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SEPT 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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59 minutes ago, Matt D said:

We have highlighted the heel Tito in Japan trios multiple times in the last year. Come on.

Ok?  I’ll defer to you on this one, but I apparently haven’t read whatever thread this came up in.

Here’s one of James Beard’s comments from the WrestlingClassics board:

 

 posted 07-22-2007 07:12 AM                      
I worked with Tito in Japan quite a few times and he pretty much worked the same way he did in the states and the Japanese fans usually accepted him as a baby. He did work against some Japanese wrestlers in both singles and tag matches and he would step it up a bit in getting rough, but he was never an out and out heel type.  


 

 

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1 hour ago, Matt D said:

We have highlighted the heel Tito in Japan trios multiple times in the last year. Come on.

Yeah, I remember it now. There was a niggling doubt in my mind when I posted that question. That match you guys pieced together. I watched it as part of Secret Santo.  It was Tito, Chavo, and Andre working a trios match in Japan. Tito was mainly in there to take bumps and perhaps he was kinda sorta working heel, but he was teamed with Andre who was totally the rampaging bad guy in that match. Fascinating stuff. Surprised it slipped my mind.

 

 

Edited by gordi
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5 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Tully worked as a babyface in Florida in the 70s. There might be footage out there, not 100% on that. 

Tully was the face vs Douglas in ECW, no?

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6 hours ago, Eoae said:

Ok?  I’ll defer to you on this one, but I apparently haven’t read whatever thread this came up in.

Here’s one of James Beard’s comments from the WrestlingClassics board:

 

 posted 07-22-2007 07:12 AM                      
I worked with Tito in Japan quite a few times and he pretty much worked the same way he did in the states and the Japanese fans usually accepted him as a baby. He did work against some Japanese wrestlers in both singles and tag matches and he would step it up a bit in getting rough, but he was never an out and out heel type.  


 

 

I don’t consider certain periods of Japan to determine your face/heel allegiance. Sometimes you worked a dominant fashion that made you look like a bully, and in other matches you would be on the other end of that offense.

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I’m watching old Hansen matches, and it’s pretty clear he’s putting a foreign object into his elbow pad before he hits the lariat. I’m also sure that the tug was initially meant to mean he was loading up his elbow pad which carried a device of some kind. The match with Andre alludes to this with the big man pulling out his own questionable elbow pad at the very end. When was this just retconned away as a clean finisher?

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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41 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

I don’t consider certain periods of Japan to determine your face/heel allegiance. Sometimes you worked a dominant fashion that made you look like a bully, and in other matches you would be on the other end of that offense.

Tito and Chavo were stooging heel buddies for Andre there, with the whole unit working to get heat from the crowd. Different from what Beard described and it’s a much clearer performance than, let’s say, Steamboat working slightly more aggressive in Japan in the early 80s or the 89 matches I’ve just seen with him where he had no idea what he was supposed to be as a traveling champ halfheartedly trying to pull the hair but praising his opponents after the match. 

That said, it's one match, an attraction match with Andre, and a match that wasn't in western circulation until the last year. But if we were litigating this in the court of pro wrestling conventional wisdom, I'd feel pretty confident submitting that match for the record. That said, I also understand the argument that Japan should, at the most put an * next to someone's name.  

Edited by Matt D
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12 hours ago, just drew said:

Paul Roma?

This was already commented on, but not only was Roma a babyface, I think he would have made a great babyface player 1 for a wrestling video game: strength, speed, agility and wrestling abilty combined with a great looks, but zero character and/or charisma! Makes all of the opponents look out landish and colourful in comparison.

I enjoyed Roma through out his career, as I have pointed out a few times over at WWE Network discusson.

Edited by Shartnado
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The Sheik teamed up with Dusty in 1988 for a tag match in Detroit against Murdoch and Sullivan - he turned either mid-match or after the match (and Murdoch turned face at the same time to save Dusty or something), but he technically began the match as a face.

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40 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Remember when Flair turned face for his feud against Arn, but it was ultimately a ruse to swerve Sting. Does that count as a turn?

Yeah, that is really tricky one! At what point did the wheels start turning in Flair's head? The way the Flair-Arn feud was presented, it would seem like a whole bunch of trouble to go through just to get to sucker punch Sting one more time! Personally, I at least like to think that the Flair-Arn match itself was real and after getting that out of their system, they went "What the hell are we doing? Shouldn't we be fucking up Sting, like the good old days?" Then they empty up the bar from every drop of booze and go "You know who we should call? Pillman! He did good job kicking your head in, in our match!"

