UFC 254: Khabib vs. Gaethje (10/24/2020) - Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates (UFC Fight Island)

[Elsalvajeloco]

3 minutes ago, A_K said:

Hmm .. don't buy it. Certainly not top 10. Not when 2 of your 4 wins come against 36 year old vets at the very end of long & damaging careers. 

How many guys aren't taking damage? Ain't too many MMA fighters that are like Pernell Whittaker or Nicolino Loche. And it's not like Gaethje himself in those fights isn't taking damage. It's bi directional.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco

[Jiji]

57 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I think at the time the WW division favored a more American folkstyle wrestling pedigree where if you got good enough at something else, you could make a run. We saw what happened when guys like Shields and Fitch fought someone like Toquinho...it did not go very well. Again, those guys were very accomplished. At the same time, you fight in the time period you fight in. In five years, there is probably something we could pick out that works against the legacy of some of the guys now. Hell, five years ago, the whole thing was who was on TRT and how that affects how you look at guys. That's something we ain't factored in. 

I think that's my gripe with welterweight during GSP's era. Once GSP mastered wrestling on top of his incredible stand-up and good BJJ, it was lights out for everybody else because he was great at everything and with his wrestling he could dictate where the fight went. There were still a lot of specialists or guys like Koscheck who were predominantly wrestlers but could knock somebody out with an overhand right. I'm biased towards Jones and Khabib because they are fighting more complete mixed martial artists. Not everybody today is perfectly well-rounded but there's not a lot of room for guys who can only do one thing well like Fitch and Shields. Look at Aaron Pico, a  world class wrestler, and how he's determined to be a flashy knockout artist even to his own detriment. We also don't know what happens to Khabib's opponents now that he's retired. If one of the men whom Khabib mangled goes on to have a long reign, then that adds to Nurmagomedov's legacy. If they all fall to the wayside for a newcomer, then it would be similar to GSP's legacy where he finished an era. Thinking of the best of the next generation of fighters, there aren't a tonne of names that jump out at 155. Is Haqparast the best fighter under 25 at lightweight? It's all guys either in their prime or at the end of their prime. That's not an easy division to be a ranked prospect.

Also, Let's not discount Khabib's RDA win. RDA won five consecutive fights before and after the loss to Khabib and was a big lightweight. That was in the midst of his renaissance iirc, when his striking evolved and he became a more complete fighter (though his takedowns are not so hot and never have been). Rafael Cordeiro worked his magic on both RDA and Werdum.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Jiji

[Jiji]

59 minutes ago, A_K said:

Hmm .. don't buy it. Certainly not top 10. Not when 2 of your 4 wins come against 36 year old vets at the very end of long & damaging careers. But to each their own. I definitely bought into the Gaethje hype myself leading up to this fight but in hindsight it was a bit of a fool's errand .. the resume just isn't there. If Khabib stays retired however there's no reason he can't still go on to make a claim & become champion .. McGregor / Gaethje would be a great fight to see. But the rabbit-in-a-headlights nature of this fight left a very sore impression. Khabib is a true great, but this one looked like more of an utter exhibition than it should have done.

I agree that it was pretty clear Gaethje looked overwhelmed yesterday. But let's not forget the job he did on Ferguson, whom up to that point, everybody thought would be Khabib's last and best challenger despite not having the wrestling pedigree Gaethje has. Gaethje is such a weird guy to nail down. I've been wrong on him so many times, I give up. But Alvarez, Poirier, and Khabib are three all timers at lightweight, so there's no shame in losing to those three. I think his path is pretty straight forward right now though. Win a bounce-back fight against somebody in the top 10 and fight the winner of McGregor/Poirier if Conor isn't imprisoned should he win.

edit: is this talk making anybody want to go watch some old fights on Fight Pass? 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Jiji

[Elsalvajeloco]

If a guy like Aaron Pico came along in say 2006 or 2007...he's easily the future of what MMA could be even with somewhat lackluster punch resistance. He comes to MMA ten years later....just another pretty good prospect out of many. That's just scary because Pico is amazing athlete. My point is you cannot win on just sheer athleticism, and the guys now are good enough where you have to try because they won't let you just walk all over them without doing that. 

Same with a Shahbazyan or O'Malley even though they aren't on Pico's level of athleticism. UFC could have done what Bellator did for years with MVP and just let them fight random no hopers before we find out their flaws. Problem is you're going to have to take that litmus test at some point. In this era, it's sooner rather than later.

[Jiji]

I am still hoping Pico puts it all together but with that chin I don't know if sustained excellence is possible with how he fights right now. He should probably be pressuring to get inside and take guys down. He's done a bit more wrestling lately from what I've seen but still... it's the best base for MMA and he's one of the best wrestlers alive right now. He should almost always be looking for takedowns. Khabib had room for improvement with his boxing. He used that weird Iaquinta fight as a sparring session. But improving his stand-up was relatively easy for him because everybody was scared shitless of the takedown. That's what Pico should be doing imo. Instill fear of the takedown, smack dudes around a bit, when they start defending strikes over the takedown, then shoot. 

[TheVileOne]

Pico's career was totally mismanaged and mishandled though. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

16 hours ago, TheVileOne said:

Pico's career was totally mismanaged and mishandled though. 

