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AEW Saturday Night Dynamite - 8/22/2020


Dolfan in NYC

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38 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Yeah, my only concern with the main event angle is that it is delaying the Cody turn. He isn't going to be a sympathetic babyface for me for a long while. 

You've been making a good enough case for the Cody heel turn every week for months.  I can imagine as good as this all is that it's a touch disappointing for your booking hopes.  

I thought this Cody-Brodie match and angle was every bit as fantastic as everyone has remarked.  I love the swerve of a leading and potential heel turn creating the sympathetic babyface.  I'm on board.  Cody is such a great babyface promo and I'm pleased we won't be losing that to a fantasy booked new Horsemen stable.  FTR and Tully don't need any more members. 

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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24 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Yeah, my only concern with the main event angle is that it is delaying the Cody turn. He isn't going to be a sympathetic babyface for me for a long while. 

Agreed. If they take this down the sympathetic route I think its a really bad move. But there's lots of other interesting ways to go with this.

NWO worked (decades ago) because it was cocaine-cool with Hogan/Rodman/Voodoo Child/Outsiders etc. DO most definitely is not that but can work in its own way if this signals a cut away from the silliness.

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I can't imagine AEW lets Hangman look gullible for long.  It'd be a mistake considering how far he's come with the no fucks given attitude.  I don't doubt they know this and are on it.  I expect Page swerves FTR very soon.  Maybe even costing them the title shot.  Leading to FTR costing Omega/Page the titles at All Out.  If that scenario did happen I'm not sure who'd get the shot.  A Bucks rematch is the only thing that makes much sense.  

Re: The long underrated Dark Order
DO has been underrated from nearly the beginning.  So too Brodie Lee. Too many ppl expected things to happen immediately.  That's not to say they didn't make some huge mistakes along the way.  Obviously, the false start Scrull leadership angle should have sunk it.  But Stu and Uno have been consistently solid since the beginning.  I don't understand what ppl are seeing when they're in the ring, but to me they are poetry in motion.  I'm of the hope that a Bucks program might properly showcase their talents.  Lee has been great too.  He just needed some time to develop.  It's interesting that a comparison to the nWo is made above. Ppl expect that if a stable has legs it should have the kind of nuclear heat that nWo or the early Horsemen stables had.  Those stables were made up of huge stars.  DO is a rag tag bunch that they've slowly built to a breakout like what happened last night.  Even Silver, Reynolds and Angels seem to be moving in a direction of getting over.  The more accurate comparison to me is Raven's Flock, and what it could have been had somebody in creative cared.  

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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Dark Order's silliness has been confined to a YouTube only show. They've been doing shit like last night since last year, but all anyone remembers is an extra that played a Creeper missing punches (and they retconned that - ON DYNAMITE).

Best Friends & Orange Cassidy are more "silly" than the Dark Order have ever been, but nobody bats an eye at shit like that if it's coming from them. What about the precious NBA would-be AEW fans?! They'd surely hate that more!

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9 minutes ago, Casey said:

Dark Order's silliness has been confined to a YouTube only show. They've been doing shit like last night since last year, but all anyone remembers is an extra that played a Creeper missing punches (and they retconned that - ON DYNAMITE).

Nah. What I remember are vignettes on TV where they initiate losers or reveal their recruitment plans. Or vignettes where Brodie's eating a steak and ignoring the invisible camera. It was all trash, and it's not a coincidence that the perception of the Dark Order has improved as that shit as disappeared.

People can have their BBQ sauce and papers and Chili's silliness so long as it's confined to BTE, where it can largely be ignored. But people crediting the improvement to Brodie "finding the gimmick" or whatever doesn't gel with me because it's more than just Brodie's performance. This is starting to work because Brodie, Colt, Uno, and Grayson are consistently delivering on TV, they have a decent B/C/D-team to keep them present on the show even if the top guys aren't working, and they cut out the vignettes that were working against the overall presentation. 

