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2020 NBA OFFSEASON


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3 hours ago, MavsFan77 said:

Jason Kidd who was in freaking year 17 of his career in 2011. You’re talking as if he was first Dallas run, or NBA Finals run in New Jersey Kidd. And how had Dallas been “knocking on the door” they’d only been in the finals once, and that was 5 years prior. 

To try to say that Kevin Johnson and Dan Majerle were somehow equivalent to that really old Kidd is an insult to both of them too. Same with Terry Porter and Jerome Kersey. Just because MJ handled his business every time doesn’t give the wannabe King a free pass. He still had Wade and Bosh and lost. Jordan would have never lost with that duo.

And what does the 11 title have to do with the Cavs health? That’s the one he lost to Dallas once he was already in Miami. 

2012 isn’t a testament to anything either. You’re starting to sound like Lawful with these silly statements. 2012 he beat up on the baby Thunder. If even two of the three were in their prime Miami would have got it handed to them again. 

The same can be said of those Celtic teams you’re bragging that he got by in 09 and 11. By 2011 KG was an antique. He was finishing up year 16 of his career, and nowhere near the force he was in Minnesota. But hey big props to Lebron for beating him, Pierce, and Allen in 11 while having Bosh and Wade with him. Gee I wonder which trio was much younger and more athletic???

Jason Kidd wasn't a nobody. Shawn Marion and Peja Stojakovic, weren't nobodies either. The Mavs were old, they only had one All-Star, they didn't have a second star, and their supporting cast didn't look like championship material, I'll give you that. They had great coaching, though (Carlisle, Terry Stotts and Dwayne Casey.) Casey drew up an excellent game plan against LeBron, which basically forced him out onto the perimeter where he had to rely on his jumper (which wasn't very good at the time.) When I said Dallas had been knocking on the door, I meant Dirk-led Dallas teams had been contenders for a while. I shouldn't have implied that this particular Dallas team had been knocking on the door, as no-one saw them as a contender at the beginning of the 2010-11 season.

I was taking about the 2015 Finals where Love and Irving were injured. 

Coming back and winning a title after you lose in the Finals is always a testament to a team's toughness. I don't care who the opponent is. It's a tough thing to do. But apparently none of LeBron's successes count. They're all series he should have won, and the times when he lost are damning. You better get your excuses ready for this season now because you're gonna need them. 

Edited by ohtani's jacket
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2 hours ago, MavsFan77 said:

You’re offering up a selective metric that shows somehow Lebron faced better Finals competition, yet said metric doesn’t even know who played on said teams. As I said there’s no way that Mavs team had better players than the 18 Warriors. I’d love to see anyone debate that with me. 

What are the hypotheticals with this? You trotted out a metric, and I’m disputing its credibility. It’s ether a good metric or it’s not. A hypothetical would be us discussing who was better the Big 3 in Miami or MJ, Pippen, and Rodman? Since we never got to see those teams play one another, and there’s good and actual arguments on both sides. I’m not sure I wouldn’t say Miami’s guys weren’t the better trio. 

As for your earlier points I fail to see how my saying Lebron is #2 all time to be anything other than praise, nor is it my misrepresenting facts.

I’m offering up one metric that is easily available, commonly understood, and with a baseline of credibility. It depicts, or attempts to, how strong a team was, not just how positively we rate remembered names. I’m not saying it’s right in every case, or even (necessarily) in the cases shown. I didn’t even present an argument with it; I just posted the graph. ELO also says Jordan had a much tougher road getting to the finals. Basically, it jives with the narrative most people adhere to for both careers. I think that’s interesting. (And broadly, I think it’s correct.) If you have preferred statistics, go ahead and suggest them. But I’m not going to retroactively invent League Pass for the early 90s, and watch ever Suns, Sonic, and Blazers game. 

Hypotheticals we can’t confirm in this case are: 1) who had better supporting casts; 2) how would Jordan and LeBron have faired against one another’s competitors; 3) whether Dan Majerle was better than post-prime Jason Kidd, etc. You’re saying Jordan would not have lost a series with Wade and Bosh; I’m just saying we can’t be sure, about that, or any of this. Pretending otherwise is extreme bias. 

Insults being, for one, “so called King.” It’s not overly harsh, but it’s also not productive rhetoric. 

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59 minutes ago, Beech27 said:

But I’m not going to retroactively invent League Pass for the early 90s, and watch ever Suns, Sonic, and Blazers game. 

You would have my subscription should you do such a thing. (It's all on YouTube anyway).