At least in his last fight, he was like "fuck that noise" and put the guy on the ground immediately. That's somewhat encouraging as opposed to him believing he's MMA Arturo Gatti and trying to slug it out with folks.

[Hail Sabin]

DC told an interesting story about the Main Event: Gaethje all week told everyone he will not Tap you have to break it instead. Khabib could have got the finish a different way but switched to the Choke because he didn't want to hurt Gaethje in front of his parents & just put him to sleep. 

[jaedmc]

Yeah that story was insane. He wanted the armbar because it was his dad's favorite submission. Then as he was going for it, he changed his mind so as to not hurt Gaethje in front of his mom.

The fucking mythology of Khabib is going to be ridiculous. Like former Michael Jordan teammates "Lemme tell you about this one time in practice.." kinda stuff.

Even GSP had a story from the last time he saw Khabib. They were in Moscow and GSP was there for one of his buddy's fight. Khabib came up to him and told him he shouldn't stay at the hotel he was booked at, because that's where all the fans stayed. Then he told GSP about another hotel and Khabib said he already booked him a new room there. Paid for it himself.

I know financially that's not impressive, but pretty cool nonetheless.

 

[John E. Dynamite]

Khabib really adding to his mythology today on social media. Maybe if I publicly used my faith to wish facial disfigurement on world leaders I could be in the P4P discussion?

[supremebve]

6 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said:

Khabib really adding to his mythology today on social media. Maybe if I publicly used my faith to wish facial disfigurement on world leaders I could be in the P4P discussion?

The less you know about your favorite MMA fighter the better you'll be.  Quite frankly, I'm done thinking anyone in this sport is a decent human being.  

With that said, he's a brilliant fighter.  I've been watching technique breakdowns about the finishing sequence, and there probably aren't 3 fighters all-time who could pull that off.  First, the takedown was a kind of faux double leg that only existed to get Gaethje to sprawl and defend the double leg.  If you look at his feet when he goes for the double leg, they aren't in a position for him to drive into Gaethje, but unfortunately for Gaethje there is no way for him to know that.  So, like anyone would do to defend a double leg, Gaethje sprawls, and does a damn good job of it too.  Khabib, who was never trying to finish that double leg, sells it long enough for Gaethje to post his hands on the ground which essentially makes his body a jungle gym for Khabib to easily climb and take Gaethje's back.  This is not something most people would even think to do, let alone actually pull off.  Khabib used Gaethje's wrestling skills against him, he knew that Gaethje has very good take down defense and as a wrestler would be very hard to put on his back, so he decided that he would attack his defensive reaction.  It reminds me of the first Jose Aldo vs. Max Holloway fight.  Aldo spent his entire run defending the initial strike and blasting his opponents with hard ass counters, but Holloway decided that he'd throw away a strike, let Aldo counter, and then counter the counter.  Aldo's defense was too good for him to actually hit him with that initial strike any way, so he decided to use it to set up the strike that he could land.

OK, back to our regularly scheduled breakdown.  So, the back take, which is top 1% of MMA back takes, isn't a back take, it's a transition to mount.  So, he does a takedown that isn't a takedown and transitions into a back take that isn't a back take.  So he mounts Gaethje and immediately attacks an arm triangle, which a legitimate attempt at an arm triangle.  It is a feint, so that Gaethje has to raise his opposite elbow, and as soon as Gaethje tries to defend he shifts his left knee under that arm.  Khabib then pins the arm in his armpit and transitions into into an S-mount.  The key to this is the pinning of the arm.  If you pin the arm and sit back, you could legitimately break an arm, except it isn't really a submission, because in the S-guard gives the person enough space to sit up.  Except, sitting up, like Justin Gaethje did, puts you in a perfect position to be locked into a triangle choke. 

OK, so here is the fight ending sequence which started with a Justin Gaethje leg kick at 3:35 of the second round.  Khabib fakes a takedown, gets Gaethje's back, transitions to mount, attacks a fake arm triangle isolates an arm, transitions to S-mount, leans back, and locks in a triangle choke at 3:55.  From the time he throws that kick, Khabib makes him defend seven different distinct techniques in 20 seconds.  I can't stress this enough, but nobody does this.  Demian Maia is the best jiu-jistu player in the history of MMA for my money, but he doesn't have the sheer athleticism to do the fake shot back take.  He could probably pull off the transitions on the ground, but even then I don't know if he could do it that quickly.  Jacare Souza has (or had) the physical ability to do the takedown, but Jacare's strength as a jiu-jitsu practitioner is his crazy relentless top game.  Jacare probably understands how to do that arm triangle feint into the S-mount triangle, but he'd never actually do it.  He's just not someone who would ever willingly give up his top control.  The finishing sequence of this fight is an example of a man who has 100% confidence in all aspects of his grappling game.  Absolutely everything he did caught Gaethje off guard, and lead directly into putting Khabib in a more advantageous position.  It's elite level, top of the food chain, creativity, craft, and execution.  No one has ever done this better than him. 

[AxB]

So am I the only one who thinks Nurmagomedov could have finished it with the Bicep Slicer (Short Arm scissors) at the end of the first round?

Also, Volkovmania continues to run wild. Next Heavyweight Champ!