JULY 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[odessasteps]

51 minutes ago, Infinit said:

RE: Excalibur 

I'd like to think I'm a pretty socially conscious person. That being said, am I the only person that thinks this is much ado about nothing because he was a character saying a line in an angle at a wrestling show and not in real life? 

I don’t think that Kind of caveat is usually sufficient for people on a crusade. 

[JohnnyJ]

I look at Rollins as a recipient of the HHH push. He has had a sustained push from the moment he was on the roster. He is always featured prominently whether or not the fans are entertained by what he is doing. It doesn't matter if he is a ratings black hole or if the house show business is in the toilet, you can count on Rollins getting a featured spot. 

[Jiji]

Am I outta my damned mind or is the last NJPW Sano/Liger match from early 1990 super overrated? I remember LOVING the first two because there was so much heat and hatred. But the third one has almost no heat (the crowd kinda gets into it by the end) and is overly long. I need to rewatch the first two from '89 to see if they also don't hold up. But yeah, the '90 one finished as 4th on the DVDVR best of the '90s NJPW results. Wow. I disagree. Like give me Saito/Zbyszko from the Dome that same year. Way more drama and emotion.

[Brian Fowler]

7 hours ago, Casey said:

I think my favorite Rollins match was against Cena at SummerSlam 2015.

Legit laughed out loud at Fowler saying he'd rather watch Jinder Mahal's run on top then relive anything Rollins did in the main event. Yes, I too enjoy subpar matches and racist promos!

I was not, in any way, calling Mahal's run good. Just, you know, better than Seth's.

[Eivion]

5 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Am I outta my damned mind or is the last NJPW Sano/Liger match from early 1990 super overrated? I remember LOVING the first two because there was so much heat and hatred. But the third one has almost no heat (the crowd kinda gets into it by the end) and is overly long. I need to rewatch the first two from '89 to see if they also don't hold up. But yeah, the '90 one finished as 4th on the DVDVR best of the '90s NJPW results. Wow. I disagree. Like give me Saito/Zbyszko from the Dome that same year. Way more drama and emotion.

I can't remember if I have seen all three or only one. I just know the one I can actually remember I found pretty damn boring. 

[Jiji]

For real though. I have little doubt it's the 90 one because the others are short and super violent. 

[odessasteps]

Isn't the third match the debut of the shooting star press? 

[ChesterCopperpot]

 

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by ChesterCopperpot

[Octopus]

39 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Am I outta my damned mind or is the last NJPW Sano/Liger match from early 1990 super overrated? I remember LOVING the first two because there was so much heat and hatred. But the third one has almost no heat (the crowd kinda gets into it by the end) and is overly long. I need to rewatch the first two from '89 to see if they also don't hold up. But yeah, the '90 one finished as 4th on the DVDVR best of the '90s NJPW results. Wow. I disagree. Like give me Saito/Zbyszko from the Dome that same year. Way more drama and emotion.

Not out of your mind, a fair opinion to have. My enjoyment from the 90’s match was the build up of the previous 89 matches and adding Thunder to his name.  Hot head Liger starts with a slap instead of shaking Sano’s hand, gets his mask ripped and blooded, ending with what @odessasteps said. More of an emotional hate filled brawl.

I’ll need to rewatch them all. I remember really enjoying the 89 ones. I recall the July one having a cool looking awkward superplex to the apron. I think it was also more back and forth than the 90 one, but I could be misremembering that. 

The August match had really good arm selling from Liger. I think this one I’m most excited to rewatch. 

I enjoy reading your opinion, What would you say the Top 5 Liger matches are? And that goes to anyone, also.

[Craig H]

Man, sure am glad they cut costs by releasing all of those wrestlers.

[Jiji]

32 minutes ago, Octopus said:

Not out of your mind, a fair opinion to have. My enjoyment from the 90’s match was the build up of the previous 89 matches and adding Thunder to his name.  Hot head Liger starts with a slap instead of shaking Sano’s hand, gets his mask ripped and blooded, ending with what @odessasteps said. More of an emotional hate filled brawl.

I’ll need to rewatch them all. I remember really enjoying the 89 ones. I recall the July one having a cool looking awkward superplex to the apron. I think it was also more back and forth than the 90 one, but I could be misremembering that. 

The August match had really good arm selling from Liger. I think this one I’m most excited to rewatch. 

I enjoy reading your opinion, What would you say the Top 5 Liger matches are? And that goes to anyone, also.

Sano dominates the '90 match. Takes about 80% of it, Liger comes back with the bloody face exposed, hits some sweet moves and it's over. The other ones were more wild sprints but it's been years since I've seen them. I remember the suplex spot you're talking about. 

The Owen match from around the same time as the last Sano match, held in the same building, is another mostly heatless affair but Owen gets his shit in and looked great. Not a great match but it was a showcase for Owen.