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2 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Jason Kidd wasn't a nobody. Shawn Marion and Peja Stojakovic, weren't nobodies either. The Mavs were old, they only had one All-Star, they didn't have a second star, and their supporting cast didn't look like championship material, I'll give you that. They had great coaching, though (Carlisle, Terry Stotts and Dwayne Casey.) Casey drew up an excellent game plan against LeBron, which basically forced him out onto the perimeter where he had to rely on his jumper (which wasn't very good at the time.) When I said Dallas had been knocking on the door, I meant Dirk-led Dallas teams had been contenders for a while. I shouldn't have implied that this particular Dallas team had been knocking on the door, as no-one saw them as a contender at the beginning of the 2010-11 season.

I was taking about the 2015 Finals where Love and Irving were injured. 

Coming back and winning a title after you lose in the Finals is always a testament to a team's toughness. I don't care who the opponent is. It's a tough thing to do. But apparently none of LeBron's successes count. They're all series he should have won, and the times when he lost are damning. You better get your excuses ready for this season now because you're gonna need them. 

Peja played 26 minutes over the course of a six game series. That’s why I didn’t count him. I always thought he was amazing in Sacramento. If I were to throw another name out there with Kidd I’d have said Jason Terry, but I don’t consider him to be a star either. You’re 100% right about their amazing coaching staff. Carlisle has always been one of the best coaches in the league, and he’s usually had at least one quality assistant (or two as you pointed out). Not to sound like a pompous ass (which I’m sure I will), but that year my friend and I went to the Coaches Versus Cancer NCAA basketball games at MSG. That same night Bill Simmons was doing a book signing at Barnes and Noble next door to The Garden. So I wore my Mavs hoodie, and headed over to meet him, and get my book signed (not his basketball one, but his Red Sox book). I had to buy a basketball one too so he asked how I wanted it signed. I showed him my sweatshirt, and told him he should sign it to my name, and write that the Mavs would be NBA champions that year. You should have seen how hard he laughed when he was signing it.

Ah those Cavs. I’ll admit I felt for him once they got hurt just like I felt for Curry last year when he lost Klay (after losing KD). Nobody should have to go 1 on 3 (or 4). 

His wins definitely count. It’s just that beating a pre prime Thunder team isn’t something worthy of praise. This year if he beats Miami or Boston then he deserves whatever praise you and everyone else give him. Both of those are quality teams with star players in their prime (Butler and Bam, or Tatum and Brown). The only year I’m begrudging him is the win versus Golden State as I don’t see that happening if Draymond wasn’t suspended. I’m not going to go full Skip Bayless, and bitch about Ray Allen saving him versus San Antonio as Lebron carried them that entire fourth quarter. Plus it’s not his fault Pop took Duncan out on defense. 

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1 hour ago, Beech27 said:

I’m offering up one metric that is easily available, commonly understood, and with a baseline of credibility. It depicts, or attempts to, how strong a team was, not just how positively we rate remembered names. I’m not saying it’s right in every case, or even (necessarily) in the cases shown. I didn’t even present an argument with it; I just posted the graph. ELO also says Jordan had a much tougher road getting to the finals. Basically, it jives with the narrative most people adhere to for both careers. I think that’s interesting. (And broadly, I think it’s correct.) If you have preferred statistics, go ahead and suggest them. But I’m not going to retroactively invent League Pass for the early 90s, and watch ever Suns, Sonic, and Blazers game. 

Hypotheticals we can’t confirm in this case are: 1) who had better supporting casts; 2) how would Jordan and LeBron have faired against one another’s competitors; 3) whether Dan Majerle was better than post-prime Jason Kidd, etc. You’re saying Jordan would not have lost a series with Wade and Bosh; I’m just saying we can’t be sure, about that, or any of this. Pretending otherwise is extreme bias. 

Insults being, for one, “so called King.” It’s not overly harsh, but it’s also not productive rhetoric. 

Okay here’s a hypothetical, and one that I hope won’t be harsh or seem insulting towards Lebron (or you). If you were picking a duo for a star to play with would you pair them with 97-98 Pippen and Rodman or 10-11 Wade and Bosh?

I think that’s actually something that could spark debate on both sides, and would put into perspective the teammates both stars had for champion seasons (yes I know Miami didn’t win the title that year, but it was their first year together so it works from that point of view). 

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There's a series on YouTube by a guy named Clayton Crowley called "Making the Case" where he took the handful of players he feels have a legit argument to being the GOAT and made one video for each of them, laying out only the positive argument for each. No "player X did this better than player Y" or anything.