Edited by Andy in Kansas
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I mean, I was generalizing, yeah, but the things you mentioned aren't "silly".

"Silly" is Dark Order being the spokesmen for Chilli's. Which is rightfully confined to BTE, because it's not for everyone (obviously). The vignettes might not be up your alley, but they definitely weren't silly or goofy or whatever - which is the remark I'm speaking to. All of the videos around the time after Brodie debuted, you can still draw a straight line from those to the current incarnation of Brodie, even if they still aren't doing those videos. I don't even think the videos with Evil Uno and their spokesman was that bad, but I'm clearly in the minority on a lot of things Dark Order/AEW, and I'm not shy about speaking up even though my opinions are often "misplaced" or whatever. ???

Edited by Casey
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I missed the first half hour and getting caught up now.

  • FTR/PP was good, probably Private Party's best match to date. Sick spinebuster from Cash and Marq took the Midnight Express perfectly. When we talk about young talent that could be big players down the road, we don't often bring up Private Party but I think they've been getting incrementally better every week.
  • Mox's promo was spot on, the perfect counterpoint to MJF's bloviating. I'm digging the dynamic between these two but it feels too soon for Max to be champion in my opinion.
  • The 8-man tag (before Eddie Kingston's involvement) was kind of trash. QT stood out as being particularly un-enthused, maybe that's his boo boo face. The Natural Nightmares are fine as a low card feeder team, both guys are at the that point in their careers.

re: Dark Order. They gelled last night in a way they haven't before. They've been presented as threats before but this is the first time it came off like unpredictable violence and not a cheesy beat down. Stu and Uno are perfect as mini-boss henchmen, the Rocksteady and Bebop to Brodie's Shredder, and having numbered creepers with personalities is better than a swarm of schlubs in ill fitting sweats. I'm not going to say Lee is carrying DO right now but he is certainly far and away the best part. I'm glad some people were with it the whole time and are having their faith pay off but a lot of pre-Brodie DO was simply bad. The difference between last night and the similar beat down at the end of 2019 is night and day.

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13 minutes ago, Casey said:

I mean, I was generalizing, yeah, but the things you mentioned aren't "silly"... The vignettes might not be up your alley, but they definitely weren't silly or goofy or whatever - which is the remark I'm speaking to. 

I guess it depends on what one finds silly or goofy. Those segments, as conceived as something I should take seriously on a wrestling show or as appropriately representing a cult in this kind of television show -- Goofy as hell. Too silly to be taken seriously. I understand their intent wasn't to be silly. But as Tommy Wiseau taught us, if you make something dumb enough then your intent doesn't matter -- silly is silly. Not that I'm going to sell you on this perception of those segments, as this has been parsed to death in earlier threads and we think what we think. I just think people aren't giving the disappearance of those segments enough credit in the Dark Order's turn-around. 

I'm sorry you misplaced your opinions. I hope you find them soon. 

Edited by Andy in Kansas
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3 minutes ago, Andy in Kansas said:

I just think people aren't giving the disappearance of those segments enough credit in the Dark Order's turn-around. 

I'm sorry you misplaced your opinions. I hope you find them soon. 

I can understand that point of view, though. It's just that, for me, the disappearance of those types of videos didn't really hinder my enjoyment for Dark Order, since I already liked it. For others, it made it better, and all I can do is celebrate that because now all involved are getting the proper spotlight and attention. Well, except Preston Vance, but it appears based on last night that he's not regulated to wearing an arm-sling anymore, so maybe he's ready to come back.

Hey, thanks for the well wishes about my opinions. I hope I find them too, but I'm not super optimistic! Imagine how devastated I was when I was told my opinions are often unwarranted! ?

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13 minutes ago, Godfrey said:

I missed the first half hour and getting caught up now.

