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8 hours ago, Doc Townsend said:

Does anyone watch AEW who isn't fairly familiar with indy wrestling?

I dug KIngston's appearance last night, but I was wondering what a causal fan who doesn't watch much indie wrestling would make of him.  His only nationwide tv appearances have been TNA, right?  So unless you're streaming (or buying dvds of shows) Chikara, CZW, etc., you may not know much about him.  If you weren't really familiar with King, you probably saw a pasty fat guy in jobberish ring attire and wondered what the h*ll was going on.

Then again, a casual fan probably would be bewildered by a large chunk of AEW;s roster.  Lucha Bros, Orange Cassidy, Best Friends, Player Uno, the Japanese women, etc.  I hate to think what you make of Evil Uno if you didn't see him and Stu Grayson in the indies ten years ago and build up some goodwill for them.

I guess my question is: Is AEW attracting causal fans who didn't watch indie wrestling before it got a time slot on TNT?

(I would guess the answer is: even fewer than WWE, which I doubt attracts a lot of casual fans anymore either.)

My Twitter account is basically for hockey news and hockey news only, but there's a bit of crossover wrestling-wise.  The only person I saw tweet about Kingston last night was an Islanders reporter who said "Who is this jabronie?!" but I think he also might be a WWE lifer (I think he retweeted Tazz making fun of WWE insulting the fans' intelligence by saying "WWE lives rent-free in Taz's head" so...) so take that for what it's worth.

I loved that first hour but was rather cool on the second hour. 
-Kingston was really great and I wish he had won.  Even if he low-blowed Cody to win it and dropped it back next week, I think it would have been a fun bit of chaos.  I think re-aligning him with Oritz/Santana would up their value 100%.  That said, as good as Kingston was, I think the best place for him is somewhere like Impact! (I LOVED him in Impact!) because I think he might get lost in the shuffle in AEW, unless he becomes a high-level wrestler or teams mouthpiece.

-MJF-Griff was an entertaining squash.

-I wish, even with shenanigans, that Butcher and Blade could have finally gotten an actual important win over the Bucks.  Makes me wonder if their contract with AEW is limited.  I know Mick Foley (And possibly Chris Jericho) in his book talked about how when his WWF deal was close to expiring and he hadn't committed to re-signing that Vince told him they weren't going to be doing much for him until they know he's coming back. That's kind of how B&B feel in that they're on the show every week, they gets lots of screentime, and they NEVER beat anyone of any import.  Announcing was a little WWE-esque at first, as they were so busy talking about stuff they ignored the Bucks picking up and slapping B&B with steaks.  I laughed really hard when Blade went for that dive and the Buck got out of the way, and then Blade missed the table, too and Schiavone went "He missed everything!"  How long has Butcher been wrestling?  Because he kind of has "it".  With AEW's massive tag division, their might be a bigger future in Blade being Butcher's manager and sending him after Cody or Moxley.

-Archer destroying those poor guys in the locker-room was entertaining.

-Someone should have really checked with either Ivelisse-Diamante ahead of time about what they were going to wear, because both coming out making their Dynamite debuts with bandit-style scarves, carrying flags (Were they both Puerto Rican flags, too?) was kind of an odd choice.  There was some sort of mutual respect thing going on before they cut to commercials, so I'd assume it was a way to play into them being a team for that women's tag thing they advertised.  Match was all right.  Ending a little flat.

-Angels-Page was pretty nothing.  AEW are damned sure going all-in and trying to make Dark Order a thing.  I'm still not interested.  Of course, I'm not as big on Page as the rest of you nor FTR, so this was a pretty unmemorable segment for me.

-Jericho/Hager-Jungle/Lucha was okay but I had the ending spoiled for me by Sammy's IG.  I did enjoy the announcers trying to put over Serpentico as joining the Inner Circle before being surprised by Guevara, even though Sammy has a particularly distinct gait and fighting-style that I think I would have figured it out, even without the spoiler.

Edited by caley
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Flair is a different animal when compared to the promos of Dusty & Eddie. The former is supposed to be in an upper class athletes, while the later are blue collar characters. You really shouldn’t compare them. Flair Vs. Hogan Vs. The Rock Vs. Cena should be the proper battle of their division.

