Niners Fan in CT Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 16 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: Kobe also did a lot of good things. Charity, pushing forward women's basketball, etc. But he raped a young woman in a hotel in Colorado. O.J. Simpson killed a couple people. The jury got it wrong, the trial was a mess.. but he clearly killed those people. He got away with murder. We saw all the evidence, we saw it all laid out in front of us, it's clear as day. I can't say the same about Kobe, I can say "he might have raped that woman" but I can't say he definitely did it like I can say O.J. killed some people. I'm fine with your view on it, I can't say Kobe did it or didn't. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Does anyone here know Will Ospreay? Can someone at least advise him to hire a decent PR or crisis manager? At the very least, he needs someone to read over all of his tweets and statements before he puts them out at this point. What he did yesterday was not good for him at all. Not saying his career is over anything yet, but he's definitely not in a good place right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zendragon Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Joey Ryan's response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StretchMediatedHypertrophy Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said: All I'm saying is that calling out random names on Twitter is not the answer. The courts get it wrong but what else is there, we don't have a better system right now. The problem is that what you are de facto saying is that actual victims shouldn't be able to speak out, or at least that it's wrong for them to do so. Edited June 21, 2020 by RunningFromAmerica 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 34 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said: O.J. Simpson killed a couple people. The jury got it wrong, the trial was a mess.. but he clearly killed those people. He got away with murder. We saw all the evidence, we saw it all laid out in front of us, it's clear as day. I can't say the same about Kobe, I can say "he might have raped that woman" but I can't say he definitely did it like I can say O.J. killed some people. I'm fine with your view on it, I can't say Kobe did it or didn't. Quote Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter. That reads an awful lot like him saying "I raped her" to me 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zendragon Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 One thing about redemption, doing your debit to society ect. in regards to Kobe, Tyson, ect. is that some people feel that rape, sexual assault, child abuse are things that you don't get to come back from. You shouldn't get to be treated like a star after something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) Ric Flair is a perpetrator of sexual assault going by past allegations. Everyone still worships him, and he came back from it. People write and talk about the plane ride from hell, but they don't really bring up what Flair did as sexual assault, even though going by the allegations, what he did was clearly sexual assault. Edited June 21, 2020 by TheVileOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archibald Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Casey said: Bushiroad employs Chase Owens, who is far more of a problem than Will Ospreay, but both need to go ASAP. One is a paedophile, and the other is an enabler for a rapist and drove a woman out of the industry because she spoke out. I like Bea Priestly as a worker, but she's not any better than Will. At the very least she's a bully of the highest caliber. I could see them getting rid of Owens, but Ospreay is going nowhere unless something worse is revealed about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Elsalvajeloco Posted June 21, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) And the last several posts are why I dared not enter said Kobe thread when these events occurred in January. That, and I was still in a fog for a few days. As a poster here, I try to stay out of shit like this just to not piss off RIPPA, Dolfan, and jae among others. I still have my good and bad days. And as someone here, I try my best to not have certain bias. There are specific things I do want to agree with, but my skin color and more importantly the lineage of my race makes it extremely complex. It's extremely difficult for me as an African-American man to bring up a lot of these people (namely African-American gentlemen) because I try so diligently to not reinforce the stereotype of the brutal, serial mongrel rapist African-American man that goes back all the way to Reconstruction (even before D.W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation). So for me, trying to keep the discussion above the belt (or above board) is my purpose. Now how it turns out is entirely different because I'm definitely not the only person here with opinions. And the reason I brought up the Gayle thing originally is because I did believe there was a hidden agenda there. However, I don't think this place is the place for those anecdotes (what might be construed as gossip or hearsay anyway) especially when I doubt many people would have the grounding or anchoring to understand what is meant by it. Moreover, on the heels of the Ari Shaffir thing months back, I knew we were heading down a pretty ugly path. On here, I just forged ahead and didn't even go near that thread for fear of getting what many might see as irrationally angry. I think a lot of shit that should roll off my back because there may be legit evidence (that even I can agree with) otherwise bothers me because I do spend too much time online reading shit. Not only do I have to deal with the White/Everybody else vs. black