JULY 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[Godfrey]

I agree with @NoFistsJustFlips, WWE has industrialized their product to the point where it often doesn't matter who the performer even is. Individual wrestlers do what they can within their limited scope but the overall product is assembly line wrestling. The number of times I see wrestlers start to go for a pin or a hold and then quickly readjust so they're properly camera facing takes me way out. But the brand is the draw, right?

Edited July 17, 2020 by Godfrey

[Curt McGirt]

"The brand is the draw". That is so fucking pathetic. "People down the street are making good food; our food is terrible but it has a good reputation and well recognized logo. They're gonna like us no matter how terrible we taste."

Yet it works for actual food operations so what do I know

Edited July 17, 2020 by Curt McGirt

[nofuture]

You've described every corporate fast food burger and pizza place.

[Death From Above]

The NFL also operates on a "all players are replaceable, people will always watch the NFL" model and to this point it keeps working.

[hammerva]

12 minutes ago, nofuture said:

You've described every corporate fast food burger and pizza place.

True but in that case the product is relatively the same.  I mean McDonalds have been the same except for 1 or 2 things for about 30 years. Except for the type of oil that was used KFC is basically the same in the last 20 years.  

The "brand" in terms of wrestling is changing every since time 

Edited July 17, 2020 by hammerva

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 hours ago, hammerva said:

 I mean McDonalds have been the same except for 1 or 2 things for about 30 years. 

Given that the McRib came back around 89-90, I feel like Undertaker is the McRib of wrestlers is an adequate metaphor.

[Ultimo Necro]

53 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Given that the McRib came back around 89-90, I feel like Undertaker is the McRib of wrestlers is an adequate metaphor.

Haha, 100%.  He’s not on the menu all year but when it shows up, you think “Do I really need a McRib?” you end up getting it and enjoying it.

Life comes at you fast, I didn’t check the board all day and come on to find out wrestlers seemingly can’t get ring time or weed from anyone... in Florida... in 2020... and now I’m taking about McRibs.

All this weed and McRib talk at this time on a Friday is going to do me no favors later on.

[odessasteps]

Given he comes around Mania time, he could also be the Shamrock Shake.

[matt925]

10 hours ago, Ziggy said:

I dont believe it was a reason they chose Wednesday, NXT being running on the Network I dont consider AEW running against them seeing as it isn't on tv. I could be wrong but I believe it had more to do with not running against on nights NFL games are televised and NBA games on TNT. Going up against NXT I dont believe was something put in to consideration.

Yeah you you have nba on tnt on Tuesday and Thursday and nfl on Monday. Wednesday was the day. 
 

Edit: Their preferred day was Tuesday because smackdown was leaving Tuesdays for Fridays, so you had a night cleared up with a couple million wrestling fans used to watching wrestling. They thought about it but there would have been too many weeks of moving the show around so that would have been worse. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by matt925

[odessasteps]

I'd think Turner made the final decision on the night, not Tony. 

[SorceressKnight]

@Matt D Honestly, if people think I'm mostly anti-fans, what you said is really the problem that my biggest issue is more than anything.

Once the meta-storyline of "WWE vs. The Fans" took hold, the real issue that's hurt the show is in place that we've entered a world where the storyline on TV no longer matters. The ability of writing in WWE or lack thereof is not even an issue anymore, because it just...doesn't matter, and once the actual writing of the show no longer matters, then nothing on the show can possibly matter. The only time WWE seemed to be able to adjust the new storyline for it was in Daniel Bryan vs. The Authority, just because they managed to redirect the Pipebomb from "CM Punk being angry he didn't have John Cena's Spot as the face of the company', and adjust it to a kayfabe-friendly "If you're the WWE Champion, that fact alone means that you're the Face of the WWE and you're the top star in the company", and that was killed when Bryan got injured and WWE made it clear "don't matter, still a B-Plus Player."

