OCTOBER 2020 WRESTLING TALK

[Casey]

4 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Imagine the set of nuts on this guy to be there for a handful of months and be like, "No, I'm main eventing these cards."

No one deserves to be compared to this guy.

So, doing some back tracking - Mero debuted at WrestleMania in 1996, so I looked for house shows after that date in LA in 1996. Nothing came up, so if Cagematch is to be believed, then this story took place on the January 5th 1997 house show. Every card in California in 1996 was him versus Savio Vega in a No DQ match, smack-dab in the middle of the card, and sometimes even with Marc Mero slotted above him in the match order. Early 1997 he had some matches against Undertaker and Michaels, but none of them occurred in LA until 1/5/97.

On that 1997 house show, he faced (and beat) Shawn Michaels, and by that time he had already turned the corner into the anti-hero babyface badass, feuded with Bret Hart, and was about two weeks away from winning the Royal Rumble. The only thing that doesn't add up is them booking him in the middle of the card so he can get a head start on driving to TV. Unless he just did angles or interviews the next night, which wouldn't be listed on Cagematch obviously. And I just looked, and the RAW from 1/6/97 was taped on 12/30/96. So that doesn't add up.

I'd say by 1997 he was well within the territory of "Vince will let him do whatever he wants".

Edited October 7, 2020 by Casey
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[Zakk_Sabbath]

5 hours ago, Zimbra said:

What was the Scott Hall/Dustin Rhodes thing?

 

5 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

When Goldust came in, Scott/Razor didn't want to work with him. I think the idea was he wasn't comfortable with the touchy feely and kissing stuff.

This is correct. Saw a semi-recent Hall shoot and it boiled down to "Think of the children"

[Curt McGirt]

What a weenie. Uber-machismo cis guy vs. drag queen is a perfect wrestling formula. The only problem is Goldust was a heel. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Counterpoint: I don't want to get molested on television because my wife and kids are watching is a reasonable complaint.

FWIW I think Hall was starting to be on his way out then because his family apparently came up as an excuse especially when related to his pay. "I have a family to feed" seemed to be a recurring theme during his final months in WWF.

 

[Curt McGirt]

I wasn't thinking about that, I was thinking about "think of the women and children" as in OTHER people's. Like, a "we don't want to expose them to homosexuality" typa thing because he just didn't want to get fondled by Dustin. I guess if it's his family it's a reasonable argument, besides there are other people to put with Dustin. 

And then of course they put him with Piper. Great Job! 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Curt McGirt

[Elsalvajeloco]

@Casey

Re: Cagematch

I did similar research last night also using the Observer. There seems to be some discrepancies on various platforms. For example, I think Cagematch has WWF in Anaheim on 7/27/96 while Dave (or whomever did the results) had them in Louisville. I did an unrelated search through Cagematch for NWA results around 1990 earlier that day and there are some discrepancies in terms of venues/locations other sites have. There are also shows missing altogether.

I am going to go with Ross probably having a hazy memory. However, that's still incredible that guys who have been there for several years don't have the courage of an Austin who basically never had a run as top guy anywhere else really prior to being there.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

Brock is the only guy like Austin who eventually got what he wanted, and management didn’t fight him on it, other than that time after WM XX, but eventually won the case, and then cameback a bigger star. There are some other examples, but Brock, and Austin have similar chips on their shoulders.

Edited October 7, 2020 by LoneWolf&Subs

[Elsalvajeloco]

30 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

I wasn't thinking about that, I was thinking about "think of the women and children" as in OTHER people's. Like, a "we don't want to expose them to homosexuality" typa thing because he just didn't want to get fondled by Dustin.

IIRC Razor was his first program. If not, it was the one right after that because Scott is gone two or three months into 1996. I don't think he wanted to be a guinea pig for that gimmick.

Scott also had problems doing a program with other folks namely Douglas. However, going through the shoots, I think that was on Douglas because he might have had an over inflated perspective of how physical the ECW style was. Douglas makes it sound like they were doing some Kawada and Kobashi shit every night in ECW, and how he could have shot on Shawn when Shawn acted like an ass at a house show in Michigan (he went backstage and told Bill Watts to go get "his boy").

The WWF style at the time was bump like crazy and basically use the ring as an instrument for your theatrics. However, if you go watch the IYH match with Douglas vs. Razor, Douglas is scared to take a bump and takes the turnbuckle like shit. Scott is giving him a lot and selling for him, but Douglas seems to be not willing be as physical. In Douglas' defense, that WWF ring was hard as hell. However, you cannot come in with the bravado of an ECW guy and then take pansy ass bumps. I could see the WWF folks being down on Douglas from that point on because he couldn't even have a good match against Razor, which was the litmus test at the time. Shit, that is probably why they booked Dustin with Razor as soon as he came in.

