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Wrestlers are trash "Allegedly"

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4 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

If this dragnet expands from rape to domestic violence, then that'll be another strike on Tyson (Tyson has admitted punching Robin Givens), and a strike on Stone Cold Steve Austin (Debra).

Tyson's reputation makeover is pretty remarkable in the scheme of things. It's sort of the power of people seeing Tyson as being victimized financially by Don King and also the power of belief. Meaning there's probably some entertainment industry people who don't mind hanging out with Mike Tyson because he's Mike Tyson.

The entertainment field is a weird one, since we get stuff like Ice Cube as a family movie star that occasionally goes off on Twitter praising Louis Farrakhan (which Cube was doing in the early 90s as well).. basically you don't lose work if you're an asshole with some sort of talent that isn't in obvious legal trouble at the moment.

If praising Louis Farrakhan and the late Khalid Muhammad in the early 90s didn't get you in hot water, I doubt it will now considering Farrakhan hasn't been in the public spotlight as much and in several ways spent time rebranding his own self. I mean some leftist political adjacent African-Americans were made to denounce Farrakhan like Tamika Mallory when she was part of the Women's March and she didn't. It didn't really have a big effect other than she left that organization. Then, most recently she showed up and gave a pretty powerful speech on the eve of the George Floyd demonstrations/protests that went viral. So the whole thing of following Farrakhan will get you cancelled doesn't work in 2020 as it did 30 years ago for anyone not connected to the hip-hop community. At what...almost 90 years of age? You're not really going to have the ear of the people like that anymore. At best, he can get the ear of people who can go on and currently be thought leaders within the African-American community. In the late 80s to mid 90s, he was standing shoulder to shoulder with the artists as equals. He cannot really do that anymore.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

If you're going to say AEW needs to cut ties with Mike Tyson, then the wrestling industry needs to cast out Randy Orton, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Ric Flair, and likely Edge as well.

Edge? For the affair with Lita?

Edited by The Natural

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32 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

If you're going to say AEW needs to cut ties with Mike Tyson, then the wrestling industry needs to cast out Randy Orton, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Ric Flair, and likely Edge as well.

Re: Edge. Iirc there seemed to be some manipulative aspects to his dealings with Lita.

I think AEW would like to hold themselves to a higher standard than WWE, though I know they would work with most of those guys given half a chance.

It would be nice to live in a world where Austin and Orton could speak to their previous behaviour, as they appear to be in a different place now and I suspect they greatly regret these things.

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if your going to start adding wrestlers who had affairs to this list they wont be any left and all past would be wiped out too!

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Posted (edited)

Look, I'm not going to begrudge people who have a problem with or criticize AEW for having a business relationship with Tyson. However, if we're going to take this total, 100% moral no tolerance policy about Tyson, then there a lot of guys we all still love and acknowledge in the business, who are still active in the business post-retirement, that should also be made persona non-grata.

Undeniably, the things Orton was doing in his 20s were pretty horrible. And the documented things are just what we know about. Steve Austin was a monster who beat his wife. Ric Flair is accused of sexually assaulting a woman on a plane. The issue with Flair is still one of those underground stories because it was settled out of court and it gets lumped in with all the other insanity of the Plane Ride From Hell. 

In the world of boxing, look at Floyd Mayweather. He was welcomed back with open arms.

I don't think the Tyson thing is a true test of AEW's moral superiority over WWE. Honestly, I don't think AEW has truly been tested on this yet. That probably remains to be seen. 

Edited by TheVileOne

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1 hour ago, Cobra Commander said:

 

The entertainment field is a weird one, since we get stuff like Ice Cube as a family movie star that occasionally goes off on Twitter praising Louis Farrakhan (which Cube was doing in the early 90s as well).. basically you don't lose work if you're an asshole with some sort of talent that isn't in obvious legal trouble at the moment.