Edited by Shartnado
Remembered Pillman was already involved...
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33 minutes ago, Shartnado said:

Yeah, that is really tricky one! At what point did the wheels start turning in Flair's head? The way the Flair-Arn feud was presented, it would seem like a whole bunch of trouble to go through just to get to sucker punch Sting one more time! 

I mean, there's a precedent for that.  My main issue with Flair being the Black Scorpion a few years earlier is... why would Flair go to all that trouble just to mess with Sting's head yet again.  There were much easier ways to mess with Sting.

In the 80's, Flair and the Horsemen were Al Capone types doing things the Chicago Way ("He pulls a knife, you pull a gun; he sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue.").  Piss off Flair or get in his way and you could expect to get a beat down from the Horsemen.

Somehow, in the 90's, Flair became a James Bond villain and started concocting overly-elaborate schemes to mess with people.  Sting's lucky he didn't get strapped to a rocket that launched him into the sun after a mouse ran through a maze and ate a piece of cheese, activating a tripwire that somehow started the rocket's propulsion system.

I'm guessing morphing into a super-villain is what drove Flair crazy and landed him in the asylum.

Edited by Eoae
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3 minutes ago, Eoae said:

I mean, there's a precedent for that.  My main issue with Flair being the Black Scorpion a few years earlier is... why would Flair go to all that trouble just to mess with Sting's head yet again.  There were much easier ways to mess with Sting.

In the 80's, Flair and the Horsemen were Al Capone types doing things the Chicago Way ("He pulls a knife, you pull a gun; he sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue.").  Piss off Flair or get in his way and you could expect to get a beat down from the Horsemen.

Somehow, in the 90's, Flair became a James Bond villain and started concocting overly-elaborate schemes to mess with people.  Sting's lucky he didn't get strapped to a rocket that launched him into the sun after a mouse ran through a maze and ate a piece of cheese, activating a tripwire that somehow started the rocket's propulsion system.

I'm guessing morphing into a super-villain is what drove Flair crazy and landed him in the asylum.

I must say, you bring up a very valid point.

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From a kayfabe perspective, the end result of both the Black Scorpion and Flair's 95 swerves is that he wins back the World title shortly thereafter. 

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13 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

What are some other GREAT TV matches that come to mind?  I don't want to count Clash/SNME in that as they are specials.  Let's just go with weekly TVs.. 

There's been points when it feels like we got **** matches on the TV on the regular, it's hard to find ones that stand out aside from the usual suspects so I can only remember the weird ones. A recent match is that marathon Gauntlet Match from Raw in 2018, great showing from Seth Rollins (and I'm not a fan) and great storytelling. The Gauntlet with Kofi was also fantastic.

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14 minutes ago, Godfrey said:

There's been points when it feels like we got **** matches on the TV on the regular, it's hard to find ones that stand out aside from the usual suspects so I can only remember the weird ones. A recent match is that marathon Gauntlet Match from Raw in 2018, great showing from Seth Rollins (and I'm not a fan) and great storytelling. The Gauntlet with Kofi was also fantastic.

The April 91 Flair-Pillman Saturday night matchup was great.       Pillman-Liger on the first Nitro.     Punk-Cena from Raw.   All come to mind. 

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If I had my way, there'd be a shift away the highest value in pro wrestling criticism being great matches, which are so dependent on opportunity, to looking at all the different roles a wrestler might have and how he/she might react to a hundred different situations, especially how they operate on a week to week basis when we have footage. 

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Sting Vs. DDP on Nitro is a great one. They had another Nitro match, but to be honest, it’s move for move the same match. 
 

Raven Vs. Goldberg is another. It sort of made Goldberg in many fans eyes at the time, and also killed a few classmates theories that Raven’s Evenflow was the move to counter Goldberg’s Jackhammer.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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Raven/Goldberg is a lot of fun, but it’s wild that at a time when there were drunk assholes regularly running into the ring they did a spot where plants in the crowd put their hands on a wrestler. 

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32 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Raven’s Evenflow was the move to counter Goldberg’s Jackhammer.

That would have been super cool, even if it would have resulted in a two count, kick out, spear and another jackhammer for the three count!

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I liked Raven/Goldberg a ton. I was huge mark for Raven at the time, but I was also digging everything Goldberg was doing.

You know how you can quickly tell that someone doesn't "get it" when it comes to wrestling? When they say winning streak gimmicks or storylines don't work because what do you do when they have to lose. This is something Bruce Prichard would say all the time. I've heard another booker here or there say the same thing. That's your job, dummy! That's what you're supposed to figure out. Also, huh, that winning streak gimmick really didn't work except for the whole part with Goldberg becoming the biggest draw in the company. As for how you have Goldberg lose, there's definitely ways to do it, but the way Bischoff booked it sure as hell wasn't it.

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