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47 minutes ago, RolandTHTG said:

I think that's something that would make sense long-term if they build on it - sort of like the Prizefighter gimmick Kevin Owens had when he first joined NXT. I just hope they build a story on to it, that the loss meant something, why he sacrificed it by tapping, etc.

The Ricky Starks program didn't really do it, he just had a few matches on Dark and then randomly ended up in a pairing with Brian Cage instead. 

In fact, all of the matches to date haven't really amounted to anything. How do they continue to promote this opportunity of a shot against Cody Rhodes as such a prestigious career changing experience, when to date, nothing has changed for any of the 6 for better or worse? Jungle Boy is still in the same spot. Marq Quen in the same, lesser spot, probably Sonny Kiss too. 

By the same token, Hager should be pissed about dropping a controversial fall to Cody rather than carrying on with routine Inner Circle stuff. Archer should want a rematch. MJF has beaten Cody before and is undefeated, why wouldn't he want to take his title?

If we're talking in just a strictly kayfabe sense, I take it as the guy getting the shot at the belt is paid higher for that bout than your usual bout. If a boxer hasn't gotten higher than $25,000 for any given bout in his career, I would say getting $200,000 to fight one of the belt holders in his division would be quite life changing. In that way, it's the closer they've been to a sport.

As for being in the same spot, I don't buy that you automatically need to move up the card inside of two months. It would rather pointless to create a secondary title then move the guys that he beats ABOVE him especially in two months. You only do that for guys who are super over or blue chippers. I mean Cody himself really isn't involved in any of the main programs due to the open challenge thing. Hell, he was opening the card this week while Hager and Jungle Boy are in the main event tagging/working with either the 1a or 1b star in the promotion. That's not exactly being stagnant especially when you consider they got all the time in the world with someone like Jungle Boy. As for the other people you listed, I like the take-on-all-comers approach for some of the talent who otherwise would struggle to get TV time. Again, getting back to the sports build approach like with boxing, high level gatekeepers usually get the rub of the PBP guy telling the fans, "Hey, we all remember when _____ gave a good account of himself against the champion.That's why he is getting another shot on television." It gives the commentators some to do a callback on and allow the viewers go back and reference that as well. Is a main event push? No, but everyone doesn't deserve that anyway.

The guy who ends up beating Cody for the belt is going to get that rub and rightfully so.

Edited by Elsalvajeloco
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8 hours ago, Doc Townsend said:

Does anyone watch AEW who isn't fairly familiar with indy wrestling?

I dug KIngston's appearance last night, but I was wondering what a causal fan who doesn't watch much indie wrestling would make of him.  His only nationwide tv appearances have been TNA, right?  So unless you're streaming (or buying dvds of shows) Chikara, CZW, etc., you may not know much about him.  If you weren't really familiar with King, you probably saw a pasty fat guy in jobberish ring attire and wondered what the h*ll was going on.

Then again, a casual fan probably would be bewildered by a large chunk of AEW;s roster.  Lucha Bros, Orange Cassidy, Best Friends, Player Uno, the Japanese women, etc.  I hate to think what you make of Evil Uno if you didn't see him and Stu Grayson in the indies ten years ago and build up some goodwill for them.

I guess my question is: Is AEW attracting causal fans who didn't watch indie wrestling before it got a time slot on TNT?

(I would guess the answer is: even fewer than WWE, which I doubt attracts a lot of casual fans anymore either.)

*raises hand*

i've never watched a full event of CZW, Chikara, PWG, IWA-MS, or any of the other indies. i stopped watching WWE around 2006. i watched TNA in 2005-06. Never followed ROH but have seen bits and pieces. the only way i really "follow" wrestling is through this board.

i went to All In 2 years ago, but had to study up because i had no idea who a lot of the wrestlers were. Pentagon Jr? never heard of him. Joey Ryan? all i had seen was the dick flip. Joey Janela? some hardcore guy i guess? 

the NWA Ten Pounds of Gold series got me following that promotion from its inception until the shutdown. i was on board with AEW from day one. basically all of their debuting wrestlers are completely new to me but i'm excited to see what they offer.