Top 5 Liger, man... It's been so long since I've watched his '90s work or CTU heel stuff. I'd have to rewatch a bunch, which certainly isn't bad. A lot of the bomb fests from the '90s don't really age particularly well because, while they were innovative at the time, it looks antiquated by today's standards. He was usually better at working a crowd, timing out the big moves, selling than a lot of the junior flashy guys of today though. I really do value the first two Sano matches highly in my mind, but now I'm going to have to revisit them to see how they hold up. I remember adoring some of his work in the NOAH feud too, particularly the tag with Murahama. Is there a comprehensive Liger comp out there that covers his entire career? I've been in a comp frame of mind lately. I know Will has a '89-'96 bad boy. That would be a good starting place, though some of his matches as Yamada, pre-Liger, were fun too. What about you? What are your top 5 Liger matches?

Edited July 30, 2020 by Jiji

[nofuture]

6 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Man, sure am glad they cut costs by releasing all of those wrestlers.

That doesn't even figure into their profits this quarter since all those released wrestlers were getting paid up until the 17th of this month.  In other words:

Edited July 30, 2020 by nofuture

[Craig H]

6 minutes ago, nofuture said:

That doesn't even figure into their profits this quarter since all those released wrestlers were getting paid up until the 17th of this month.  In other words:

Yeah. I know

On the flipside, Rusev is enjoying life, other guys have found work, so at least some rebounded.

[Jiji]

Watching the first Liger/Sano match and the Sumo Hall crowd is INTO THIS and the opening chain wrestling is crisp as hell. This is the match with the insane inside to outside suplex from the apron on Sano, followed by a barely in control tope suicida, and finished with Liger hitting a rolling senton from the top to the floor on a downed Sano. This... THIS is the Sano vs. Liger I remember and love. Just wild stuff with extra juice on everything. Is the story that Sano didn't respect the kid's show gimmick? He definitely seemed dismissive in the opening until Liger starts coming back in a big way. Fans thought the match was going to end on a countout because A) holy shit, Liger that was insane especially for '89, B) Sano's selling*, and C) it's the '80s and that's how so many big matches ended though by now they were moving away from that thankfully (hold that thought).

*He may have been legitimately concussed by that salvo from Liger. He gets back in the ring, stumbling all over the place, Liger whips him into the ropes, he stumbles and falls backwards into them. Holy shit. Liger smartly puts him in a dragon sleeper to give Sano time to recover. Oh yeah, looks like a real concussion or some injury because he's a step off for a bit here. Sano later goes for a plancha, hits Liger a bit but doesn't really get caught and smashes face first into the ground. That ain't going to help. He's got a trickle of blood coming down from his forehead after the half-failure of a dive too. He proceeds to GO TO THE TOP for a ridiculous negative air dropkick to the outside. He's hit his own crazy combination of dives now. This fits the theme of these two trading back and forth, pushing each other to their limits. The mat sequences at the start laid the groundwork, with them trading holds such as the Romero special, and fancy escapes and such. It culminates when a top rope dropkick from Sano meets a Liger counter dropkick. There's a meta element of raw excitement and emotion because I think everybody in the crowd realizes how fucked up Sano is from that earlier death combination from Liger. The ending is a bit flat for the crowd, as an avalanche backdrop suplex keeps both men down and it's a double knockout. HOWEVER, that plays into the story they told of tit for tat. I think this may be Liger's best. Gotta watch the sequels now but the emotion, craziness, and the story is just A++++++. 

[Death From Above]

I think if you look at the shape of modern wrestling, it would honestly be difficult to overstate the influence of Liger or Rey Jr. Liger if you're a bit older, Rey if you're solidly in the younger camp. And it's true there are a ton of guys in current wrestling who can do gymnastic stuff Liger never did, but I will say I've seen few (if any?) people that were better at consistently reading an audience and giving them the match they wanted to see than Liger.

[mattdangerously]

On 7/29/2020 at 5:07 AM, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Also just seeing this stuff makes me eye it cynically. Like I wouldn’t be surprised if they are thinking deep down about not bothering with fans anymore, in the same way grocery stores are doing away with self checkout lanes.

They are absolutely not thinking about doing away with fan attendance. 

6 hours ago, Infinit said:

RE: Excalibur 

I'd like to think I'm a pretty socially conscious person. That being said, am I the only person that thinks this is much ado about nothing because he was a character saying a line in an angle at a wrestling show and not in real life? 

Do you feel the same way about DX wearing blackface? 

[odessasteps]

Ive not seen any of the grocery stores I go to getting rid of self checkout lanes. 

 

[AxB]

Well, getting rid of fans is one way to stop the whole problem of the fans reacting the wrong way and booing the top face all the time.

Obviously booking the babyface in such a way that the fans actually want to cheer for them is another way to do that, but I think that ship has sailed. 

[mattdangerously]

10 hours ago, Super Ape said:

He announced his retirement to focus on being a streamer.

Well, he got suspended/banned by Twitch today, so he may want to Terry Funk that retirement. 