What's the issue with him praising Louis Farrakhan? I have my gripes about the fact that he may have had a hand in the assassination of Malcolm x  but alot of the things Louis Farrakhan has been pointing out for decades about racial injustices have fallen on deaf ears for decades up until recently. I dont think Ice Cube is a bad person or anyone for bringing up racial injustices and alot of the other things he brings up on twitter. As successful he's been in Hollywood, in sure he's been through alot as a black man in Hollywood and he's been scandal free alot these years, if he's not a good guy in Hollywood,  who is?

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

What's the issue with him praising Louis Farrakhan? I have my gripes about the fact that he may have had a hand in the assassination of Malcolm x  but alot of the things Louis Farrakhan has been pointing out for decades about racial injustices have fallen on deaf ears for decades up until recently. I dont think Ice Cube is a bad person or anyone for bringing up racial injustices and alot of the other things he brings up on twitter. As successful he's been in Hollywood, in sure he's been through alot as a black man in Hollywood and he's been scandal free alot these years, if he's not a good guy in Hollywood,  who is?

Out of all the things Farrakhan got vilified for during the height of his popularity, the antisemitism thing is the one that stuck way after his popularity died down. That's always going to make him a lightning rod for controversy even though in recent years, he tried to clean it up. However, he either made it worse through those statements or people just ain't buying it. So he's taking that one to his grave. The recent connection with Cube that might may problematic is Cube carrying on with those conspiracy theories (and I don't know what the hell he tweeted but heard bits and pieces to be fair) is that Cube already was saying shit in his lyrics ("You let a Jew break up my crew") that might set off the antisemitic alarm. What helped Cube out originally is Jerry Heller was proven to be a certified piece of shit. Does it excuse the lyrics? YMMV. What insulates Ice Cube is the same thing that insulates a guy like Snoop Dogg w/ the Gayle King "dog haired bitch" ordeal: He didn't start out in the Osmonds and then become a "gangsta" rapper. That's what everyone knew him as prior to Are We There Yet? and all this other shit. Though with Snoop, you gotta put yourself on a self-imposed timeout after that even though I didn't agree with how Gayle handled the Lisa Leslie interview. You can still go about shit the absolutely wrong way. And another part of that is black celebrity (hell you can argue celebrity in general) isn't as powerful as it once was. Black people weren't exactly agreeing T.I. saying ridiculously shit like Atlanta (a city with extremely high income inequality) is Wakanda (yes, a fictional comic book setting). He got absolutely clowned hard for that by 85% of black people on Twitter. In that same vain, no one expects 50+ year old Ice Cube to be that in tune with what's going on and say all the right things because it's highly likely he won't.

Edited by Elsalvajeloco
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7 hours ago, AxB said:

Considering how WWE likes to rewrite history, I can't wait to hear next year's version of the early days of NXT UK. How Pete Dunne formed a group called British Strong Style consisted solely of himself, and entered a 16 man tournament in which he and Mark Andrews were the only entrants.

To be fair, Dan Moloney has had Progress on blast for about two days straight and has very vocally had the backs of the victims, so as long as nothing comes out showing him to be a hypocrite about it , he appears to be one of the good ones

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, RunningFromAmerica said:

Mike Tyson is an interesting case. I don't think there's another obvious example of someone convicted of rape really being rehabilitated in terms of remaining a celebrity. Rightly or wrongly, a lot of people were never really convinced of his guilt - but nonetheless he is a convicted rapist and I'm not sure AEW can really feature him again if they were ever planning to.

 

To be fair, he did his time, and then some, and a lot of folks do question the guilt, and it's been 20 years and he seems to have changed.  

 

If you never offer chances to rehabilitate, the logical course of action for folks who are accused of terrible things is to deny, gaslight, and double down even more.   That's not something that should be rewarded either.  You also make that course of action more popular, as enough folks get cancelled/wrongfully accused that you'd get a backlash.  Folks will end up sympathizing with the accused not the accusers.

 

There's more to fixing the problem than just believing accusers and cancelling folks.  Punishment (both legal and reputation) has to be both fair and in some cases a path to redemption needs to be earnable.

