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37 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I brought this up some months back, but I think they also did sit downs with Jeff Jarrett when he came back for his final WWF run. It didn't work because they tried to blur the lines between work and shoot. It made no sense because are we to believe that wrestling is just fakity fake and someone is pulling the strings? With Dustin, I think it was way too jarring unless you plan on dropping the Goldust thing completely. The reason why the Foley ones worked is they had him basically in character as you mentioned. Those type of ideas work when you have a strong end game.

I disagree with you on the Goldust ones in that I think it could have easily gone somewhere if the effort was made, but yeah, definitely no question Foley's put all the rest to shame.

Hell, the worked shoot stuff isn't even why the Jarrett ones failed, in my opinion; it's just that they sucked. They were so ineffective, they doubled down on it, and sent him out to do the same shit in the ring (which ultimately shot himself in the foot because it led to him calling Austin 3:16 blasphemous, now whether or not that was his line, I don't know, but I don't think messing with the cash cow was good for he and Austin's existing acrimony.)

That said, I think the aztec gear was an improvement, so what do I know

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2 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I disagree with you on the Goldust ones in that I think it could have easily gone somewhere if the effort was made, but yeah, definitely no question Foley's put all the rest to shame.

Hell, the worked shoot stuff isn't even why the Jarrett ones failed, in my opinion; it's just that they sucked. They were so ineffective, they doubled down on it, and sent him out to do the same shit in the ring (which ultimately shot himself in the foot because it led to him calling Austin 3:16 blasphemous, now whether or not that was his line, I don't know, but I don't think messing with the cash cow was good for he and Austin's existing acrimony.)

That said, I think the aztec gear was an improvement, so what do I know

That's sorta the issue (especially in the Russo era) is once you see something is successful is taking the wrong things from it creatively and/or not knowing how or why the first time worked. It's easy to fuck up the recipe if you don't know your own recipe.

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28 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

That's sorta the issue (especially in the Russo era) is once you see something is successful is taking the wrong things from it creatively and/or not knowing how or why the first time worked. It's easy to fuck up the recipe if you don't know your own recipe.

That and also breaking the rules of the show. The Foley interview, while shooty in nature, didn't really "break" the rules of what we expected out of WWF or the Mankind character. He destroyed the whole "I was locked in a sewer with rats b/c I couldn't play piano" shit but he brought in the fact that he was still a loner, outcast but just someone that people could relate to. Contrast that with something like, say, Buff Bagwell losing a match on purpose to La Parka and going, "Did I do a good enough 'job' for ya?!" That breaks the rules of the show and what we know about the Buff Bagwell character. Buff Bagwell being upset that new management is coming in and that he may not get the same opportunities is a decent storyline. Buff Bagwell losing on purpose in order to throw off the plans of the new writers or whatever the fuck the Powers That Be were supposed to be breaks the rules of the show b/c then we're supposed to think that everybody just does what whoever is writing the show tells them.

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I wonder if the Goldust ones would've turned out better if Dustin was in a better place mentally and physically. I can't remember the exact timeline but IIRC, he broke his hand pretty badly in a match against Road Dogg around this time and he was battling substance issues as well.

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The new Class for the WWE performance center :

EVOLVE names Brandi Lauren, Curt Stallion, Anthony Green, Leon Ruff, Joe Gacy, Josh Briggs. Indie ref Jake Clemons and NCAA All-American amateur wrestler Jacob Kasper.

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I had forgot about the Dustin segments and don't remember any of the Jarrett segments. Dustin came off well but even then it didn't seem like it worked, like they didn't go far enough with the face turn. He probably should have changed entirely. 

Foley's though are burned into my brain. As a bullied kid those were manna. 

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Just now, Curt McGirt said:

I had forgot about the Dustin segments and don't remember any of the Jarrett segments. Dustin came off well but even then it didn't seem like it worked, like they didn't go far enough with the face turn. He probably should have changed entirely. 

Foley's though are burned into my brain. As a bullied kid those were manna. 

Didn't they do the weird preacher stuff and then immediately have his wife start banging Pillman or Val Venis? Like I said earlier, the timeline is a bit fuzzy but I think there were just so many factors going against him at that point.

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1 hour ago, D.Z said:

The new Class for the WWE performance center :

EVOLVE names Brandi Lauren, Curt Stallion, Anthony Green, Leon Ruff, Joe Gacy, Josh Briggs. Indie ref Jake Clemons and NCAA All-American amateur wrestler Jacob Kasper.

