AUG 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[The Natural]

Renee Young will be missed. Bayley's tribute is great, she's so huggable. Role Model's right.

Edited August 27, 2020 by The Natural

[supremebve]

4 minutes ago, AxB said:

Plenty of people think of "Here, my Dear" as their favourite Marvin Gaye album. He made it to pay for his divorce, with all the royalties going to his ex-Wife, hence the title.

LOL, anyone who thinks "Here, my Dear" is their favorite Marving Gaye album is a bitter person who probably needs to seek counseling...with that said the break up album is one of the most consistently great artistic endeavors.  For better or worse, whatever is said on a break up album is generally a sincere expression of that person's true feelings.  

To get this back to wrestling, is there a wrestler that any of you would consider an artist?  If I had to choose one, I might choose Bret Hart.  I'm not someone who thinks Bret is the best worker of all time, but I think his approach to wrestling storytelling is about as close to artistry as anyone I can think of.  There is a match he has with Shawn Michaels where he hits a cross body early in the match, and then goes for it two more times and misses.  In the same match he tries to hit a Oklahoma roll early in the match, and fails, he tries it again and fails, he tries it a third time and finally gets it.  You could watch that match over and over and never really catch those details, but there are layers of context that someone with a keen eye can see and enjoy.  It's clearly a Bret thing too, because Shawn Michaels is the exact opposite type of worker.  He's kind of a big match factory where he kind of just adds all the pieces of what makes a big match great without adding the subtle little touches in between.  Shawn Michaels may have more great matches than Bret, but I think Bret took more creative risks in the name of his art.

[SirSmUgly]

"Here, My Dear" has grown in love and stature over the decades, but "What's Going On" is one of the greatest albums of all-time. OF ALL-TIME.

Mick Foley pretty clearly saw wrestling as an artistic endeavor while also trying to make as much money as possible. It's his "what's my motivation" style of wrestling psychology, even more than his willingness to carve himself up or take wild bumps, that made him a damned good wrestler, IMO. 

[supremebve]

Just now, Smelly McUgly said:

"Here, My Dear" has grown in love and stature over the decades, but "What's Going On" is one of the greatest albums of all-time. OF ALL-TIME.

Mick Foley pretty clearly saw wrestling as an artistic endeavor while also trying to make as much money as possible. It's his "what's my motivation" style of wrestling psychology, even more than his willingness to carve himself up or take wild bumps, that made him a damned good wrestler, IMO. 

This is a great answer.  For what it is worth, I don't think negotiating a lucrative deal makes you less of an artist.  Stevie Wonder was signed to Motown as a preteen and renegotiated his deal to get not only complete creative control, but to own all his masters before going on one of the best creative runs in the history of music.  His decision to take his career into his own hands happened simultaneously with his decision to start taking huge creative risks.  Foley wanted to be compensated fairly, but he's also wanted freedom to take creative risks.  His desire to push the envelope creatively is what made him a special worker.

I think Ric Flair may be the best wrestler of all time.  I also think Ric Flair may be the least artistic wrestler of all time.

[Jiji]

I feel like the artistic side of AJPW/AJW is pretty strong. The Zen men told subtle stories with multiple layers on them on the same canvas for ten plus years with long arcs and super emotional highs and lows. The women sacrificed so much. I can't get that fact about Bull taking hormones to get her weight up and become something inhuman out of my head. That is tragic and fucked up. This is obviously more applicable for some than others. Like Hotta just kicked people really hard. I wouldn't call her a great artist. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Jiji

[Death From Above]

I've never liked the notion "art can't also make money". The example I'll put out there is one of the reasons Stanley Kubrick was successful wasn't just his substantial skill as a film director, but also that he was one of the few directors that also had enough business savvy to independently raise funding that allowed him to make his films the way he wanted. That's not a bad thing, it's a strength most lack.

[SirSmUgly]

"Innervisions" is the greatest album of all time as far as I'm concerned, so I essentially agree with you, @supremebve. Making money and expressing oneself artistically are not mutually exclusive, necessarily. It all depends on context as most things do.