  • FTR/PP was good, probably Private Party's best match to date. Sick spinebuster from Cash and Marq took the Midnight Express perfectly. When we talk about young talent that could be big players down the road, we don't often bring up Private Party but I think they've been getting incrementally better every week.
  • Mox's promo was spot on, the perfect counterpoint to MJF's bloviating. I'm digging the dynamic between these two but it feels too soon for Max to be champion in my opinion.
  • The 8-man tag (before Eddie Kingston's involvement) was kind of trash. QT stood out as being particularly un-enthused, maybe that's his boo boo face. The Natural Nightmares are fine as a low card feeder team, both guys are at the that point in their careers.

re: Dark Order. They gelled last night in a way they haven't before. They've been presented as threats before but this is the first time it came off like unpredictable violence and not a cheesy beat down. Stu and Uno are perfect as mini-boss henchmen, the Rocksteady and Bebop to Brodie's Shredder, and having numbered creepers with personalities is better than a swarm of schlubs in ill fitting sweats. I'm not going to say Lee is carrying DO right now but he is certainly far and away the best part. I'm glad some people were with it the whole time and are having their faith pay off but a lot of pre-Brodie DO was simply bad. The difference between last night and the similar beat down at the end of 2019 is night and day.

I agree. If it were me booking, I'd actually have MJF lose pretty convincingly and have it lead to something of a "rock bottom" story for him, like when DDP went broke in like 1995 but not fucking stupid. Rebuild him from the preppy meathead to a more serious competitor. Like, this has never been hard for MJF, and he doesn't know how to fail. Have Mox mop the floor with him and then Wardlow deserts/turns on him. Have him deal with some adversity. 

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1 hour ago, Godfrey said:

I missed the first half hour and getting caught up now.

  • FTR/PP was good, probably Private Party's best match to date. Sick spinebuster from Cash and Marq took the Midnight Express perfectly. When we talk about young talent that could be big players down the road, we don't often bring up Private Party but I think they've been getting incrementally better every week.
  • Mox's promo was spot on, the perfect counterpoint to MJF's bloviating. I'm digging the dynamic between these two but it feels too soon for Max to be champion in my opinion.
  • The 8-man tag (before Eddie Kingston's involvement) was kind of trash. QT stood out as being particularly un-enthused, maybe that's his boo boo face. The Natural Nightmares are fine as a low card feeder team, both guys are at the that point in their careers.

re: Dark Order. They gelled last night in a way they haven't before. They've been presented as threats before but this is the first time it came off like unpredictable violence and not a cheesy beat down. Stu and Uno are perfect as mini-boss henchmen, the Rocksteady and Bebop to Brodie's Shredder, and having numbered creepers with personalities is better than a swarm of schlubs in ill fitting sweats. I'm not going to say Lee is carrying DO right now but he is certainly far and away the best part. I'm glad some people were with it the whole time and are having their faith pay off but a lot of pre-Brodie DO was simply bad. The difference between last night and the similar beat down at the end of 2019 is night and day.

The Dark Order vignettes, Brodie eating streak (not really a complaint for me), etc. was creative trying to get them over.  This is a young company with an inexperienced creative team.  Of course, there'll be misfires, but I don't mind being patient when the efforts are there and working toward something better.  My feelings concerning the Dark Order are completely based upon Uno and Grayson's consistent and underrated in ring work.  I guess I never really took much of the vignettes or outside the ring stuff seriously enough to care.  I mean I would have if they'd been so 'bad', but it's never been anything worse than meh.  I mean other than the Nightmare Collective and some Women's division matches little has been sooo bad.  

I completely agree on Private Party.  Moreso Marc Quen tho.  He's coming along.  I loved how FTR reeled these guys in here.  Too bad they couldn't work a loop with them.  