 

 

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20 hours ago, sydneybrown said:

I don't get that because you look at how Hillbilly Jim was brought in, Vince was going to make him a MAJOR star.  He was literally one of the first LJN figures, and he was on the Rock 'n Wrestling cartoon.  He lasted three months before he got injured and he barely ever wrestled again.  The only legit angle he took bumps with was the Manager of the Year Award, and he only did tags or six-mans on TV thereafter.  The only singles matches he had were usually on Prime Time, and they were short.  Ironically, he's the only WWF guy I know who is undefeated against Andre the Giant. (Studd quit and Jim replaced him and took the countout or DQ wins.)

I take it more that Uncle Elmer SUCKED, Cousin Junior quit randomly, and Cousin Luke was arguably worse.

It's not just Hillbilly Jim et al. it's that there's has been a long line of Redneck/Hillbilly gimmicks from the Godwins to Dutch Mantels Zebekiah character to whom ever else I'm forgetting that it seems like Vince has animosity towards southerners 

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7 minutes ago, zendragon said:

It's not just Hillbilly Jim et al. it's that there's has been a long line of Redneck/Hillbilly gimmicks from the Godwins to Dutch Mantels Zebekiah character to whom ever else I'm forgetting that it seems like Vince has animosity towards southerners 

In that case, you might as well inclue Jeff Jarrett. 

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Vince has a ton of insecurities. The fact that he's from the south, the fact that people called him Junior, anytime someone "leaves him" (Savage, Rock, etc)... and that's not even touching his insane micromanagement or ridiculous changes to common words/phrases ("Championship Opportunity", "Medical Facility"). 

He's a 75 year old former(?) cocaine and steroid user who sleeps 2 hours a day and drinks several energy drinks a day. Expecting any sort of logical, rational thinking from him is hopeless. 

Edited by BrianS81177
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3 hours ago, cwoy2j said:

I wonder if the Goldust ones would've turned out better if Dustin was in a better place mentally and physically. I can't remember the exact timeline but IIRC, he broke his hand pretty badly in a match against Road Dogg around this time and he was battling substance issues as well.

Under the Goldust character he didn't have many good matches until around '09 . Ironically that match with Razor at the Rumble was one of his best matches he had in that early run as Goldust, the King of The Ring match with Ahmed and a few matches he had with Bret. I don't know whether it was the latex bodysuit,  the weight issues or the drugs but when he came back the last decade he was the Natural Dustin Rhodes in the Goldust gear. Amazing shit. He and Finlay could've headlined the whole Federation for all I cared

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9 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

To add to this, I've heard (probably in that same Hall shoot tbh) that X-Pac was the 'can/can't work' bar back then. 

I recall that Owen Hart was also in that small group of wrestlers they trusted to find out the answer to "do we have something here with this guy?" I believe both Kurt Angle and The Rock were placed in dark matches fairly early on with Owen, whose positioning on the card was probably a bit too high at that point to "work dark with green guys" for any reason other than testing out someone they thought could be a future star. 

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I found the Wrestling Observer Yearbooks online the other day.  Owen was flat out called the 3rd best wrestler in the world in the Observer in 1987 (by the readers, for the record.)  WWF picks him up, does nothing with him, but as a kid I LOVED The Blue Blazer, but once he's treated as a loser, I stopped caring.  Hey, guess what hasn't changed after 30 years?  

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10 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

@Casey

Re: Cagematch

I did similar research last night also using the Observer. There seems to be some discrepancies on various platforms. For example, I think Cagematch has WWF in Anaheim on 7/27/96 while Dave (or whomever did the results) had them in Louisville. I did an unrelated search through Cagematch for NWA results around 1990 earlier that day and there are some discrepancies in terms of venues/locations other sites have. There are also shows missing altogether.

I am going to go with Ross probably having a hazy memory. However, that's still incredible that guys who have been there for several years don't have the courage of an Austin who basically never had a run as top guy anywhere else really prior to being there.

Dave had them in Anaheim on 7/27. They were on a West Coast swing then. Dave reviewed the show from the Cow Palace that was on 7/25. Was in the August 6th, 1996 issue of the Observer. 

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21 minutes ago, ChesterCopperpot said:

Dave had them in Anaheim on 7/27. They were on a West Coast swing then. Dave reviewed the show from the Cow Palace that was on 7/25. Was in the August 6th, 1996 issue of the Observer. 

Let me clarify that.