[supremebve]

1 hour ago, Jiji said:

I feel like the artistic side of AJPW/AJW is pretty strong. The Zen men told subtle stories with multiple layers on them on the same canvas for ten plus years with long arcs and super emotional highs and lows. The women sacrificed so much. I can't get that fact about Bull taking hormones to get her weight up and become something inhuman out of my head. That is tragic and fucked up. This is obviously more applicable for some than others. Like Hotta just kicked people really hard. I wouldn't call her a great artist. 

I honestly don't know if I'd say that AJPW is artistic.  First, let me make myself clear and say that I think 90s AJPW is the best run of professional wrestling of all time.  This conversation started with @Matt D saying something to the effect of wrestling would be better if finishes were 1/6th of a match not 1/3rd of a match.  I disagreed saying "that's not what I want from a creative endeavor."  The thing that made 90's All Japan great was that it was almost completely predictable...until it wasn't.  When the 90s started Jumbo Tsuruta was the man.  He won every match by pinfall, and everyone knows it.  Then one day Misawa beats him, clean in the middle of the ring...and Jumbo is pissed about it.  Then for two straight years Misawa and Jumbo and their collection fo friends beat the hell out of each other.  Misawa isn't quite the man, but neither is Jumbo, but they're clearly a step above everyone else on the roster.  Kawada and Taue are a step above everyone but Misawa and Jumbo.  Kobashi and Fuchi are a step below them, and so on.  If you matched any of those guys up, everyone kind of knew what was going to happen for about 2 straight years until it became apparent that Misawa and his army won.  With Jumbo out of the picture Kawada stepped up to challenge Misawa and Kobashi stepped into Kawada's place as second banana.  Misawa wins every 1-on-1 match with Kawada for five straight years.  For pretty much the entire decade we knew exactly what was going to happen in every match.  We also knew that eventually we'd be surprised.  

Keeping us entertained for that long is great, and the formula absolutely worked...but formulas aren't art.  Matter of fact the biggest criticism of the style is that they had to keep ratcheting up the danger in order to keep the fans engaged.  Being more creative, and artistic would have probably served them better.  

[Matt D]

2 hours ago, supremebve said:

I think Ric Flair may be the best wrestler of all time.  I also think Ric Flair may be the least artistic wrestler of all time.

This is a pretty fair statement. 

Anyway, I mainly was just trying to give cover to John but then that didn't work anyway.

My personal feeling is that 90-92 AJPW is better than post 92 AJPW, but that's me. I tend to think the escalation gets to be too much a couple of years before most people do.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Matt D

[Jiji]

2 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Keeping us entertained for that long is great, and the formula absolutely worked...but formulas aren't art.  Matter of fact the biggest criticism of the style is that they had to keep ratcheting up the danger in order to keep the fans engaged.  Being more creative, and artistic would have probably served them better.  

Which is funny because I think more of the subtleties in character work and how they grew and changed over the decade way more than I do the escalation of violence. That they were able to keep things fresh and not feel like we're watching The Flinstones or some other super formulaic, long-running show speaks to their absolute mastery of professional wrestling as an art from of storytelling and psychology imo. So, while I agree with you on most things, I think we see this one case differently.

[Matt D]

My huge frustration was always that they absolutely could have managed it without the escalation. They were that good. They cared about storytelling within and between matches so much. They were able to accomplish so much with their selling. They could have taken a different path and achieved even more amazing results. 

[Jiji]

1 minute ago, Matt D said:

My huge frustration was always that they absolutely could have managed it without the escalation. They were that good. They cared about storytelling within and between matches so much. They were able to accomplish so much with their selling. They could have taken a different path and achieved even more amazing results. 

Agreed 100%. I feel like Kobashi was the most culpable for escalation but they each played a part in it and by the late '90s it was madness what they were doing to each other. I almost do an involuntary twitch when I read people say Kobashi is their guy because he was so fucking good at emoting and fighting from underneath and comebacks in late match that he absolutely did not need to introduce shit like the Burning Hammer and his dozen other crazy finishers that lasted a hot minute.

[Matt D]

Just now, Jiji said:

Agreed 100%. I feel like Kobashi was the most culpable for escalation but they each played a part in it and by the late '90s it was madness what they were doing to each other. I almost do an involuntary twitch when I read people say Kobashi is their guy because he was so fucking good at emoting and fighting from underneath and comebacks in late match that he absolutely did not need to introduce shit like the Burning Hammer and his dozen other crazy finishers that lasted a hot minute.