His list (in the order he released the videos) was Duncan, Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, MJ, and just this past week LeBron. Not ranked, unless he had a conclusion on the end of the James video (which I'm about to watch) then he didn't declare any of them as THE guy. But they are all well put together and well argued. You might quibble a bit with his list (I think there's one person missing, myself) but I think they are worth giving a shot to.

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14 hours ago, MavsFan77 said:

Okay here’s a hypothetical, and one that I hope won’t be harsh or seem insulting towards Lebron (or you). If you were picking a duo for a star to play with would you pair them with 97-98 Pippen and Rodman or 10-11 Wade and Bosh?

I think that’s actually something that could spark debate on both sides, and would put into perspective the teammates both stars had for champion seasons (yes I know Miami didn’t win the title that year, but it was their first year together so it works from that point of view). 

This is exactly what I mean when I say we have to consider context, and acknowledge nuance. Who is the star? What is the rest of the roster like? What era of NBA are we in? Who is the opponent? 

I mean, if this is all a roundabout way to say the Heat should have won the title that year, I think most people agree with that. I agree with it. ELO, since we've already brought it up, has it as a virtual coin-toss series, fwiw. (Most every metric I'm aware of suggests that that Mavericks team is much better than the collection of names would imply, and their eventual title win would seem to confirm that.) (Further, analytics love Jordan, and his best Bulls teams. I don't think throwing them out makes sense if, as I do, you think he's the best player ever.)

Anyway, @Brian Fowlerthose videos are a good watch, and provide a useful broadening of perspective.

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19 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

There's a series on YouTube by a guy named Clayton Crowley called "Making the Case" where he took the handful of players he feels have a legit argument to being the GOAT and made one video for each of them, laying out only the positive argument for each. No "player X did this better than player Y" or anything.

His list (in the order he released the videos) was Duncan, Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, MJ, and just this past week LeBron. Not ranked, unless he had a conclusion on the end of the James video (which I'm about to watch) then he didn't declare any of them as THE guy. But they are all well put together and well argued. You might quibble a bit with his list (I think there's one person missing, myself) but I think they are worth giving a shot to.

I have only had the chance to watch LeBron, Duncan, and Bird so far but thank you for mentioning these. They are SO good! I do appreciate that he doesn't get into negatives, or when he does he tries to break down why popular talking points are flawed or just presents some counterpoints. And just going off these three vids, it feels to me that he enjoys creating videos for the more fringe candidates like Duncan and Bird than obvious candidates. Speaking of, gonna watch the Jordan vid now. Thanks again! 

I totally forgot how crazy some of Bird's passing was. It was the perfect foul to the elegant and ostentatious Magic passes. His were angrier and uglier in contrast but still beautiful and magical in their own way. Then he'd do the fake pass over a defender's head -> shot. The balls to pull that off. 

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I never get the Draymond suspension one as if it knocks down the three straight wins because it's still a hypothetical.  The facts? He played in game 6 and 7. Matter of fact Draymond was awesome in game 7. 

Few people want to hear about the injuries to Wade, Kyrie, Love, and Bosh during those runs as excuses for Lebron so Draymond suspension gets too much rub imo.

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2 hours ago, _MJ_ said:

I never get the Draymond suspension one as if it knocks down the three straight wins because it's still a hypothetical.  The facts? He played in game 6 and 7. Matter of fact Draymond was awesome in game 7. 

Few people want to hear cares about the injuries to Wade, Kyrie, Love, and Bosh during those runs as excuses for Lebron so Draymond suspension gets too much rub imo.

It probably is why they lost game 5, but the Bogut injury is, imo, at least as important as the suspension. Sure, he was, at best, the sixth best player on the Warriors, but he was also their only rim protector and LeBron and, to a lesser extent, Kyrie were able to just attack the basket in a totally different way.

But the biggest reason the Cavs won that series is that LeBron went Super Sayia-jin 3 for three straight games after being pissed off about being called a bitch. And Kyrie got hot as hell to boot.