In this case, I have to side with Hall. The Goldust thing...that could go either way.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco

[Curt McGirt]

Funny because you could easily slot Dustin in the Litmus Test spot.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

11 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Funny because you could easily slot Dustin in the Litmus Test spot.

To add to this, I've heard (probably in that same Hall shoot tbh) that X-Pac was the 'can/can't work' bar back then. 

[Curt McGirt]

Today it would probably be Cesaro. I wonder what some of the other era guys would have been, like Attitude, '80s, etc.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

5 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Today it would probably be Cesaro. I wonder what some of the other era guys would have been, like Attitude, '80s, etc.

I haven't watched WWE in a while but you're probably right. I could see the argument for like a Ziggler or a Kane maybe as well, though that's probably more last decade

[Curt McGirt]

Actually nowadays pretty much everyone is a workrate guy or has come through NXT and taught the WWE style so there isn't a need for a designated worker like that. 

[The Idiot King]

For the Attitude Era, outside of X-Pac and Goldust, maybe I'm way off-base here but: Val Venis? Depending on how you define the era in either direction, I guess it could stretch to include Benoit, Christian, Savio and then you have Bob Holly and Al Snow as solid-if-not-exactly-ever-over guys that new talent always seemed to have a couple early go-rounds with.

[SirSmUgly]

Goldust's first real program was indeed with Razor. He squashed Bam Bam in his debut program which wasn't really a program so much as a showcase for the Goldust character. Then, Goldust went Razor --> Piper --> Savio as his major feuds. 

Razor's "what if my kid gets asked about the feud at school" excuse is pretty weak, but whatever; he was on his way out soon anyway. 

That initial Goldust run was hot, especially when Marlena was added, but Elsalvajeloco is absolutely correct in his assessment, and I would wager that post-Warrior feud, they immediately cool on him. I mean, by mid-1997, he was working with the fourth-most-over member of the Hart Foundation, and he came in working Razor, Roddy, the Undertaker for a bit, etc. 

[SirSmUgly]

In fact, as point of comparison, and based off of something Elsalvaje said earlier, Goldust and Mankind briefly had an alliance against the Undertaker in 1996, but look at where they were by Survivor Series 1996. Goldust was being fed to The Rock in his debut in a mid-card 4-on-4 match, but Mankind was wrestling a feud-ender with The Undertaker. Even though Mick felt that he had cooled off once the Three Faces of Foley stuff had sort of wore out his welcome, he was still in a position where they'd program him against Austin or 'Taker and he had the talent and trust of Vince to elevated to a level by the end of 1998 that Dustin could only dream of hitting. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Smelly McUgly

[Zakk_Sabbath]

9 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

In fact, as point of comparison, and based off of something Elsalvaje said earlier, Goldust and Marlena had an alliance against the Undertaker in 1996, but look at where they were by Survivor Series 1996. Goldust was being fed to The Rock in his debut in a mid-card 4-on-4 match, but Mankind was wrestling a feud-ender with The Undertaker. Even though Mick felt that he had cooled off once the Three Faces of Foley stuff had sort of wore out his welcome, he was still in a position where they'd program him against Austin or 'Taker and he had the talent and trust of Vince to elevated to a level by the end of 1998 that Dustin could only dream of hitting. 

Not that I disagree with you, but I think that's also probably the ceiling for a character like Goldust. That Dustin was able to make it work for decades afterwards is a testament to him. Foley getting to that level was because he was really hitting his stride as the shunned corporate Mankind - nutty boiler room Mankind wasn't making it that far, much like the Goldust gimmick as-is didnt. Does Dustin have Foley's 1998/1999 if they slot Goldust in that role? Is Goldust a 3-time WWF champion if they give him something other than "lol gay, that's scary" and the character evolves into something with a few more layers? Who knows. 

[SirSmUgly]

I think they had the chance to elevate Dustin if they wanted to. They did those sit-down interviews with him and Marlena out of character.

It's funny because they then had Mick do them partially-in-character as Mankind, and they showed the roof diving video and had him talk about being bullied in his childhood and mandible claw Jim Ross, and Foley reported in his book that Vince saw them as they were filmed and basically that was the point where he had that belief in Mick's ability to sell a program at a ME level.

I agree with that, but I also think the Dustin stuff where he spoke directly to Dusty and said that he was proud of what he was able to do as Goldust even if his dad wasn't proud of him was also about as compelling. I guess Vince didn't think so, but if you shift that character in some way - maybe by letting him be Dustin Rhodes, but willing to use what he learned from being Goldust to get under the skin of his competitors, IDK - I think it could still work.