 

re: Colt Cabana's t-shirt tweet with the obscured "cult". perfect design. i am laughing at him being friends with someone with the first name "Evil"

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26 minutes ago, Phantom Lord said:

I'm just a fan of when promotions would co-work with each other.

I'd lose it to see Aron Stevens and the Question Mark show up to rep Mongrovia only to be interrupted by Orange Cassidy. 

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AEW is on a roll again.  Great week of television I was loving the bucks against butcher and the blade and the inner circle stuff is so good and I love Moxley's Misfits. 

As for ratings, NXT needs their stars in prominent positions weekly (Keith Lee, Role Models)

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3 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

If we're talking in just a strictly kayfabe sense, I take it as the guy getting the shot at the belt is paid higher for that bout than your usual bout. If a boxer hasn't gotten higher than $25,000 for any given bout in his career, I would say getting $200,000 to fight one of the belt holders in his division would be quite life changing. In that way, it's the closer they've been to a sport.

As for being in the same spot, I don't buy that you automatically need to move up the card inside of two months. It would rather pointless to create a secondary title then move the guys that he beats ABOVE him especially in two months. You only do that for guys who are super over or blue chippers. I mean Cody himself really isn't involved in any of the main programs due to the open challenge thing. Hell, he was opening the card this week while Hager and Jungle Boy are in the main event tagging/working with either the 1a or 1b star in the promotion. That's not exactly being stagnant especially when you consider they got all the time in the world with someone like Jungle Boy. As for the other people you listed, I like the take-on-all-comers approach for some of the talent who otherwise would struggle to get TV time. Again, getting back to the sports build approach like with boxing, high level gatekeepers usually get the rub of the PBP guy telling the fans, "Hey, we all remember when _____ gave a good account of themselves against the champion.That's why he is getting another shot on television." It gives the commentators some to do a callback on and allow the viewers go back and reference that as well. Is a main event push? No, but everyone doesn't deserve that anyway.

The guy who ends up beating Cody for the belt is going to get that rub and rightfully so.

Agree with what you're saying from the pay-windah perspective.

Don't necessarily believe that they need to move up the card or down or whatever (although noting that Hager and Jungle Boy were already doing those things before their shots), but for a life changing title shot, there should be some sort of effect on their character/storyline, etc. "How has losing this match impacted them as a character the week after?" sort of thing. It's the same thing WWE gets criticised for in having smiley just happy to be here, fun loving babyfaces. These guys come out the week after and barely acknowledge the loss.  And when that happens with guys losing in the main event at Wrestlemania, that will take some time to adjust, but I don't like that no-one so far has taken that loss and used it to develop their character or storyline, even just for a few weeks. 

From a pure sports perspective, yes, those matches will do exactly as you say, and build them as credible contenders ongoing, but for the time being, not enough seems to be doing done to draw interest to those matches down the line, but that could also just be me not really wanting to see Cody beat a different guy every week for the sake of it either.

 

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5 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

I'd lose it to see Aron Stevens and the Question Mark show up to rep Mongrovia only to be interrupted by Orange Cassidy. 

I want to see Thunder Rosa accept Hikaru Shida's challenge for competition. 

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2 minutes ago, RolandTHTG said:

Agree with what you're saying from the pay-windah perspective.

Don't necessarily believe that they need to move up the card or down or whatever (although noting that Hager and Jungle Boy were already doing those things before their shots), but for a life changing title shot, there should be some sort of effect on their character/storyline, etc. "How has losing this match impacted them as a character the week after?" sort of thing. It's the same thing WWE gets criticised for in having smiley just happy to be here, fun loving babyfaces. These guys come out the week after and barely acknowledge the loss.  And when that happens with guys losing in the main event at Wrestlemania, that will take some time to adjust, but I don't like that no-one so far has taken that loss and used it to develop their character or storyline, even just for a few weeks. 