 

Some folks can't be forgiven, others can, and unfortunately- talent also plays a role.  TJP and Ospreay are pretty equivalent overall, but TJP gets much less of a pass for his actions than Ospreay does because TJP isn't as good as Ospreay in ring.


Also, people have different thresholds.  I knew someone who was rabidly anti-Kenny Omega because of the Chasyn Rance situation, thinking he was 100% pro-pedo because of it.   You won't consider every threshold rational. 

 

BTW this isn't me saying folks should be forgiven easily.  I think Chase , unless evidence shows the accusations are untrue, should be fired, and Ospreay probably deserves a heavy punishment as well (but one that shouldn't end his career- he's been a stupid shithead, not a criminal- Ospreay should get something similar to what Taichi got 10 years ago), but you have to have things balanced out in perspective.

 

 

 

Edited by alstein

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Reading through this whole thread and it's genuinely horrific. I have nothing to add to what's gone on. I have noticed though, that (at least here in Ireland) this has spread beyond wrestling and has empowered a lot of women to speak up against men in other fields utilising a lot of the same tools. I believe one Irish comedian and club promoter was responding in a supportive manner to some of the victims speaking out about wrestling which in turn was the spark that lit the fire in some of his victims and encourages them to speak out against him. This is now empowering women from all fields of the arts to tell their stories too and its incredibly raw and sad and horrific but also kinda hopeful. 

Defamation laws in Ireland are notoriously stacked in favour of the powerful and the abusers (hence a certain MMA fighters name is never mentioned in stories relating to him here but will be covered in the NY Times) so I'm in awe at the bravery of these women. 

Not sure exactly what I'm saying other than I'm glad to see something genuinely awful transforming into something positive and I really hope these women/people can get some solace and level of healing from being heard. That and fuck anyone who thinks abusing positions of power is acceptable. 

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There were a few people in wrestling who did that, talked about how they were supporting the speaking out movement one minute and getting exposed for predatory behaviour the next. Jack Sexsmith being one of the more obvious. Riptide pulled all of their shows off streaming platforms to re-edit them so no predators featured, which is tricky considering Sexsmith was their top babyface for over a year, and Jimmy Havoc was a main event guy there as well. There have also been a bunch of fans speaking up for random wrestlers who haven't been named, saying "I knew they were good people", and then stories do come out about them. The only wrestler I've seen other wrestlers publically state stood against the sleaziness and wouldn't let it happen is Rampage Brown. Lots of people who left Ligero's school went to Rampage's, so they have a point of comparison.

The stories about the whole Knight family are pretty horrifying. 

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I feel like the entire Tyson conversation is missing the biggest factor of why he was "forgiven."  The entire appeal of Mike Tyson is that he was a savage.  Him going to jail for rape kind of just reinforced that belief and therefore his appeal.  

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On 6/19/2020 at 12:33 PM, caley said:

He was concerned about the morality of the police force and became a wrestler?!

Thats like quitting the mafia to go work for a drug cartel!

By all accounts Chicago PD IS exactly like working for a drug cartel.

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They would be on pretty even footing when it came to arsenals. The cops probably have more firepower though.

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I'm probably going to get on someone's shit list for this, but I really disagree with all of the shit that is talked about AEW bringing in Tyson. We talk so much about how people who commit a crime and do their time in prison don't get a fair shake when they actually reform themselves and the system really just puts them on a treadmill to go back into prison.

Tyson is an example of someone who committed a crime, went to prison for it, and had a long road to reform. I'm that process he's had to come to terms with mental illness and has been open about how he fucked up and how drugs were part of that. Unless I'm missing something, he's kept himself out of trouble, lost a lot of his money, shown himself to be a family man, mourned the loss of his daughter, and so on.

You don't have to forget the man's crimes, but he did the time and reformed. Whoever he is now isn't the same person he was then.

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1 hour ago, AxB said:

The only wrestler I've seen other wrestlers publically state stood against the sleaziness and wouldn't let it happen is Rampage Brown. Lots of people who left Ligero's school went to Rampage's, so they have a point of comparison.