I just don't think Vince saw him in that way, though. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Smelly McUgly

[nofuture]

Looks like Renee isn't quite done with WWE yet.

[Ziggy]

19 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

 

If you think about it, Mero, Rhodes, and Austin were all at the same level (TV/US title) for several years in WCW. However, when Austin has a chance to work with Mero at a house show in Los Angeles when both are now in WWF, he turns it down. Now I dunno why he turned it down explicitly, but I can only venture a guess that Austin knew he was now above working the same guys he had just worked in WCW not too long before. I  was justified. 

Austin refusing to work with Mero had more to do with the fact that he just recently let his Wife Sable (a female nom wrestler) Powerbomb him. In '98 that's a good enough excuse to work with someone if you're the Top guy.

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

Austin refusing to work with Mero had more to do with the fact that he just recently let his Wife Sable (a female nom wrestler) Powerbomb him. In '98 that's a good enough excuse to work with someone if you're the Top guy.

You have @The Great MLon ignore.

[Elsalvajeloco]

39 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

I think they had the chance to elevate Dustin if they wanted to. They did those sit-down interviews with him and Marlena out of character.

It's funny because they then had Mick do them partially-in-character as Mankind, and they showed the roof diving video and had him talk about being bullied in his childhood and mandible claw Jim Ross, and Foley reported in his book that Vince saw them as they were filmed and basically that was the point where he had that belief in Mick's ability to sell a program at a ME level.

I agree with that, but I also think the Dustin stuff where he spoke directly to Dusty and said that he was proud of what he was able to do as Goldust even if his dad wasn't proud of him was also about as compelling. I guess Vince didn't think so, but if you shift that character in some way - maybe by letting him be Dustin Rhodes, but willing to use what he learned from being Goldust to get under the skin of his competitors, IDK - I think it could still work.

I just don't think Vince saw him in that way, though. 

I brought this up some months back, but I think they also did sit downs with Jeff Jarrett when he came back for his final WWF run. It didn't work because they tried to blur the lines between work and shoot. It made no sense because are we to believe that wrestling is just fakity fake and someone is pulling the strings? With Dustin, I think it was way too jarring unless you plan on dropping the Goldust thing completely. The reason why the Foley ones worked is they had him basically in character as you mentioned. Those type of ideas work when you have a strong end game.

[Ziggy]

15 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You have @The Great MLon ignore.

Just noticed his post , should read the rest of the thread. I with Razor did go on and work Goldust at mania though but Piper replacing was just as dope. He even mentioned in a promo that he's dealt with Adrian Adonis so he know how to handle his mind games, that was a nice touch. I remember Razor was supposed to team with Savio in the Tag title tournament. I'm guessing Goldust would've costed them to get eliminated to keep up the Razor feud. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Ziggy

[Zakk_Sabbath]

37 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I brought this up some months back, but I think they also did sit downs with Jeff Jarrett when he came back for his final WWF run. It didn't work because they tried to blur the lines between work and shoot. It made no sense because are we to believe that wrestling is just fakity fake and someone is pulling the strings? With Dustin, I think it was way too jarring unless you plan on dropping the Goldust thing completely. The reason why the Foley ones worked is they had him basically in character as you mentioned. Those type of ideas work when you have a strong end game.

I disagree with you on the Goldust ones in that I think it could have easily gone somewhere if the effort was made, but yeah, definitely no question Foley's put all the rest to shame.

Hell, the worked shoot stuff isn't even why the Jarrett ones failed, in my opinion; it's just that they sucked. They were so ineffective, they doubled down on it, and sent him out to do the same shit in the ring (which ultimately shot himself in the foot because it led to him calling Austin 3:16 blasphemous, now whether or not that was his line, I don't know, but I don't think messing with the cash cow was good for he and Austin's existing acrimony.)

That said, I think the aztec gear was an improvement, so what do I know

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I disagree with you on the Goldust ones in that I think it could have easily gone somewhere if the effort was made, but yeah, definitely no question Foley's put all the rest to shame.

Hell, the worked shoot stuff isn't even why the Jarrett ones failed, in my opinion; it's just that they sucked. They were so ineffective, they doubled down on it, and sent him out to do the same shit in the ring (which ultimately shot himself in the foot because it led to him calling Austin 3:16 blasphemous, now whether or not that was his line, I don't know, but I don't think messing with the cash cow was good for he and Austin's existing acrimony.)

That said, I think the aztec gear was an improvement, so what do I know

That's sorta the issue (especially in the Russo era) is once you see something is successful is taking the wrong things from it creatively and/or not knowing how or why the first time worked. It's easy to fuck up the recipe if you don't know your own recipe.