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MLB OFFSEASON - Season Resumes 2/17/21

RIPPA

By RIPPA
in BASEBALL

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Tabe

Tabe

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Kuetsar said:

Valid? Sure, but recognize stats produced at levels(that are at best AAAA) as equal to MLB is bullshit. It wasn't their fault_especially Negro leagues) but they shouldn't be treated equally.

Yeah.  Why would MLB recognize Japan League stats?  I mean, other than saying "yep, those things happened" like you would NCAA stats from 2017 or something.  Japanese baseball isn't major league level.  

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EdA

EdA

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Ehh.  You can argue MLB stats pre-integration shouldn't be recognized either.  Or that Negro League stats not against the white leagues shouldn't be.  Heck, MLB counts the Federal and Player's League stats - and those were poor imitations of leagues. 

Shoot, you can argue the quality of play in certain eras of MLB aren't totally valid (like the AL in the 50's aside from the Yankees Dynasty or the Deadball Era and 19th Century baseball in general).  Last I checked, Cy Young was still credited with 511 wins and...it's a real stretch to think an 1890's pitcher could beat a decent college team of today.

The leap in logic to consider Japan (or even the PCL) is more of a stathead overarching concept and comes from now accepting the Negro Leagues as valid.  For example, if we accept Josh Gibson as a HOFer (and we should, for sure) and we only look at the stats in league games, we see a poor candidate.  But we know he barnstormed, played countless undocumented exhibitions and played winter league in Latin America - and all that combined creates his myth.  So we're in fact, appreciating ALL he accomplished even if his stats that will now show on B-Ref or whatever are poor.  So in appreciating the whole picture, it's only a hop skip and jump to start appreciating and accepting other leagues - including Japan.

MLB will never recognize Japan Leagues in my lifetime, if ever - Japan has its own HOF after all.  And it's not like other sports leagues don't dismiss what they don't understand/mesh with (the NFL with the CFL, the NBA with the ABA).  But in the stathead community this probably will open doors to giving more consideration to Japanese stars as greats alongside the usual cast of characters we know well.

 Plus, if it gets Lefty O'Doul in the NBHOF it would be worth it.

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odessasteps

odessasteps

Posted
Posted (edited)

I've always said Japanese stats should be taken into account as a small factor in someone's HOF candicay like Ichiro (who now admittedly doesn't need them to bolster his credenrials). 

Not added into his MLB stats but to show the breadth of his entire playing career. Similar to a player who played in the Negro Leagues and the MLB. 

(Not meaning to start  HOF debate. Please no)

 

Edited by odessasteps
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DangerMark

DangerMark

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, Tabe said:

 Why would MLB recognize Japan League stats?

I would argue that as the governing body of Baseball in the US, MLB shouldn't have to recognise NPB stats, but that's because Japanese Baseball has its own governing body.

I think only recognising the AL & NL as so-called Major Leagues is a more defensible stance than recognising some of these other defunct leagues as Majors but not the Negro Leagues; but since that's not the case, I would say recognise them for what they were, which was the highest level that a significant number of players could achieve. That means counting their stats.

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OSJ

OSJ

Posted
Posted
On 12/17/2020 at 4:33 PM, EdA said:

Ehh.  You can argue MLB stats pre-integration shouldn't be recognized either.  Or that Negro League stats not against the white leagues shouldn't be.  Heck, MLB counts the Federal and Player's League stats - and those were poor imitations of leagues. 

Shoot, you can argue the quality of play in certain eras of MLB aren't totally valid (like the AL in the 50's aside from the Yankees Dynasty or the Deadball Era and 19th Century baseball in general).  Last I checked, Cy Young was still credited with 511 wins and...it's a real stretch to think an 1890's pitcher could beat a decent college team of today.

The leap in logic to consider Japan (or even the PCL) is more of a stathead overarching concept and comes from now accepting the Negro Leagues as valid.  For example, if we accept Josh Gibson as a HOFer (and we should, for sure) and we only look at the stats in league games, we see a poor candidate.  But we know he barnstormed, played countless undocumented exhibitions and played winter league in Latin America - and all that combined creates his myth.  So we're in fact, appreciating ALL he accomplished even if his stats that will now show on B-Ref or whatever are poor.  So in appreciating the whole picture, it's only a hop skip and jump to start appreciating and accepting other leagues - including Japan.

MLB will never recognize Japan Leagues in my lifetime, if ever - Japan has its own HOF after all.  And it's not like other sports leagues don't dismiss what they don't understand/mesh with (the NFL with the CFL, the NBA with the ABA).  But in the stathead community this probably will open doors to giving more consideration to Japanese stars as greats alongside the usual cast of characters we know well.

 Plus, if it gets Lefty O'Doul in the NBHOF it would be worth it.

I'll have to admit to a moment of shock realizing that O'Doul wasn't already enshrined (as he should be). As an ambassador for the game, few have done more than O'Doul. (BTW: His restaurant in SF was pretty cool, I was expecting a lot more baseball memorabilia, but what was there was really cool.)

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sabremike

sabremike

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Posted

Of the 3 HOF's for sports played outside this country the Baseball one is unique as unlike the Hockey and Basketball ones that induct players from around the world the Baseball one is only (With the exception of the Negro Leagues) for MLB.

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sabremike

sabremike

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Posted
On 12/22/2020 at 1:14 AM, Tabe said:

The CFL just cried a little bit. 

Trust me I'm aware of it, but it's not the same code of football and even sadder: Years back the actual CFL HOF shut down and now exists in a scaled down version in the club level at Tim Hortons Field in Hamilton.

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sabremike

sabremike

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, odessasteps said:

RIP Phil Niekro age 81.

Seventh HOF to pass away this year. 

He was the Yankees starter in the first game I ever went to at Yankee Stadium in the summer of 1985 when I was 7 years old. It was Glove Day and it set the record for largest crowd ever at post renovation YS. Remember my dad telling me that if his knuckler was working he'd be mowing everyone down but if it wasn't he was going to get lit up. It wasn't and he got lit up bad by the defending champ Tigers.

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Tabe

Tabe

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Posted
14 hours ago, odessasteps said:

 

Do they get 2018 Blake Snell who won a Cy Young?  Do they get 2017 and 2019 Blake Snell who missed a bunch of starts and didn't qualify for the ERA title?  2020 Snell who average 4 innings per start?

I like this pickup it's definitely not a sure-thing.

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Serious Darius Bagfelt

Serious Darius Bagfelt

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Tabe said:

Do they get 2018 Blake Snell who won a Cy Young?  Do they get 2017 and 2019 Blake Snell who missed a bunch of starts and didn't qualify for the ERA title?  2020 Snell who average 4 innings per start?

I like this pickup it's definitely not a sure-thing.

That's Tampa's magic.  More likely than not San Diego has just picked up Chris Archer the sequel

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