Eddie Kingston - at least on this side of the Ocean

He offered an apology to the women on shows he worked (and those he is close friends with) for not being aware/not doing more to prevent things which in turn a lot of them telling Eddie that he had done more than his fair share to prevent things and that there was a reason so many people turned to him for guidance in the locker room

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i dont know how to attach tweets to my post.... but visit Intwresleague   they say that they had to stop booking pollyanna due to ospreay despite him denying blackballing her!  yet he kept booking his friend who was the suppose rapist.

ospreay going to lose alot of support here with people, i dont think stop him in japan but in UK scene it will! you wonder if any more promotions will speak out

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Chicago PD probably torture(d?) more people than killing them outright vs. cartels. What a thing to be known for. 

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7 minutes ago, Craig H said:

I'm probably going to get on someone's shit list for this, but I really disagree with all of the shit that is talked about AEW bringing in Tyson. We talk so much about how people who commit a crime and do their time in prison don't get a fair shake when they actually reform themselves and the system really just puts them on a treadmill to go back into prison.

Tyson is an example of someone who committed a crime, went to prison for it, and had a long road to reform. I'm that process he's had to come to terms with mental illness and has been open about how he fucked up and how drugs were part of that. Unless I'm missing something, he's kept himself out of trouble, lost a lot of his money, shown himself to be a family man, mourned the loss of his daughter, and so on.

You don't have to forget the man's crimes, but he did the time and reformed. Whoever he is now isn't the same person he was then.

I wasn't really expressing a strong normative opinion on Tyson, I agree that rapists have to be allowed to do their time and move on - indeed in the UK, we had Ched Evans being blocked from playing soccer and in the end went to appeal and got himself acquitted quite controversially - if he'd just been allowed to play, he probably wouldn't have appealed. But tbh, he still was more or less cancelled.

So the question becomes how does someone who isn't convicted of a crime reform become reformed, and potentially allowed to wrestle again.

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These complaints and the fallout is a microcosm of a lot of society's ills these days. The patriarchal/old boys club system that has protected those that commit misconduct, whether you are a cop, priest, Hollywood director, politician or wrestler needs to be burned to the ground. And something better has to be built from the ashes.

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4 minutes ago, mikeoldmac said:

i dont know how to attach tweets to my post....

In theory the way it should work is to just take the link and c&p into the post.

The board will covert automatically  (like so)

 

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4 minutes ago, mikeoldmac said:

ospreay going to lose alot of support here with people, i dont think stop him in japan but in UK scene it will! you wonder if any more promotions will speak out

There's always the chance that since Bushiroad owns both Stardom and New Japan and with Hana Kimura's death that they won't try to hide and bury what Ospreay did like some other Japanese companies might do.

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thank you i didnt have a clue and f will ospreay entertaining to watch but a horrid human

1 minute ago, RIPPA said:

In theory the way it should work is to just take the link and c&p into the post.

The board will covert automatically  (like so)

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I typed up a couple of paragraphs and deleted it by accident. Woof. I should know better than to type on the website instead of notes.

The blurred lines of forgiveness and forget   of public opinion comes more from Sophist tradition than that of clear cut across the board logic. Good PR that know how to sway people (whether it is address and reform, deny, or simply ignore) is so important for a celebrity/ athlete. Tyson was convicted and Kobe settled. Kobe lost his McDonald’s sponsorship but in the end is still a legend. @supremebve points out that this fit Tyson’s perceived character. Add on top of that that he was in the first Hangover movie and people now look at him as a funny character. Something that wasn’t given to Mel Gipson who tried to win over people by being in Hangover 2 but was shot down by Galifianakis. Would we look at Gibson differently if he made everyone laugh and was accepted by his peers? I don’t know. Kevin Spacey butchered his response to allegations and has never been forgiven. 

Ramble over.

EDIT: I feel this is overly simplistic and lacks nuance, but at a base level it’s the best way I can hit at how similar situations can have different outcomes of public opinion. 

Edited by OctopusCinema

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