From a pure sports perspective, yes, those matches will do exactly as you say, and build them as credible contenders ongoing, but for the time being, not enough seems to be doing done to draw interest to those matches down the line, but that could also just be me not really wanting to see Cody beat a different guy every week for the sake of it either.

Well, ideally, after a loss you would go back to the drawing board and get back in the gym. I think if COVID-19 hadn't thrown them a curveball, we wouldn't even have gotten a chance to see Starks or Eddie. So with that, I think that's TK taking advantage to introduce new characters and possible big time players down the line. You can forgive them for that, but I think with Eddie...he can pivot from that because he won me over with his overall presence and delivery. The amount of buzz they were able to garner makes me feel that if he stays in AEW, he would make a difference.

As for the other folks since Cody won the belt, besides Hager who will be alright being the muscle for the Inner Circle, they're all babyfaces. If Cody was a heel, I think you would see which one has the best in ring chemistry with him and go from there. The problem is you don't want to make a face seem like he is making excuses for losing. Personally, I would like to see Cody become increasingly more like an arrogant asshole because he keeps winning and winning and fully turn heel. Then someone like Jungle Boy humbles him in an upset after initially being denied another crack at the TNT title. He becomes the first person to challenge for the title and then becomes the first to defeat the incumbent champion.

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6 hours ago, Linus said:

Those AEW action figures look ace but I’m FORTY EIGHT YEARS OLD - I can’t buy toys, can I?!?

@OSJ would say otherwise, but his wife wouldn't necessarily agree....

 

back on topic, i found it odd the announcers referenced Dark Order #5's past as Alan Angels. that wasn't an angle, correct? i thought they were presented as different people. Unless i've missed it, Preston Vance hasn't been outed as #10.

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4 minutes ago, twiztor said:

@OSJi found it odd the announcers referenced Dark Order #5's past as Alan Angels. that wasn't an angle, correct? i thought they were presented as different people. Unless i've missed it, Preston Vance hasn't been outed as #10.

You did miss it. There was a whole vingette about him deciding to join The Dark Order and all the steps he took to get in.

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8 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Well, ideally, after a loss you would go back to the drawing board and get back in the gym. I think if COVID-19 hadn't thrown them a curveball, we wouldn't even have gotten a chance to see Starks or Eddie. So with that, I think that's TK taking advantage to introduce new characters and possible big time players down the line. You can forgive them for that, but I think with Eddie...he can pivot from that because he won me over with his overall presence and delivery. The amount of buzz they were able to garner makes me feel that if he stays in AEW, he would make a difference.

As for the other folks since Cody won the belt, besides Hager who will be alright being the muscle for the Inner Circle, they're all babyfaces. If Cody was a heel, I think you would see which one has the best in ring chemistry with him and go from there. The problem is you don't want to make a face seem like he is making excuses for losing. Personally, I would like to see Cody become increasingly more like an arrogant asshole because he keeps winning and winning and fully turn heel. Then someone like Jungle Boy humbles him in an upset after initially being denied another crack at the TNT title. He becomes the first person to challenge for the title and then becomes the first to defeat the incumbent champion.

That gives me an idea... Make A Difference Kingston! He can give motivational speeches to the kids about overcoming difficult background upbringing, folks. We are truly progressive! *pats own back*

449,000+ "White" profiles | LinkedIn (the most generic white executive)

I agree with the general trajectory and it's almost assuredly where they are going, but man do I love that idea floated here last week of Moxley accepting the open challenge, losing and demanding a rematch for his title, only for Cody to then turn heel during the match.

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I think Cody's heel progression has reached the point when they can pull the trigger any day now and it would work. We've had a few matches in which he's used outright heel tactics to win and last night Kingston pointed out his hypocrisy in only taking easy challengers because he's afraid to lose the title. He doesn't need to lose the belt to turn (although losing it before he even gets a chance to wear the finished version would be funny) but unless they have another Starks or Kingston (or this Warhorse fella, who I have not yet seen) they need to debut, I think the table has been adequately set. If that is the story they do want to tell, of course.