End result, we're in a level where it's impossible for WWE to matter because...well, nothing matters. The matches don't matter because whatever match happens, the other guy will win next week. The feuds don't matter because they don't have any reason to hate each other that matters. Even the titles don't really matter, because the 2012 Punk turn (and later the Becky Lynch/Charlotte Flair feud) made the plot line "Oh, you think you are THE STAR because you're champ? Make no mistake. You have A BELT. THIS PERSON is THE CHAMP. And even if you beat them? Tomorrow morning you will be you, they will be them, and that means they're STILL THE CHAMP.", and so nothing can possibly change.  People are either "haves" or "have-nots" in WWE right now. A Have-Not can win every match, hold the title for decades, and they'll still be seen as a Have-Not, and a Have can lose every match, and they'll still be seen as a Have.

How's it possible to fix WWE when nothing matters on the show?

 

[DMN]

On 7/14/2020 at 6:19 PM, Casey said:

I see nobody posted/posts at EWB besides me then, huh? It’s way better than the Grey Dog forums, which is the “official” home of talk about Ryland’s games now (used to be EWB before TEW came out).

Bruh.

I just rarely post here, and when I do it's usually about sports and not wrestling.

Edited July 17, 2020 by DMN

[twiztor]

WWE lost me 100% in like 2006 due to two major factors.

1) LOLCENAWINS. the storylines didn't matter. the character progression didn't matter. All that mattered was that Cena would prevail, again, no matter the odds. gag me.

2) ECW reboot. by this point, WWE put on one of my all time favorite wrestling events, ECW One Night Stand (2005). it was a massive success that led to a follow up the next year and relaunched as a brand in 2006. it was a dismal failure, as they actively found ways to undermine every single wrestler and "attitude" that the original ECW stood for.

what's ironic here is that i was never some Heyman ECW superfan. i had seen a few PPVs and the ECW on TNN show, but i never had access to their earlier years until later. Yet WWE still found a way to alienate me.

 

long story short (too late) WWE has done everything in their power to largely eliminate their Attitude Era audience while relying on them to pop a rating. Gee, i wonder why their ratings fell for years........

 

 

[SorceressKnight]

2 hours ago, DMN said:

Bruh.

I just rarely post here, and when I do it's usually about sports and not wrestling.

Ditto- even if this name doesn't "reflect" who I am there, I also was one of the EWB people. (Doesn't work because I long ignored him here, but still.

[SirSmUgly]

At least McDonald's gets your shitty sodium bomb of a burger to you in two minutes. The pro wrestling equivalent takes three hours on Monday to make your body seize up in discomfort and get the shits. 

[Spontaneous]

Bring back the mcdlt and the big n tasty. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Six String Orchestra

[Death From Above]

I'm a quarter pounder w/cheese guy. There's nothing there to fuck up. I'm not a fan of the mountain of shredded lettuce on the Big Mac.

[Octopus]

14 hours ago, Matt D said:

@The Natural posting some memories of Punk/Cena made me think of something.

The big narrative in the WWF in the 80s was Hogan vs Monsters. In the late 90s, it was Austin vs McMahon and WCW vs WWF with the idea anything could happen. I think in the 2010s, it was WWE vs the Fans, one of the last big conflicts people could get behind. It was about whether or not they'd really change their plans and make main eventers out of Punk/Bryan. We'd seen Benoit/Guerrero/Rey in the 00s but the pushback there in each case was obvious, punctuated with Rey's title run. For the most part, the fans won. That was pretty much evident in how the Roman stuff went and the long-run push of Rollins as a top guy. He's the sort of person 2013 fans who were rebelling against the product would want on top, a ROH alum workrate guy. 

That last conflict, however, was pure meta. It wasn't about anything in a narrative. The narrative was the behind-the-scenes workings of the company against the fans. It wasn't some sort of ECW rallying where it was one company and its fans as underdogs against other companies. It was the fans AGAINST the company itself. Not against some corporate overlord (though that was personified in the form of the Authority) but really against the WWE. After you go to that, it seems very hard to come back to some fictional narrative for people to get behind. What sort of fictional feud with Drew Macintyre could be compelling. How can people not just think of it again as "are they really going to book it this way or that way?" as the main narrative thrust instead of what's being presented on screen.