but the black female vs. black male gender war, black LGBTQ+ vs. Cis black male, intersectional crowd vs. black men, black immigrant (first and second gen) vs. African-Americans, BMAT (black men are trash)/y'all n***** deserve to get shot by the police crowd vs. black men, etc. It's a whole lot of shit to unpack so I do spend a lot of time here to get away from that shit. It's fucking rough otherwise. So when all the names get brought up (whether it's Cosby, Kobe, Tyson, or anyone you can name), I feel I almost have to automatically disqualify myself. Part of that is I've already had too many run-ins on here that got super ugly whether it's MADCAP saying black people should just be happy with their paychecks in one of the Oscar threads from years back or Mike Naimark (who I don't believe has been here for quite awhile) saying that Jack Johnson is really the one who drew the color line in boxing. That type of shit sets me the fuck off. I come from a background that doesn't allow me to handle it pleasantly. Quick story time: Several years ago when I was in junior high school (Cassie Pennington Junior High School which I'm sure is named something else now), I had this teacher named Mr. McAdory who was my Mississippi Studies teacher as well as our vice principal. Think Uncle Phil from Fresh Prince of Bel-Air but more heavy set and with a little lighter complexion. Well, he told us a story in the middle of class one day that still resonates with me today and I will never forget. Years prior, as the coach for the school's baseball team, he was at practice one day with the team in the middle of summer in hot ass Mississippi heat. Around the baseball field, there was this hill that kinda overlooks it. On this hill, people usually come by to sell stuff whether it's snow cones, tamales, or fruit. Apparently, there was this older white guy who was on the hill selling watermelons. No one was tripping on the racial connotation of him being white selling watermelon. No one was really paying attention to that aspect. That turned out not to be the issue. Mr. McAdory took a closer look at this fellow, kinda recognized him, and then fully recognized him. Then, without telling his team anything, he left the field, went up on the hill, and told the guy not to come back anymore. He came back, didn't say anything to the team, and practice went on without further incident. Some days later, IIRC some of the members of the baseball team were in his class. After calling roll, just like he did with us when he told us the whole story, he started talking about when he was younger in 1950s/60s Mississippi near Money, Mississippi, riding his bicycle, and having to come inside when the street lights went on because of the thought some drunk white guy was going to stumble out of a bar and lynch you. We had no idea where he was going with this story until he told us the conclusion like he told his students back when this incident occurred. The guy who was out there selling watermelon and was told never to come back again was one of the guys who got off for brutally disfiguring and killing Emmett Till in 1955. I'm not sure if it was the guy who was married to Carolyn Bryant (who BTW is related to one of MS's former Lt. governors Phil Bryant) or one of the other guys, but either way Mr. McAdory knew who the fuck he was. Plus, the guy knew why he could never to come back again to that particular baseball field. That shit struck a chord with me. I was told this story at the same age as Emmett Till when he was murdered decades prior. Every year of high school, I would go on and look at the graphic pictures of what happened to him whether it was in Eyes on the Prize (the version with Malcolm-Jamal Warner narrating) or some other documentary in school. Some years later, when I first got on internet message boards (this particularly one may as well been called Stormfront.org but with wrestling fans), I remember talking about Emmett Till for whatever reason and then some white woman who was one of the frequent posters there said "Oh maybe he deserved that for whistling". It just fucking enraged me to no end. A few years ago when Carolyn Bryant admitted she made up the whole story, people who kinda knew the story (i.e. people who weren't from Mississippi) saw it as some type of vindication. Every black person who grew up in Mississippi (and to be fair, Chicago since that's where the Till family moved to) knew what was up. We didn't need any fucking more proof. And sadly, this is where the alliance ends between different categories of black people. We can all agree what happened to Emmett Till was extremely, extremely fucked up. However, in many cases, there is this attitude in social media and other platforms built off up centuries old white stereotypes that you other n***** deserve it. A few years ago, some women went on The Breakfast Club talking about how black men are the leading cause of death among black women (I believe it was heart disease or something...maybe hypertension). None of what they were saying was based in fact. In that way, these platforms are way for people to just vent now with no consequences (hell, we saw this with the ExposeWrestling twitter just a day or so ago). People always throw around the term toxic, but refuse to put that label on themselves. So yes, I would like to have this beautiful back-and-forth conversation about these complexities especially since most of the discourse has been rather peaceful all things considered. However, it's extremely tough for me to discuss these things when the feeling for a lot of people STILL is little black boys (specifically African-American) come out of the crib with the innate belief/mindset/behavior that you have to abuse, molest, rape, and kill others and that we're basically sub-human. And if you don't cut them down (through death