[Curt McGirt]

I wonder how much money WWE snagged off those PPP loans that were supposed to go to small businesses...

[nofuture]

8 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

I wonder how much money WWE snagged off those PPP loans that were supposed to go to small businesses...

Surprsingly, WWE didn't take any PPP loans.  Anthem/Impact were the only wrestling company to do so.

[Infinit]

2 hours ago, mattdangerously said:

Do you feel the same way about DX wearing blackface? 

I thought that skit was in poor taste. It was a bad decision for it to make the air. Was it a Russo idea? Or has it been told anywhere that the skit came from the DX members themselves?

[Curt McGirt]

Huh. Actually smart because it would probably put heat on Linda. 

[Octopus]

4 hours ago, Jiji said:

Watching the first Liger/Sano match and the Sumo Hall crowd is INTO THIS and the opening chain wrestling is crisp as hell. This is the match with the insane inside to outside suplex from the apron on Sano, followed by a barely in control tope suicida, and finished with Liger hitting a rolling senton from the top to the floor on a downed Sano. This... THIS is the Sano vs. Liger I remember and love. Just wild stuff with extra juice on everything. Is the story that Sano didn't respect the kid's show gimmick? He definitely seemed dismissive in the opening until Liger starts coming back in a big way. Fans thought the match was going to end on a countout because A) holy shit, Liger that was insane especially for '89, B) Sano's selling*, and C) it's the '80s and that's how so many big matches ended though by now they were moving away from that thankfully (hold that thought).

*He may have been legitimately concussed by that salvo from Liger. He gets back in the ring, stumbling all over the place, Liger whips him into the ropes, he stumbles and falls backwards into them. Holy shit. Liger smartly puts him in a dragon sleeper to give Sano time to recover. Oh yeah, looks like a real concussion or some injury because he's a step off for a bit here. Sano later goes for a plancha, hits Liger a bit but doesn't really get caught and smashes face first into the ground. That ain't going to help. He's got a trickle of blood coming down from his forehead after the half-failure of a dive too. He proceeds to GO TO THE TOP for a ridiculous negative air dropkick to the outside. He's hit his own crazy combination of dives now. This fits the theme of these two trading back and forth, pushing each other to their limits. The mat sequences at the start laid the groundwork, with them trading holds such as the Romero special, and fancy escapes and such. It culminates when a top rope dropkick from Sano meets a Liger counter dropkick. There's a meta element of raw excitement and emotion because I think everybody in the crowd realizes how fucked up Sano is from that earlier death combination from Liger. The ending is a bit flat for the crowd, as an avalanche backdrop suplex keeps both men down and it's a double knockout. HOWEVER, that plays into the story they told of tit for tat. I think this may be Liger's best. Gotta watch the sequels now but the emotion, craziness, and the story is just A++++++. 

I was at work so I pretended to “do receiving” while I had this on and it was excellent. I’m going to re watch the others and see where I’m at with the order. This might be hyperbole on my part, but I wonder if there’s a parallel between which Sano vs Liger match and which Hart vs Austin match is preferred. One has die hard supporters for its competitive wrestling aspects. The other is championed by many for its picture pleasing ending and blood. Am I overreaching? Maybe.

As for Top Five, I’ll wait to give a full answer. Your write up inspired me to have Liger be one of my August projects. I’m not as familiar with his NOAH work, so I’m probably most excited for those. 

I’m going to cheat and say Vs Sano as one match. I’ll go through them and tag you when I pick a favorite out of them.

When I got home from work I did some digging and saw he had a match with Negro Casas. Just finished that and I’m still pumped up from that. So for sheer excitement reasons I’ll include that for now.

The Great Sasuke 94 match I watched late last year and it held up for me. I remember liking the Otani 97 match quite a bit. I’ll also round it out with the 16 Kushida match being exciting to watch him still go. 

5 hours ago, Jiji said:

 Is there a comprehensive Liger comp out there that covers his entire career? I've been in a comp frame of mind lately. I know Will has a '89-'96 bad boy. 

The only one I can find is the Highspots 8-disc. IVP has a few, but I’ve never purchased anything from them before.

(Is Will Goodhelmet?) 

[HumanChessgame]

2 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Ive not seen any of the grocery stores I go to getting rid of self checkout lanes. 

 

Ever since covid hit, a lot of grocery stores around me have increased the amount of them available. They've got the floor decals marking 6' intervals in the lines and in most cases they're being cleaned regularly, but they're not going anywhere.

17 minutes ago, Infinit said:

I thought that skit was in poor taste. It was a bad decision for it to make the air. Was it a Russo idea? Or has it been told anywhere that the skit came from the DX members themselves?

In the NOD Table For 3 they brought the skit up and mentioned that the DX guys came to them beforehand to ask if they were ok with it and none of them had a problem. It's been a while since I've seen it and no longer have the network so I don't recall if they said whose idea it was.

Edited July 31, 2020 by HumanChessgame