WWE vs AEW seems like it could be vaguely compelling but it's such a niche audience for both right now. 

I think their only real hope is to engage a new generation of fans with different interests. Are the younger AEW fans into the storytelling or are they more into the progressive/throwback hybrid attitude of the promotion? 

Either/ Or by Soren Octopusgaard

Hey  @Matt D, I am Octor Pusmita. I was stumbling through this forum and I came across your mention of WWE vs the Fans. Thinking on your post, it really intrigued me. I was deep in thought on it all day. I need to keep my mind busy and active as I work. I don't listen to earbuds as I miss when people call me. So I spend my day thinking as I clean houses. Today's task? Cleaning out this Danish attic. Long story, used to be owned by a judge. While going through an old escritoire desk, I happened to stumble on these old letters. Two individuals writing back and forth happened to be debating about exactly what you were pondering. So fascinated by this, I just have to type this all out for you. Sadly, the first author’s name is smudged out, so we’ll call him “O.” Hope you enjoy.

 

Quote

 

EITHER -The Aesthetic, by O

 

WWE generally finds their answer when they can successfully tap into, for lack of a better term, American Culture. Hogan vs Monsters felt like it came from the period it came from. Their answer to losing ratings to WCW was mimicking what was scene in pop culture in the 90’s. Whenever you do this you can get trash ideas but with the right talent can be magic. The meta storytelling of a company acknowledging the flaws of failing to give the people what they want parallel to the fictional universe’s narrative was an inventive way to get a Cena vs Punk or a rise of Daniel Bryan a special wink. The use of that meta storytelling was a representation of what was being done at the time. Maybe not literally because WWE is live athletic theater, but meta comedies was a big thing with shows like 30 Rock, Community, Rick and Morty, Family Guy, etc. WWE was finding success leaning into themselves with Company vs Fans. It made sense because the universe already involved the “Evil Owners” in the McMahons. The company’s figurehead went from Mr Burns  blocking out the sun to Jack Donaghy ironically forcing product integration against the standards of the show. You will like Cena and you won’t like Daniel Bryan, meta reverse psychology. 

So how do you regain the trust of the fans after being meta-evil? That’s a tall order, but by looking into the world right now. One thing to tap into is the current movement for desired Systematic Change. That’s the heart of of both political sides grievances. A demand for police reform, attempting to challenge systemic racism on the left and the previous attempt to “drain the swamp” on the right. A feeling that nearly everyone shares but is disagreeing on the cause, the way things are running is not working. If the WWE can figure out a way to distance themselves from WWE vs the Fans it will have to come from actual change or the mere appearance and fan acceptance of it. The WWE can't be branded on you'll get what you want eventually but we wont be happy about it. A deep rooted change of the company being looked at as provided the entertainment the fans actually want. WWE & the Fans.

Now there already has been attempts at the appearance of this already. The McMahon family literally were in the ring saying they are now listening to the fans and will do better. Last year? One of their immediate answers which I feel maybe wasn’t exactly needed was getting rid of GM roles, which honestly Paige was doing fine. Doing so they went back to the well and had more McMahons for a bit and having Stone Cold call the WWE Universe family. Ok, cool uncle.  This of course I'm citing from some time ago, and I can't tell you if they are as openly present in the product currently. Looking at the results of last Raw it seems like a different show than the one I had to quit watching. Maybe they've turned around? Maybe I'll go back? I'll get to that.

A moment that work, leaning a bit towards meta, was Kofimania. The most emotionally captivating storyline in recent years for me. Again you have Evil Company but in a dismissive tone instead of a cartoonish caricature. Vince likes silly midcarder Kofi, not as a top guy representing the company. It’s hard not to see the parallels of the time’s BLM rise with Kofi being denied an equal opportunity to be given a shot to earn a championship match. He is given an unfair disadvantage to give the opportunity to prove himself and his friends even have to suffer to raise Kofi up. Even, in storyline, being replaced by Kevin Owens who is portrayed as a father just trying to feed his family. Success for WWE is having an ability to weave in and out modern social waves into compelling stories. I was in awe of Kofi’s victory and had friends that were lapsed fans that were touched and kept updated on the product for a few episodes after Wrestlemania.