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I’ve never seen an Eddie Kingston match in my life, but I post on here and places like EWB and Reddit so I know of him. I like his style though, just a normal looking dude with a normal build dropping motherfuckers on their necks and hitting you with palm strikes and chops and punches and nasty kicks. I dig it, sign me up.

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Only other guys I can think of are Hero and Dickinson but you really don't need both Hero and Kingston, I guess.

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2 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

They let 'em fall into thumbtacks at the top of the show. 

 

 

I get that, but I’d swear Tony Kahn said before that there’s certain hardcore things TNT won’t allow. So outside of certain language issues the only two things I can think of would be using barbed wire, and using fire. Since neither one has happened on Dynamite, but they have used barbed wire on PPV.

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They've shown Barbed Wire on TV loads. This week even, Mox had a Barbed Wire Bat. And Kenny had the giant Brush wrapped in Bob Wire for a while.

They did Glass on the first ever Dynamite.

See that Lance Archer locker room jobber assault? Did anyone get Darth Vader in Rogue One vibes from that?

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3 hours ago, twiztor said:

re: Colt Cabana's t-shirt tweet with the obscured "cult". perfect design. i am laughing at him being friends with someone with the first name "Evil"

qfKdKx_3Aow_pMcBKC0fI9KIgZvziNB6ZD3tpcFc

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Need more Archer destroying locker rooms of local talent. Plz & thx

Edited by Hayabusa
ffs I just want Butcher vs Hobbs just once, competitive sub 10 minute hoss fight
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12 hours ago, Casey said:

(AEW was .31 to NXT’s .33 in the 50+)

WWE is going to have to rethink how they open NXT or they are going to continue to get buried.  The downside is that AEW has now set a very high bar for hour one of Dynamite, especially the curtain jerker so I am going to expect that sort of draw every week and am ultimately setting myself up for disappointment.

Edited by J.T.
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Moxley belongs in the “top promo guys of 2010-2020” discussion.

 

i saw Eddie live last year for the first time. Was tremendous.

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12 hours ago, Jiji said:

Unless you're talking wrestling overall... I think it'll take years for AEW to build up an audience to beat WWE's overall viewership even if things there continue to decline.

Momentum swings quickly. Television as a general rule swings in and out of vogue quickly: wrestling is a product that proved to work big once upon a time but has hit a nadir with WWE offering in recent years. Raw is ahead by, what, 850k or so viewers this week. In the grand scheme of things if AEW really nail it then that is nothing to recoup. It is 100% what they should be aiming for, not the C-List NXT brand. It should be an absolute given that they beat NXT week on week.

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15 hours ago, For Great Justice said:

I still can’t wrap my head around AEW doubling NXT up in the key demo. Just off the cuff it *feels* like AEW is targeted at early 30’s types while WWE is targeted at kids. NXT’s fan base being old as dirt is not something I’d have expected. 

AEW seems to have really hit a second stride now. They were there just after Revolution, had a lull with the early COVID stuff, but are now back full force. 

It doesn't help that some of the commercials during NXT are targeting that 50+ demo more than they should.  I couldn't believe I saw a commercial for a urine-collecting machine for seniors yet there it was.  It just saddened me as I love NXT and most of the people on there but it doesn't have that cool factor like it used to.  I know that most of the 18-49 demo went to AEW and that's now the cool brand but I wish NXT could find a way to get its mojo back.  But both put on good shows, it's just that AEW most of the time puts on a much better show.

Edited by NikoBaltimore
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I think NXT has always primarily appealed to older fans; we just didn’t know it, because it was on the Network and we couldn’t see ~The Demos.

I mean, look back at the Golden Age of NXT 3 or 4 years ago.  One of its primary appeals was that it was staged like a retro studio show—not as overtly “retro” in its aesthetic as something like NWA Power, but the slower pacing of cards, how characters and stories were built, etc. were  all right out of the 80’s studio show playbook.

And I don’t think that has ever appealed to the majority of people below a certain age who didn’t already hold some level of nostalgia for it.  It was an old format for older fans.

The current live show is a Frankenstein of that old format and the current main roster format, and just sucks, more often than not.

Edited by EVA
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