I meant 6/27. Cagematch has WWF doing a show in both Louisville and Anaheim on that day. I think someone entered that 7/27 show in Anaheim on both days, but with all the matches in different order. Plus, I don't think Austin was on those Midwest shows because he busted his lip at King of the Ring.

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Oh apparently that Louisville show is the famous show where Aldo Montoya and Duke Droese had to wrestle each twice for 90 minutes so the boys could get to the building.

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5 hours ago, BrianS81177 said:

Vince has a ton of insecurities. The fact that he's from the south, the fact that people called him Junior, anytime someone "leaves him" (Savage, Rock, etc)... and that's not even touching his insane micromanagement or ridiculous changes to common words/phrases ("Championship Opportunity", "Medical Facility"). 

He's a 75 year old former(?) cocaine and steroid user who sleeps 2 hours a day and drinks several energy drinks a day. Expecting any sort of logical, rational thinking from him is hopeless. 

I dunno...I was watching some old Superstars episodes from like 89. Vince and Jesse were totally out of it because I think they were recording the voice overs at like 3 in the morning or whenever Vince feels like recording the commentary. You had Jesse totally out of character and just talking like there isn't a match going in the ring. Absolutely no energy. Maybe it was just the episode I was watching, but I was praying someone gave this man some coke to snort. I expected someone to yawn in the middle of the match.

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11 hours ago, The Idiot King said:

For the Attitude Era, outside of X-Pac and Goldust, maybe I'm way off-base here but: Val Venis? 

I can see that. One of the reasons they hired CM Punk was because him and Val had a pretty excellent match on Heat.

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Ok, now I watched the aforementioned Flair-Steiner match from the Clash. Steiner's lack of killer instinct is noticeable and is getting ridiculous by the end, where the announcers are telling him to get on Flair more, as the time is rapidly running out on him. Even Rick on the outside is doing way more in order to win the match for Scott than Scott himself appears to be. For such a matemathical genius, he sure has trouble telling time. Or maybe that was the problem, he had a differecnt concept of it, even back in '91?

It was easy to notice the botch on the over the top rope spot ESL described, but if you were going to go over the rope regardless, Scott did make the adjustment about as quickly as humanly possible. Not that it didn't look stupid, but still. If he wanted to improvise, he could have slingshot himself face-first into the canvas then rolled out to the floor clutching his face, if the point was to get both men on the floor. This is of course easy for me to say with a 30 year hindsight, when there was a split second to make the decision at the time.

The match was definitely disappointing and considering how unprofessionally brutally Scott went after the undercard opposition, it was inherently stupid for Steiner to put on a sloppy sleeper, when he should have been Dragon suplexing Flair repeatedly until he shat himself all over the ring. You hit a Tiger bomb and end up in a pinning position and NOT go for the pin? Seriously WTF? Maybe Scott just really did not want to beat Flair for the title, because he wanted to remain in a tag team with his brother? I mean there is no reason why he could not have done both, but I guess he was young and insecure at the time, huh?

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I think Owen is still one of the most underrated talents of the last 35 years. There's really nothing he couldn't do well..  he can have a great match and do so in a variety of ways,  maybe he's using more psychology or maybe he's using his high flying skills..   you want him to cut a fiery promo he can do it.  You want him to cut a total dickish promo he can do it.  He was a genuinely funny guy.  He could be intense like the rest of the family. He could work WWF style or work Japan. He could get the best out of a young talent.  etc... 

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2 hours ago, sydneybrown said:

I found the Wrestling Observer Yearbooks online the other day.  Owen was flat out called the 3rd best wrestler in the world in the Observer in 1987 (by the readers, for the record.)  WWF picks him up, does nothing with him, but as a kid I LOVED The Blue Blazer, but once he's treated as a loser, I stopped caring.  Hey, guess what hasn't changed after 30 years?  

I loved the crap out of Blue Blazer as a kid! I did not know he was Owen, but I did figure it out by 1992, when I saw a pic in WWF magazine of Owen doing a top rope splash. He had his arms (and hands) identically to Blazer, when splashing someone from the top. I had only two Blazer squashes to choose from, but it was still pretty obvious. I was pretty proud of myself for figuring it out by myself at the time.

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4 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Oh apparently that Louisville show is the famous show where Aldo Montoya and Duke Droese had to wrestle each twice for 90 minutes so the boys could get to the building.

I was AT THIS SHOW. Jesus H Christ this is my 7th circle of wrestling hell to watch the god damn man of war vs the dumpster in the match that wouldn't die. Giant Gonzales vs Virgil was the previous holder of that crown then this shit show happened. No one went home happy this day, my friends. No one

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