A change they have successfully made was how women are presented on the show. I’ve left the Network and don’t plan on watching weekly shows, but I keep looking back solely because of the Women’s division. Becky’s rise was awesome, Asuka is one of my favorite wrestlers, Sasha Banks and Bailey are killing it right now, and there are so many badasses right now that can legitimately main event a show. Improved representation of women in media is something that should have happened long ago but is now happening. To quote Trudeau when asked why he had equal female to male cabinet members, “because it’s 2015.”

A change that is ultimately most desired but not entirely vocalized by the fans is the ability to present coherent storylines that don’t embarrass or insult us as fans. Sasha & Bailey is one of the most interesting builds in wrestling right now, but I can’t fully buy into because they’ve burned me so many times before. Some of us on here don’t like Seth Rollins, but him going over Brock was needed and the fans loved it. After he won there was such an odd change in character that he just came off dweeby and was rejected. The whole Fiend fiasco was embarrassing. Roman Reigns is pretty cool, but the way they tried pushing his story of not being able to beat Brock was trash and made people literally boo him. Naomi vs Mandy was just abandoned and forgotten about. Drake Maverick gave a compelling promo to watch 205 Live and then peed his pants on the main brand. Kevin Owens pretending to be Stone Cold was cool but trying to make him sympathetic by not being able to pay fines was trash. I sometimes assume maybe we fans are now just jaded, but I’ve mentioned earlier how they’ve had recent angles that blew everyone away. Maybe the Systematic Change they need is merely not butchering stories. Even when people are not watching, they eventually hear what’s going on. Build up good will by not producing garbage, they have more than enough talent. 

But that't the heart of the issue. I don't watch because they've proven they can't be trusted. With every improvement that the WWE have made, there is a reason I don't want to watch. The roster is insanely talented. Yet how they are handled can be so frustrating. I assume as of right now, WWE is more entertaining than it was a few months ago when I had to walk away. I just don't trust them enough to be invested. As a Minnesota sports fan I'll probably eventually buy again into the hype, only to be heartbroken again. If they can change that I perceive they won't inevitably disappoint me, then well...they won't disappoint me? The biggest change needed I guess is not to disappoint. Which says a lot about the system involved itself. 

Quote

 

OR - Ethics, by Judge Octohelm

 

McDonalds is great. I am tired and want to eat a Filet-O-Fish and have a large pop for cheap. The rising cost irritates me, but the reliability of that soothing man-made fish byproduct going down my throat, lubed by coarse tartar sauce, gives me the calming effect of an ability to wake up in the morning. People will come and go, but they’ll always return to the forefather approved Golden Arches. 

The unhappiness of wrestling today is understandable, but the changes should happen inwardly, not through change of product. Instead of demands of improvement, we should do what was done by fans wiser than us, marry the product. Were we happy when Hogan pulled Sid out of the ring? No, but it gave us Flair winning the title. Were we happy about Daniel Bryan being squashed by Shamus? No, but it lead to Wrestlemania 30. Your disappointment is a part of life. Accept it and Vince has bigger plans down the road. 

The equilibrium of what we want and what we get is the development of Personality as a fan. By how we respond to the unhappy moments (and eventual rewards) on forums is the true essence of you as a person. The reason you enjoyed Kofimania was because he lost at Elimination Chamber. If he was given title opportunities in the past, why would Kofimania matter? The Divine wisdom of Vince is often confusing, but just remember, against Vince we are always wrong. Sin is inevitable and leads to great moments on forums of questioning booking. Seth getting DQed in a HIAC was stupid and funny. But now Seth is cooler poking Rey in the eye. It lead to whatshisface being his sidekick or whatever.