I also feel like Kobashi is the one who even within the confines of just having a comeback and doing a thousand chops or channeling super powers in dropping his selling or just having a burst of energy late in the match that would be less weighed down than the others, could take things too far in more subtle ways, not just in moves or headdrops or kick outs. I don't know if he was trying to overcompensate for having the least physical presence of the four or what. 

[AxB]

Stu Bennett returning to WWE and Thunder Rosa appearing on AEW's next PPV has people wondering if the NWA is more or less finished.

[Jiji]

Isn't that shithouse Marquez running a spinoff promotion of sorts and Thunder Rosa is attached to it?

[supremebve]

1 minute ago, Matt D said:

My huge frustration was always that they absolutely could have managed it without the escalation. They were that good. They cared about storytelling within and between matches so much. They were able to accomplish so much with their selling. They could have taken a different path and achieved even more amazing results. 

This is my point.  All the great stuff they did with their character work still had to fit in their hierarchy.  They waited so long to give Kawada a win that his credibility was shot.  In order to get a win Kawada had to hit a head drop German suplex, multiple enziguris, a brainbuster, and two powerbombs.  By the time it was time for Kawada to get a win, Misawa had been dropped on his head countless times and still kicked out.  They had painted themselves into a corner and instead of realizing that they needed to adjust their formula, they just started climbing up the walls.  

[Technico Support]

2 hours ago, supremebve said:

I think Ric Flair may be the best wrestler of all time.  I also think Ric Flair may be the least artistic wrestler of all time.

Art vs commerce.  Quality vs consistency.  Is Flair the McDonald's of wrestling?  If you get a Big Mac in Miami, Houston, or San Francisco, it's the same Big Mac.  If you get a Flair match in Greensboro, Baltimore, or St. Louis, it's the same Flair Match. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Technico Support

[Eivion]

27 minutes ago, Matt D said:

My huge frustration was always that they absolutely could have managed it without the escalation. They were that good. They cared about storytelling within and between matches so much. They were able to accomplish so much with their selling. They could have taken a different path and achieved even more amazing results. 

Wasn't the escalation factor more Baba's fault than anyone else's? Like that was the style he wanted from them even going as far as to decide submissions no longer mattered.

 

[supremebve]

Just now, Technico Support said:

Is Flair the McDonald's of wrestling?  If you get a Big Mac in Miami, Houston, or San Francisco, it's the same Big Mac.  If you get a Flair match in Greensboro, Baltimore, or St. Louis, it's the same Flair Match. 

No, he's too good to be McDonald's.  He's more of a Morton's or Ruth's Chris.  He's something you can get in every city in the country, and it feels special despite it being pretty generic.  

[Technico Support]

4 minutes ago, supremebve said:

No, he's too good to be McDonald's.  He's more of a Morton's or Ruth's Chris.  He's something you can get in every city in the country, and it feels special despite it being pretty generic.  

Ah, there you go.  Perfect.  You saved my metaphor!

[Jiji]

11 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Art vs commerce.  Quality vs consistency.  Is Flair the McDonald's of wrestling?  If you get a Big Mac in Miami, Houston, or San Francisco, it's the same Big Mac.  If you get a Flair match in Greensboro, Baltimore, or St. Louis, it's the same Flair Match. 

The only thing that breaks up the Flair formula was when he was a babyface and damn it he was an AMAZING fiery babyface. He'd change up stuff slightly so he wasn't showing ass and instead being a bad ass. Loved it. I guess his babyface run is the McRib or something.

edit: we don't have Morton's or Ruth's here in Canada, so I  wasn't aware of them. I guess that would be like The Keg here?

Edited August 27, 2020 by Jiji

[odessasteps]

Also, flair’s formulaic matches really only began once he became touring champion. 