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On 9/21/2020 at 4:07 PM, Beech27 said:

Jordan/James finals opponents by ELO: https://ca.nba.com/news/the-last-dance-did-michael-jordan-or-lebron-james-face-tougher-competition-in-the-playoffs/ub0a1xhfjsff1kuizb90rbd7y

Every Finals Opponent
Team Rating Opponent
2017 Warriors 1850 LeBron
2015 Warriors 1802 LeBron
2016 Warriors 1790 LeBron
1998 Jazz 1762 MJ
1997 Jazz 1751 MJ
2012 Thunder 1737 LeBron
2014 Spurs 1730 LeBron
2011 Mavericks 1717 LeBron
2013 Spurs 1711 LeBron
2018 Warriors 1710 LeBron
2007 Spurs 1705 LeBron
1992 Blazers 1702 MJ
1991 Lakers 1697 MJ
1996 Sonics 1695 MJ
1993 Suns 1634 MJ

No stat that says that 97 and 98 Jazz were the best teams that Jordan played in the Finals is relevant to me.  Honestly, Stockton and Malone were great, and perfectly made to play together, but the rest of that team was average as hell.  The third best player was Bryon Russell, who was a good player, but that's a huge drop off.  I'd rather have Dan Majrle, Byron Scott, Terry Porter, or Detlef Schrempf.  Matter of fact, I'd rather have 1993 Richard Dumas and Tom Chambers, Buck Williams and Cliff Robinson, and maybe Sam Perkins and Vlade Divac.  The most egregious thing is that somehow that stat thinks those Jazz teams were better than the 2012 Thunder which is about as absurdly talented as NBA teams get.

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ELO is based on how the team played--wins/losses, considering margin and strength of opponent--not an estimation of the skill of the collected talent. Again, it's one data point. We should note that, and adjust our opinions based on the weight of all the evidence we have--that includes noting that more talent and regular season success don't necessarily corelate. Like, most everyone would argue that the Warriors were better with Durant than without. (I'd also point out that Hornacek had a significantly higher VORP and WS/48 than Russell. Even if you want to suggest he wasn't better, there's really not a case he was significantly worse at the time.)  

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34 minutes ago, Beech27 said:

ELO is based on how the team played--wins/losses, considering margin and strength of opponent--not an estimation of the skill of the collected talent. Again, it's one data point. We should note that, and adjust our opinions based on the weight of all the evidence we have--that includes noting that more talent and regular season success don't necessarily corelate. Like, most everyone would argue that the Warriors were better with Durant than without. (I'd also point out that Hornacek had a significantly higher VORP and WS/48 than Russell. Even if you want to suggest he wasn't better, there's really not a case he was significantly worse at the time.)  

The Warriors were actually better without Durant, even though it's probably because they seemed to always have someone with a significant injury.  The '15-16 team is pretty much the best team of all time by any statistical measurement.

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13 minutes ago, supremebve said:

The '15-16 team is pretty much the best team of all time by any statistical measurement.

Totally agree with this. (I mean, the data says what it says. I can disagree with the implications, but not that they conclude what they do.) But I think this gets back to why this sort of errand--though fascinating--can't ever reach a meaningful end. Data will say one thing--or rather, different sets will say different things. And we will all conclude other things, based on our own biases and heuristics. E.G., that Durant is Durant, that the Warriors coasted through the regular season, and so on. 

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2 minutes ago, Beech27 said:

Totally agree with this. (I mean, the data says what it says. I can disagree with the implications, but not that they conclude what they do.) But I think this gets back to why this sort of errand--though fascinating--can't ever reach a meaningful end. Data will say one thing--or rather, different sets will say different things. And we will all conclude other things, based on our own biases and heuristics. E.G., that Durant is Durant, that the Warriors coasted through the regular season, and so on. 

The crazy thing is that the team felt different that year too.  It isn't just a statistical thing, that team felt overpowering in a way that I don't remember any other team feeling.  There was no such thing as a safe lead against them, they would go on runs where they'd close 15-20 point gaps in what felt like seconds.  The LeBron James best ever argument starts with, he somehow beat the 15-16 Warriors and I don't think anyone else has a better crowning accomplishment than that.  

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I feel fairly confident the reason the Jazz teams rate out the best is because the league was worse. The watering down I was talking about.

When firing on all cylinders, that first Dubs with KD team is the best I've ever seen. They coasted to 67-15, and 16-1 in the post season, and it felt pretty obvious to me that the Warriors decided not to chase 73 or 74 wins in order to save themselves for the post season.

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On 9/13/2020 at 3:09 PM, Brian Fowler said:

Pacers and Sixers are both reportedly interested in him.

I can't quite picture what Philly running D'Antoni's offense would look like

It would be entertaining to watch at least. This year was as painful to watch as the year Okafor was being featured. 

 

The situation with this team is such a mess. The owner Josh Harris had quietly become the NBA's Jerry Jones. The coaching hire right now is a battle between Brand and the front office wanting Lue and Harris wanting D'Antoni. 

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