I gotta go back to this 8 man and see what the dissenters on here saw with Dustin and QT.  I've never been a huge fan of the NNs, but during that match I both dug Dustin's babyface in peril and QT's selling of a bunch of stuff.  I've actually been enjoying QT lately.  I hated the WWE style finish and cartoon dissension between Blade and Fenix.  And it was definitely sloppy at points, but I didn't notice the NNs not pulling their weight.  Yeah, Dustin's destroyer on Fenix was slightly botched, but it still looked nasty.  I also noticed early on Jungle Jack and Fenix squaring off and got excited about the possible singles bout they could have.  Also, really hoping we get a Dustin-Brodie Lee bout.    

MJeff is definitely not ready to be a World Champion right now.  He's blessed with a lot of talent, but still needs to put all the pieces together.  His in ring work is inconsistent.  And as good a promo as he is, this build to the title match has been underwhelming where it needs to be great.  The promo last night was fine in a campy bullshit kinda way, but didn't exactly sell a main event PPV world title match.  Banning the Paradigm Shift is a fine idea, but the execution hasn't really worked.  Also, the promo really needed less lawyer more Max.  Mox on the other hand was great and has had some of his best promos over the past few weeks.  See even Moxley needed time to develop.  His early promos were alright, if a bit corny (I'm so mad!), but he seems to be settling in  nicely.  It's really incredible to see what happens when gifted performers are able to mature and grow at a realistic pace.  

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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2 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said:

The more accurate comparison to me is Raven's Flock, and what it could have been had somebody in creative cared.  

Funny you mention that, as I was watching a few WCW PPVs from that late 97/early 98 period and yeah its exactly what came to mind as DO done well - at least in its creative essence. Flock was pretty serious & very understated at the beginning with Raven as the stoic observer in the crowd then leaping the rail to get shit done, it just fell by the wayside further along with some dubious or under-developed talent involved. DO will never be an NWO but if they capture that grungey, cunning violence sans silliness then it can be v effective of course.

Edited by A_K
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Still watching the show but looks like they shifted the Darby-Cage feud into Darby-Starks.

Am i the only thinking that Ricky Starks has completely overshadowed Cage the last couple of weeks? He feels like the star of that group now.

 

 

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Raven explains the Flock pretty well during his shoots. They were the bigger budget version of the Nest. They planned on giving Raven more impressive guys to start with, but he wanted more Power Plant geeks, and he wanted there interference to be ultimately kind of useless when it came to hurting the face, but successful as a long distraction. He also said he wanted them to pattern their bumping after a star runs wild in the Rumble. Notice that when they get their asses kicked they usually go flying over the top rope in spectacular fashion.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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15 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

The Dark Order vignettes, Brodie eating streak (not really a complaint for me), etc. was creative trying to get them over.  This is a young company with an inexperienced creative team.  Of course, there'll be misfires, but I don't mind being patient when the efforts are there and working toward something better.  My feelings concerning the Dark Order are completely based upon Uno and Grayson's consistent and underrated in ring work.  I guess I never really took much of the vignettes or outside the ring stuff seriously enough to care.  I mean I would have if they'd been so 'bad', but it's never been anything worse than meh.  I mean other than the Nightmare Collective and some Women's division matches little has been sooo bad.

Yes, Harry, patience is a virtue, I should take that lesson to heart more often, but it's also fair to criticize something when it's bad and laud it for improving. Uno and Stu (who need a new tag name now) were never an problem in the ring, but Uno's b-movie villain promos killed whatever interest I had in the team at first and the sloppiness of the early creepers made them look like total geeks. The journey from that Dark Order to this one is remarkable and they should be commended for the work they did along the way, even if it didn't always hit.

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6 hours ago, Shartnado said:

Oh, we will never forget Velveteen Dream, but we are trying to!

If you are under 14 and he has your phone number, I guaran-fucking-tee you will never forget him.

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4 hours ago, Andy in Kansas said:

Jericho's been soaked inside and out in booze for decades. Falling into an oversized cocktail should have no real effect.

Jericho drinks the way I used to over thirty years ago, that the man can figure out which camera to face is a constant source of wonder.

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