So, a good local restaurant that went national and became cookie cutter? 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Excuse me for not reading the last three pages as once I saw OSJ get like his 3rd suspension in 3 months, I took it as things weren't going very well. So I will just pick and choose stuff that was just posted:

- I won't fight anyone who says Master P isn't an artist, but P breaking through was a watershed moment for hip-hop both good and bad. People blame the south for decimating the genre, but the south was really the last domino to fall and strapped a rocket booster to rap giving it that staying power. Fucking Ludacris and Nelly had diamond albums. So many rappers owe P for their existence and their livelihood. Yes, there were many classic albums from southern hip hop acts before P but only one guy just completely busted down that door. Before that, any record from the South was just a niche record. Moreover, people weren't trying to separate the regions between what was what. Being from the Mississippi Delta, nothing was more memorable than when BOTH New Orleans and Memphis got on the map. It became real for me when I first saw the music video for Juvenile's "Ha". For me, that was my Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five's "The Message". The first thing I thought to myself is, "...so I see y'all shit is fucked up too.". It's not like I didn't like West Coast/G-Funk or New York hip hop, but that was the vast majority of what I was exposed to. I loved that and love it to this day, but that shit was almost like an entirely different country to me. I didn't know what the fuck a bodega was. I had no clue about the importance of World On Wheels and the Uncle Jamm's Army parties. The music just sounded good to me despite the regional differences. With the flood of new hip hop artists emerging in the wake of Master P's breakthrough, that was one of the first times I saw hip hop coming from the folks I related to the most. Do I love the whole "let me put 300 tracks on one album with some skits" trend that P started? No. Did I love the cheap ass, almost bordering on parody album covers? No. However, it was never about respectability politics. It was about people within hip hop/rap no longer being able to de-legitimize or discredit the people that come from what and where I come from. Don't believe me? Then why does Beyonce, one of the biggest pop icons of recent history, need to put Messy Mya and Big Freedia sound drops on her albums? Why are New York rappers trying sound like they're from Atlanta and New Orleans? It's the last vestige of legitimacy. Whether you're a small time independent artist or an icon, you're NOTHING without that legitimacy (especially now in era when people aren't actually selling albums). So you can call Master P whatever, but all I know is he fucking put an entire genre on it's goddamn head.

- We already had the performance art thing discussion here, and I gave push back to that. However, I would say the amount of longevity you have shows that what you're doing is at least somewhat credible. That and IMO it's like Eddie Murphy's bit about Cosby believing all Eddie's act was just a bunch of curse words after Cosby's son went to go see Eddie perform. It's going to always go back to the subjective. When it comes to wrestling, I never wanted to whittle it down the lowest common denominator. It always just pro wrestling to me. Personally, I never gave a fuck about Bret Hart feeling that Ric Flair was a routine man. I loved Bret Hart. I loved Ric Flair. That was it. Same with Foley and Flair. My favorite wrestlers are my favorite wrestlers even if they diss each other. I was watching Flair vs. Wahoo from Battle of the Belts I (I plan on posting that match when the anniversary of the match comes in few days) not too long ago. It was a terrible show so Flair being awesome was only going to be amplified, but he was a fucking GREAT. Wahoo was fine, but Flair was in entirely different stratosphere. At no point in the match was I like "...I wonder how much artistry is going into this match?" Didn't cross my mind. I'm not saying completely turn your brain off, but what certain wrestlers have the ability to do is make you unable to delineate what is real sport and what is art in that particular match. If I, as a person not within pro wrestling, can tell you detail for detail what you're doing...your shit is entirely too see through. I don't want that in my pro wrestling. I don't.

