High, Lyman Good, Aoki, etc.

There was a lot of dudes out there.

With that said, we're weren't talking about 170 with the same type of reverence throughout the division until we got to the era of like Lorenz Larkin, Albert Tumenov, Magny, Ponzinibbio, Gunnar Nelson, Matt Brown, Wonderboy, Lawler, Rory, and Maia. Did I imagine all the discussions we had here? Was that on another forum? 

 

Maybe the discussions picked up here after GSP retired, but those discussions were happening before elsewhere.  Welterweight has been one of the deepest divisions since the beginning.  The difference after GSP is that more of those people could realistically be champions.  That list of dudes you just posted weren't going to beat peak GSP either.  

Nick Diaz eventually made it back.  Evangelista Cyborg and Zaromskis weren't ever going to get to a title shot if they were in the UFC.  Daley had a shot, and wasn't good enough to fight for the title.  Askren didn't exactly set the world on fire once he got to the UFC.  Dan Hornbuckle's best win of his career is who Nick Thompson?  He wasn't getting a title shot.  Mach Sakurai is a lightweight, or at least that is where he was at his best.  Andre Galvao didn't have enough fights in his career that it would take for him to earn a UFC title shot.  Saffiedine wouldn't have been a factor in the UFC at the time.  Jason High was too young, and was never going to be a contender.  Lyman Good is another guy who just wasn't good enough to come in and be a contender.  Aoki is interesting, but I think he is one of those really good grapplers who was a pretty poor wrestler.  He would have got battered in the UFC.  Too many quality wrestlers at the time.  Aoki got his ass beat by anyone who could stop a takedown, his striking was so rudimentary he would have never really been able to compete.  This is kind of my point about the division.  Other than Diaz and  Woodley, who wasn't at that level at the time, I don't think any of them ever get a title shot...and all of those dudes are talented fighters.  Most of those dudes actually ended up in the UFC, and washed out well before they became contenders.  The division was full of dudes who were just plain better than them at the time.  

[A_K]

6 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I'm pretty sure Gaethje and Alvarez are going to go down as all time great lightweights. I think 9 or 9.5 out of 10 folks would agree with that.

Gaethje's gone what, 4 and 3 in 7 in the UFC? Of those 3 wins, he's got what .. 1 against 36 year old Cerrone in his 50th fight, 1 against 36 year old Ferguson, 1 against 33 year old Barboza. In the cold light of day the case is light.

 

Eddie pre-2016? Sure. Eddie Post-Conor fight which is when Poirier beat him? Hmm .. debatable.

Edited October 25, 2020 by A_K

[supremebve]

12 minutes ago, A_K said:

Poirier .. his victories are pretty much split between the divisions. Most impressive wins at lightweight are .. Gaethje? Alvarez? I mean, decent fighters, but neither of those are greats. Lost to Michael Johnson at lightweight. Won the interim title against uber-featherweight Holloway.

 

Beating Gaethje, Alvarez, and Max Holloway is better than pretty much every featherweight or lightweight in the world can say right now.  

[A_K]

3 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Beating Gaethje, Alvarez, and Max Holloway is better than pretty much every featherweight or lightweight in the world can say right now.  

Sure - but sort of my point, which is that lightweight isn't the division it was 4 or 5 years ago. A lot of contenders have aged out of recognition. Tony's writing was on the wall a while before Gaethje ever got to him for example .. you can go back to 2018 & Pettis was close to getting him out of there. Some of the names have stayed the same, but in terms of peak performance the division feels some way off now where it was in 2015/16 time. Don't think Gaethje & Poirier (for example) get as deep down the line in that timeframe as they have now. Ferguson endured some terrible, terrible luck in his prime years.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, supremebve said:

Maybe the discussions picked up here after GSP retired, but those discussions were happening before elsewhere.  

I don't particularly recall them, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Quote

Welterweight has been one of the deepest divisions since the beginning.  The difference after GSP is that more of those people could realistically be champions.  That list of dudes you just posted weren't going to beat peak GSP either.  