WWE is able to pivot the subconscious of their booking and they always have in the past. Hogan to Cartoon to Attitude to Invasion to Ruthless Aggression to PG to Now to the Future, Vince has had his finger on the pulse of the world and provided us more than enough of what we need, a Big Mac with a side of fries.

Vince, bless us. Bless us the way you blessed Mustafa Ali by giving him advice of always fighting under. Bless us like you blessed AJ Styles by advising him to a pitbull. Give us the grit you gave AJ. Give us that heat! Bless us, Vince. Bless us!

Vince will win in the end. All attempts to challenge are futile. Pandemic wrestling is boring? AEW puts wrestlers on the sides and creates fan noise and creates storylines from it. How can Vince top that? PLEXIGLASS. Better sound, looks cooler, maybe safer. Who knows? Vince will always win. He ate the territories, sucked the blood out of ECW, outlasted WCW, and casually stepped on TNA’s throat while yawning until they changed their stupid name. If you want to watch Wrestling that will win and has always won, watch WWE. Be a winner. Be a Vince.

Spoiler

I was bored so I thought I'd respond as a parody of Kierkegaard's Either/ Or. Maybe I'll do Concept of Anxiety next and switch a word to have Octopus in it. Not a full representation, I know. Just fun.

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by OctopusCinema

[Casey]

What the fuck did I just read.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I actually think the Covid era shows have been quite a bit better than the shit they were putting out there in the months prior.  I'm not saying it's great television or anything but for me the empty arenas haven't been a big issue now that I'm used to them.  

Whenever fans can come back WWE badly needs to reset..  I mean some drastic changes. 

[BrianS81177]

2 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I actually think the Covid era shows have been quite a bit better than the shit they were putting out there in the months prior.  I'm not saying it's great television or anything but for me the empty arenas haven't been a big issue now that I'm used to them.  

Whenever fans can come back WWE badly needs to reset..  I mean some drastic changes. 

You say "drastic changes", they hear "get Shane, Stephanie and Hunter back on tv ASAP"

[SorceressKnight]

Even going further into the meta-aspect of modern day WWE, it recognizes a bigger problem: Much like the seeds of WCW's downfall were planted during the NWO and Hogan's run, some of WCW's greatest moments, the seeds of the problem with WWE right now were planted in the Attitude Era. 

The very meta-angle is the same as why top stars get turned against, and how it even went back to Cena and can be traced back to the Austin/McMahon feud. If WWE has made it a plot point as far back as Austin/McMahon that "The McMahon family are evil, and any top star they say is the right choice to be the top star is not to be trusted", how the hell are WWE supposed to get people behind the new era of top stars? At WWE's peak, the show was built around telling the audience to reject the corporate choice, and now everyone they give to the fans are so obviously corporate choices that they already have three strikes against them before they enter the batter's box. Worse yet, as we speak AEW's riding on the wave of "the very nature of WWE is inherently corporate, and just supporting anyone in WWE- even your favorite- is supporting the corporate choice." 

[Ryan]

5 hours ago, Casey said:

What the fuck did I just read.

A college essay entrance test for WWE University?

[AxB]

Is AEW planning an angle for November, where Demo God Chris Jericho gets upset that he himself is no longer in the 18-49 demographic any more and therefore his opinions aren't as valuable?

I was thinking about this earlier. If the most loyal WWE fans are all over 50, that means that these aren't the people who were under 10 year old Hulkamaniac kids in the mid-late 80s, and late teen/ early 20s fans in the Monday Night Wars/ Attitude era. That generation is still early to mid 40s. The most loyal WWE fans were already teens or young adults during Hulkamania, and in their 30s when it was all DX Suck It. So for basically their entire wrestling fandom, the biggest company (their favourite company) has been targeting an audience 10+ years younger than them. If WWE wants to please the audience it actually has, Set Rollins should be trying harder to wrestle like Bob Backlund used to.

[Infinit]

NOAH Destiny featuring Kobashi vs Kensuke was 15(!) years ago today.