I've been watching some of the late 96 Raws and buddy, Steve Austin is just on entirely different level. Between a couple of those Raws, there was the Pillman chair/ankle spot (I guess the birth of the term "Pillmanize") on WWF Superstars at the Cincinnati Gardens. I didn't even know that whole thing wasn't even on Raw. The entire angle was brilliant because they didn't try to insult your intelligence. Ironically, they didn't even try to shit on WCW because Austin turning on his "friend" Brian Pillman was contingent on people knowing Austin believed he carried Pillman to the tag team titles in WCW. Austin also didn't exactly care that Pillman was so enamored with Austin's #1 target, Bret Hart, whose father just so happened to have trained Pillman. The Stone Cold character was based on if you're not 100% with me, then you're 100% against me. He didn't give a fuck about it being his old running buddy from WCW. Matter of fact, destroying Pillman was going to send a big message...a warning to Bret: If I don't give a damn about him, what do you think I'm going to do to you? It's complex yet so simple at the same time. Austin didn't turn on Pillman just to do a turn. They didn't have to spell out everything. They didn't have to beat you over the head with stuff. No one was indecisive in their actions. It was something that was incredibly well put together. If Steve Austin (or Steve Williams) doesn't know how to convey what he is doing or what he is suppose to be, it's all moot. I say that because the birth of the NOD was on the Livewire the Saturday before the gun angle. Ross had hyped up Ron Simmons' appearance on Livewire the Raw that week, which was a few weeks after Sunny and Farooq amicably split as Sunny inadvertently cost Farooq the vacant IC title vs. Marc Mero. So I'm safely guessing they decided to drop the stupid Spartan or w/e the hell he was suppose to be in creative that particular week. Ross said he would be completely different. Simmons shows up with Clarence Mason on Livewire and has this big back and forth with Ahmed and then some "callers". As much as Simmons is trying to give this a good go, you can tell they don't really know how to pull this off completely. You can also tell this is a bunch of white dudes coming up with this with possibly some input from Ron, and they kinda remember some stuff they saw from Farrakhan's appearances on Donahue. It shows promise, but it's so bad at the same time. It's just Ron mixing a whole bunch of talking points together that really aren't cohesive. However, when it's white people putting it together, they probably just think it's all babble anyway. That's a huge problem. You're being dismissive of highly relevant social issues from different cultures, but at the same time wondering, "man, why didn't this character get over like we intended?" Hell, this is why I basically agreed with New Jack railing against NOD. It was flawed from the beginning because just like Jack said, "It wasn't convincing coming from Ron Simmons." To me, it wasn't because Ron wasn't black enough but what the hell was the message he was trying to convey? If you ask Ron today, he probably can't even give you a good answer. It was all over the place. Now place that up against just the Stone Cold/Pillman stuff. It's proof that good and bad shit is born of the same place. Granted, Austin was so adamant on how his character should be shaped and how to get it over. It still had to be cleared at the end of the day through the same person: Vince McMahon.

- As for someone like Yumiko Hotta, going through some of her stuff, she has the physical bad ass woman charisma down pat. Yeah, some of her stuff is just devolving into a generic kick fest. If you go through the pivotal matches when she was younger though, it's "I'm going to dish out some punishment but I expect to take your best shit as well".  I think one of the issues I had when I first got into joshi was, "these are a bunch of androgynous women trying their damnedest to wrestle like men and it's agonizing." However, it was like saying Axl Rotten vs. Ian Rotten in a shitty death match or 911 vs. Hack Meyers is what ECW is. Each match is just a snapshot of that moment. Take for example a match I just posted not too long ago, the Kandori vs. Hotta red title match from a LLPW show (I have the switch back to Hotta on DVD fwiw). Ten or so years ago, I would have shitted all over that match. There is something about Kandori where I go, "Yeah, you trying too hard." However, Hotta makes the match more than palatable because she's trying to get Kandori over a legit killer and the match itself over as two perennial bad asses going at it. There is this understated feminine energy of "Bitch, I'm going to try to fuck you up" that Hotta provides that usually a match like this would lack. I am not saying two very masculine women can't wrestle as much it's harder to get in sync as a wrestling match if two people provide the exact same things. Look at Flair vs. Steamboat. Misawa vs. Kawada. Misawa vs. Kobashi. Austin vs. Bret Hart. You need different ingredients to make shit work. At any point, that match could have just been a bad UWFi match but Hotta wouldn't let it be. Same could be said about Asuka vs. Hotta from years earlier, but Lioness was equally pulling her weight in that one compared Kandori. There is a sense of "this is what this wrestler is and here is how I can play off of that". No more, no less. There is a blend of vulnerability (through facial expressions, movements, etc.) matched with toughness and certain intangibles that creates high drama. Earlier I was saying what I didn't want. That blend is what I do want in my pro wrestling. How you choose to get to that destination I have no problem with AS LONG AS you get to that destination.

[supremebve]

3 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Also, flair’s formulaic matches really only began once he became touring champion. 

So, a good local restaurant that went national and became cookie cutter? 