My point isn't whether or not those dudes could beat GSP, but whether or not there was talent outside the UFC. There clearly was. Welterweight and middleweight were the key divisions for those promotions that weren't UFC. I mean you could pick up some HW with a name here or there, but the backbone of money mark/lesser tier orgs was going to be those divisions, then HW, and then LW with some female MMA thrown in there along the way.  That's not to diminish what the UFC WW division was at the time, but it wasn't the elite of the elite like it was now minus Douglas Lima. Now they have 98% of the talent in that division. That's opposed to a still meaty 75-80% of the talent. Moreover, the prospects are just way better. What could guys like Hughes, the AKA trio, and a few others do that guys like Covington, Usman, and some of the guys we have now can't do now? Khamzat Chimaev would probably pinebox like roughly 3/4 of those guys who fought 12 years ago. Does a guy like Josh Koscheck beat someone like Durinho who has KO power, good wrestling, and elite BJJ? He would get handled something fierce.

I think at the time the WW division favored a more American folkstyle wrestling pedigree where if you got good enough at something else, you could make a run. We saw what happened when guys like Shields and Fitch fought someone like Toquinho...it did not go very well. Again, those guys were very accomplished. At the same time, you fight in the time period you fight in. In five years, there is probably something we could pick out that works against the legacy of some of the guys now. Hell, five years ago, the whole thing was who was on TRT and how that affects how you look at guys. That's something we ain't factored in. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco

[Elsalvajeloco]

19 minutes ago, A_K said:

Gaethje's gone 4 and 3 in his last 7.

That's what happened you fight other great fighters. One of them has to lose. Still an all time great LW.

[Elsalvajeloco]

10 minutes ago, A_K said:

Sure - but sort of my point, which is that lightweight isn't the division it was 4 or 5 years ago. A lot of contenders have aged out of recognition. Tony's writing was on the wall a while before Gaethje ever got to him for example .. you can go back to 2018 & Pettis was close to getting him out of there.

Shit, Lando Vannata almost finished him. That was Ferguson's MO: Fighting down to the level of competition. 

[supremebve]

9 minutes ago, A_K said:

Sure - but sort of my point, which is that lightweight isn't the division it was 4 or 5 years ago. A lot of contenders have aged out of recognition. Tony's writing was on the wall a while before Gaethje ever got to him for example .. you can go back to 2018 & Pettis was close to getting him out of there. Some of the names have stayed the same, but in terms of peak performance the division feels some way off now where it was in 2015/16 time. Don't think Gaethje & Poirier (for example) get as deep down the line in that timeframe as they have now. Ferguson endured some terrible, terrible luck in his prime years.

I get what you're saying, but I still think you're misguided.  Yes, the division is more shallow right now than it was a few years ago, but you picked great fighters are just as good if not better than anyone in the division when you claim it was better.  Porier is great at everything you want an MMA fighter to be great at.  He's a huge hitter, with great striking, really good grappling and out durabled Justin Fucking Gaethje in their war of attrition.  Gaethje at his best is the fucking terminator, he can walk through pretty much anything and put you to sleep with one shot.  He's also a fucking great wrestler with some of the best footwork in the entire sport.  Ferguson almost got knocked out by Anthony Pettis, who just happens to be really good at knocking people the fuck out.  You know how you know that, because he was the champion 5 years ago when you said the division was better.  

 

[A_K]

6 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

That's what happened you fight other great fighters. One of them has to lose. Still an all time great LW.

Hmm .. don't buy it. Certainly not top 10. Not when 2 of your 4 wins come against 36 year old vets at the very end of long & damaging careers. But to each their own. I definitely bought into the Gaethje hype myself leading up to this fight but in hindsight it was a bit of a fool's errand .. the resume just isn't there. If Khabib stays retired however there's no reason he can't still go on to make a claim & become champion .. McGregor / Gaethje would be a great fight to see. But the rabbit-in-a-headlights nature of this fight left a very sore impression. Khabib is a true great, but this one looked like more of an utter exhibition than it should have done.

Edited October 25, 2020 by A_K