or imprisonment) at a certain age, you got a fucking menace to society on your hands. For those reasons alone, I have to abstain from some of these discussions. Edited June 21, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco 21 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MavsFan77 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Casey said: Well I imagine that because Gallagher is a rapist, and so is Riddle, but one is fired, then the other should also probably be fired. This isn't as difficult as you want to think it is. I’m not saying Riddle isn’t guilty of something, but the oral sex in the van story sounds highly unlikely. How would he manage to keep the van on the road while choking the accuser, forcing her into oral sex, and also making sure all of it was quiet enough to not wake the other three passengers in said van? If he’s guilty of something then fire his ass immediately, and don’t think twice about it (in my opinion), but that story sounds totally unbelievable. And actually one other issue I’m having with all this talk of other athletes (Kobe and Mike Tyson) is why is nobody mentioning Ben Roethlisberger? The guy is a known piece of crap, and has been accused of the same thing as Kobe was multiple times. But hey he won two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh, and apparently he’s loved by everyone, because when he’s hurt yearly the team goes to crap without him. I guess what I’m trying to say is there’s scumbags in every sport, and I don’t think certain ones should get singled out while others get a pass. Edited June 21, 2020 by MavsFan77 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Thank you for sharing your opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, RunningFromAmerica said: The problem is that what you are de facto saying is that actual victims shouldn't be able to speak out, or at least that it's wrong for them to do so. Show me where that was said. How did you read my post and arrive to where you are? Is someone being unjustly thrown in the mix a bigger issue? No, of course not but it's something worth pointing out, it's something that was happening on Twitter. I want everyone to come forward. With WWE, are they going to fire Matt Riddle off this story? Should they? These are the questions I'm asking.. Forget the political world. It seems like that doesn't matter at all. Allegations are met with complete indifference and go away as fast as they came. Edited June 21, 2020 by Niners Fan in CT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MavsFan77 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 14 minutes ago, Oyaji said: Thank you for sharing your opinion. I know you’re most likely being sarcastic, but everyone else is just voicing their opinions too, and so many are being quick to want Riddle cancelled without even reading the story of what happened. That’s why I said if he’s raped someone definitely fire him, but the story posted sounded like a 100% work of fiction. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StretchMediatedHypertrophy Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said: Show me where that was said. How did you read my post and arrive to where you are? It would take a long post to deconstruct everything you have said and show how I believe it leads to what I wrote, which I'm not going to do. But quickly Quote These stories MUST be told and victims need to feel comfortable coming forward and the monsters need to be held accountable but we cannot convict based on a story, it has to play out in the courts. 1. You probably know that what comes after a but is emphasised over what comes before it. 2. Noone is convicting per se, but you are equating other forms of judgement with that word and rendering them illegitimate if they are not accompanied by a criminal conviction. That does essentially delegitimise victims coming forward, there really isn't any two ways about that. I can explain this in more detail if you really want. ExposeWrestling was kicked off Twitter pdq so I'm not sure there's much mileage on dwelling on that. Edited June 21, 2020 by RunningFromAmerica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, MavsFan77 said: I know you’re most likely being sarcastic, but everyone else is just voicing their opinions too, and so many are being quick to want Riddle cancelled without even reading the story of what happened. That’s why I said if he’s raped someone definitely fire him, but the story posted sounded like a 100% work of fiction. I'm just thinking rape isn't always just one person violently, forcefully sexually assaulting somebody. It can be coerced with threats or other means. Did we know he's driving the van? Could they not have been in the back? From what I remember, she said he tried to force her head down. That is something that could be done quietly. I don't think there's a whole lot of positives coming from the weighing in on details, like we're analyzing a pro wrestling match or something. I think it's harmful. If you don't believe one story or multiple stories, that's fine. I'd never suggest you must believe them and burn all Riddle merch and delete him from the Network, etc. However, I don't see how letting the world know you don't believe somebody who is putting themselves in such a vulnerable spot is positive. Edited June 21, 2020 by Oyaji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godfrey Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Plus we're trying to believe the victims these days, even if it's unlikely. And in regards to Tyson, Flair, et al, just because people have let things skate by in the past doesn't mean we have to keep doing it now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 minute ago, RunningFromAmerica said: Noone is convicting per se, but you are equating other forms of judgement