Yes and no.  I think Flair is great, but he's like the Shawn Michaels prototype.  If you went to see Flair you were going to get you money's worth, but it's all steak and lobster.  If you want innovative vegetarian fare, they'd just look at you and say, "why would you want that when you could have this?"  Ric Flair was trying to give you the best that he had every single night, but what he thought was the best had much more to do with his effort and much less to do with giving you something unique.  I think the reason him and Foley never got a long is that Foley was constantly doing something to give the fans something they've never seen, when Flair wanted to give you the best version of the thing you're used to watching.  Flair wasn't attempting to be creative as much as he was trying to be the best.

[Jiji]

19 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

- As for someone like Yumiko Hotta, going through some of her stuff, she has the physical bad ass woman charisma down pat. Yeah, some of her stuff is just devolving into a generic kick fest. If you go through the pivotal matches when she was younger though, it's "I'm going to dish out some punishment but I expect to take your best shit as well".  I think one of the issues I had when I first got into joshi was, "these are a bunch of androgynous women trying their damnedest to wrestle like men and it's agonizing." However, it was like saying Axl Rotten vs. Ian Rotten in a shitty death match or 911 vs. Hack Meyers is what ECW is. Each match is just a snapshot of that moment. Take for example a match I just posted not too long ago, the Kandori vs. Hotta red title match from a LLPW show (I have the switch back to Hotta on DVD fwiw). Ten or so years ago, I would have shitted all over that match. There is something about Kandori where I go, "Yeah, you trying too hard." However, Hotta makes the match more than palatable because she's trying to get Kandori over a legit killer and the match itself over as two perennial bad asses going at it. There is this understated feminine energy of "Bitch, I'm going to try to fuck you up" that Hotta provides that usually a match like this would lack. I am not saying two very masculine women can't wrestle as much it's harder to get in sync as a wrestling match if two people provide the exact same things. Look at Flair vs. Steamboat. Misawa vs. Kawada. Misawa vs. Kobashi. Austin vs. Bret Hart. You need different ingredients to make shit work. At any point, that match could have just been a bad UWFi match but Hotta wouldn't let it be. Same could be said about Asuka vs. Hotta from years earlier, but Lioness was equally pulling her weight in that one compared Kandori. There is a sense of "this is what this wrestler is and here is how I can play off of that". No more, no less. There is a blend of vulnerability (through facial expressions, movements, etc.) matched with toughness and certain intangibles that creates high drama. Earlier I was saying what I didn't want. That blend is what I do want in my pro wrestling. How you choose to get to that destination I have no problem with AS LONG AS you get to that destination.

This is true and I was being harsh on Hotta. It felt wrong after I hit "submit reply". She definitely had more to her than just kicking bitches, though it sometimes felt like she regressed to that. The Grand Prix final vs. Hokuto in '93 was a classic because she went beyond what she normally does in her tag matches and the few singles matches I've seen from her in that '92-'93 period, to prove her worth to the fans, Hokuto, and herself. 

And yeah, early Stone Cold before he became a caricature was probably the best wrestling character of all time. He was horrifying and captivating, completely unpredictable. I fucking loved Nutty Brian Pillman as a Canadian kid with very little understanding of his history in WCW or with Austin there. From the incredible toilet stall angle where Austin pops up behind Pillman cutting a promo in the back to the Pillmanize angle and the climax with the house invasion, it's just next level shit. Raw was actually raw. Austin BEAT THE SHIT outta those slobs acting as Pillman's security. The energy Austin had at that moment was just unreal. And to tie that together with your Farooq point, there was a promo with Austin and McMahon from I think early '97 or so when Austin was just starting to become a face of some sorts... Simmons and the NOD interrupt him on the Tron from the back and Simmons cuts this rambling promo about hard times as a Black kid that has a point but he's taking the hella scenic route in going there. Austin just cuts him off eventually yelling "SHYAAADUP!" which cracked me the fuck up even though the racial implications are ugly. Simmons wasn't the guy to pull that role off even though he had the presence, his mic skills weren't quite there and, more importantly as you've touched on, the writing was poor and clearly done by a bunch of ignorant white guys. "This is what it sounds like when Blacks whine, right?"

Edited August 27, 2020 by Jiji