and rendering them illegitimate if they are not accompanied by a criminal conviction. That does essentially delegitimise victims coming forward, there really isn't any two ways about that. I can explain this in more detail if you really want. Not at all.. I want everyone to come forward and I want all of these investigated, said that numerous times. My questions are when/how is it decided that someone should be cancelled or shouldn't be cancelled and/or fired and also how does society hold the criminals accountable in the event that the court fails? Which as said is the only system we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StretchMediatedHypertrophy Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 It's the only formal system we have, yes. It feels like you are expecting societal judgement to resemble that - not very likely. I'm probably veering of into questionable territory here, but I tend to think we need to look at non-criminal ways of dealing with many rapes - I take my cue from work done in New Zealand several years ago. Yes, this means essentially having perps agree to take sensitivity training to avoid trial and conviction. (Yes, a bit like in Fleabag) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 The problem with sexual assault is providing evidence. This isn't something that can always be analyzed by experts to determine validity. And as even one of the survivors have commented on, I think it was Millie McKenzie, this isn't about cancelling people. It's about not being sexually violated or taken advantage of and cleaning the profession (and society as a whole) up. The people who are out there demanding people be "cancelled" are generally not the people coming forward with stories, interestingly enough. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MavsFan77 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 30 minutes ago, Oyaji said: I'm just thinking rape isn't always just one person violently, forcefully sexually assaulting somebody. It can be coerced with threats or other means. Did we know he's driving the van? Could they not have been in the back? From what I remember, she said he tried to force her head down. That is something that could be done quietly. I don't think there's a whole lot of positives coming from the weighing in on details, like we're analyzing a pro wrestling match or something. I think it's harmful. If you don't believe one story or multiple stories, that's fine. I'd never suggest you must believe them and burn all Riddle merch and delete him from the Network, etc. However, I don't see how letting the world know you don't believe somebody who is putting themselves in such a vulnerable spot is positive. According to her story there were five people in the van, and three of them (so everyone but her and Riddle) were asleep. From that detail either she was driving or Matt was. Assuming he was the driver (there’s no way he could force her head down if she’s the driver) how would he keep the van on the road while as she claims choked her, forced her head down, and forced her to pleasure him? As I said too there’s no way she wouldn’t have screamed or made some sort of attempt to wake the sleeping passengers. I respect what you’re saying there, and I agree with the comments about Riddle. I wasn’t trying to discredit the victim, I was simply stating why that particular story doesn’t add up. If a Riddle did abuse her in a different situation then he’s clearly trash, and needs to go. I do applaud the women who have spoken up with stories the last few days too as these guys need to be exposed. There’s no place in any industry for losers like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) Well, if you’re saying someone’s story doesn’t add up, you are attempting to discredit them. That’s just what those words put together in that order mean. Anyway, it’s gross to debate the mechanics of this. But man, Riddle is a really big, phenomenally athletic fighter, who is trained to physically overwhelm people. He can choke someone with one hand. ”Why didn’t the woman fight back better or yell?” is victim blaming. We should avoid that kind of thing. Edited June 21, 2020 by Beech27 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, zendragon said: Joey Ryan's response This just made me think of him being put in Wrestler's Court on Impact last year. Funniest thing in wrestling all year... to become probably one of the more uncomfortable things to watch in wrestling period. Edited June 21, 2020 by Curt McGirt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, Beech27 said: ”Why didn’t the woman fight back better or yell?” is victim blaming. We should avoid that kind of thing. 100% this. Also she may not have tried to wake up the others in the van because she may of had to worry about the possibility of that just making her situation worse. Really people need to come to terms with the fact that sexual assault is an epidemic in our culture and that a lot of people have to spend their times constantly weighing the situation they are to maintain the most safety they can. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coletti Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Well, I feel a little less shitty about my one-week suspension due to the Kobe thread... All this shit sucks, and hopefully the victims can get some form of justice/closure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSJ Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Well, the one bright spot in all of this is that Pete Dunne has always impressed me as a stand-up guy who doesn't suffer fools and jackholes gladly, (if at all), and there's been absolutely nothing from either side of the pond to change my opinion of him. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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