AEW - JUN 2020

[Raziel]

5 minutes ago, alstein said:

 

*Rape culture defense clipped*

 

 

Dude, this really a hill you want to die on?

[Jenalysis]

I'm not saying it was appropiate, or that he should face zero consequences.

 

I've seen folks saying he should be fired/suspended for a long time over this.   That's excessive.   What I'm saying is accountability has to fit the severity of the wrongdoing, and take into account age, time, and other factors.  If folks have a problem with that, they're trying to just punish instead of rehabilitate/change the culture, and that will lead to a backlash like it has in the past.

 

The culture of things needs to change, but part of that change is not just cancelling everyone for everything, but holding folks accountable, and those who can be forgiven need to be given a path to forgiveness. 

 

What do you think Sammy should get from this?  Fired?  Suspended for 90 days?   I want to see what you think is appropriate.  Maybe we're not as far apart as it looks like.

 

I think apology, admitting it was wrong and saying he's learned and never doing it again, and losing his benefit of the doubt should be do something again is appropriate.   A fine and counseling would be reasonable as well.

 

In the case of Ospreay- I think 3 month suspension, large pay cut, and depushed for a few years (aka what Taichi got in 2010 or so) is a minimum, and firing would be deserved.  No apology from Ospreay as it won't be genuine and we all know that.

 

In the case of Joey Ryan- cancelling, and criminal charges is appropriate.

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by alstein

[Craig H]

59 minutes ago, Ryan said:

22 is more than old enough to know better than to say something that stupid. Hell, so is about 10. If he hasn't changed by now, he never would.

Ok, this is bullshit. Do you have kids? Do you know the type of shit 10 year olds say and do, let alone 13 year olds, 16 year olds, 18, 20, and up? Do you know the types of wild shit people in their early 20s say? It may be the nearly 40 year old in me, but it's hard to not refer to people under 25 as kids.

This doesn't excuse whatever shit Sammy said. It's a learning opportunity. It's a reflection opportunity. You can't say shit like "if such and such hasn't changed by now, they never would" considering there's plenty of examples of people who grow, learn, and reflect on the fucking stupid shit they said or did and ultimately change for the better to pass that down to younger generations. Along with knowing what is and isn't assault, people of many ages need to learn or be taught that casually using the word rape isn't fucking cool. I'm not about to throw in the towel on anyone in sports, or hell, people who play games on line that tell me and my friends, "lol get raped" or similar shit when they're beating us. These people can all learn that even though that shit isn't going to hurt me, it's going to hurt someone else or affect someone else. In Sammy's case, and in the case of many, many, many others, you can't give up hope that these people can't or won't learn that saying something like "I wanted to rape her" isn't an acceptable way of describing how attractive someone is, it's not an acceptable way of describing what you're going to do to another team or opponent, it's not an acceptable way to describe shit online, and regardless of how casually you or the people around you say that shit, it doesn't make it an acceptable thing to say. 

Maybe you're more of a cynic than me, I don't know, but to me cynicism is toxic and I can't give up hope. I can't give up hope that people won't fail to learn what they do or say is wrong and they can be better. 

[John E. Dynamite]

It isn't hard for me to remember the people I hung out with when I was 21. Misogynist bro language was one of the pillars of the pecking order. It was tired, reductive, willfully ignorant and morally repugnant then just as it is now. But I know exactly what kind of world enables language like that, and I know exactly how long into a person's life that kind of garbage conditioning can linger despite knowing better. So I do partially empathize with Sammy's stupid fucking interview, and I would hope he's working on a proper apology as we speak. Suspend him for a month or two. Don't pay him. Let him know what an idiot he was, if any of his superiors in AEW have the moral ground to do so. But if he pays more for this than any of these perpetrators of truly evil shit (Ospreay absolutely included) then I'll be very disappointed.

Edited June 22, 2020 by John E. Dynamite

[Craig H]

46 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

It isn't hard for me to remember the people I hung out with when I was 21. Misogynist bro language was one of the pillars of the pecking order. It was tired, reductive, willfully ignorant and morally repugnant then just as it is now. But I know exactly what kind of world enables language like that, and I know exactly how long into a person's life that kind of garbage conditioning can linger despite knowing better. So I do partially empathize with Sammy's stupid fucking interview, and I would hope he's working on a proper apology as we speak. Suspend him for a month or two. Don't pay him. Let him know what an idiot he was, if any of his superiors in AEW have the moral ground to do so. But if he pays more for this than any of these perpetrators of truly evil shit (Ospreay absolutely included) then I'll be very disappointed.

I do wonder what you do to reign in that culture at an earlier age. Software that analyzes and detects when certain words are spoken is a thing so there's really no excuse to have someone likely younger than me telling me, "after we're done raping your team we're going to double fist your mother" without getting banned from playing that game online. And that's just an example from last night. That doesn't even address the amount of homophobic and racist remarks people make online when they think they have the shield of anonymity. Then there's trying to clean up that culture in sports. Or theater groups. Or whatever. And then you have to tackle media. I was reminded of Game of Thrones from a few years ago and the debate over the rape depicted in that show. I think having more mindful parents have a bigger discussion with their kids that goes beyond the sex talk is a start. That's why I say it's possible for people to grow and be better people. It's the people who are in their 30s or even 40s or older who still say this shit or actively assault others that worries me. Even still, you have someone like Randy Orton learning from their past mistakes so anything is possible.

And I have zero idea what you do to punish Sammy or if punishing him is even worthwhile. If he or anyone else actually assaults someone else then it's easier to throw the book at them. This is why I'm not a boss though. I can handle being a parent a home and an underling at work just fine. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Craig H

[Leonidas]

3 hours ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

You wouldn't shrug this off if someone said that against a woman you cared about.

This is an important point. Imagine if this was your sister/daughter/wife being spoken about. I'm well aware that brains are still forming until you're 25ish and he wasn't "famous" then, but he's going to have to do some serious sincere apologising, some sensitivity training and perhaps a donation of his wages (matched by AEW) towards an appropriate charity may be an idea too. 

If I was AEW/WWE etc I'd get everyone on the roster to do some serious sensitivity training as well as social media / interview training. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by King Leonidas Of Sparta

[Craig H]

5 minutes ago, King Leonidas Of Sparta said:

This is an important point. Imagine if this was your sister/daughter/wife being spoken about. I'm well aware that brains are still forming until you're 25ish and he wasn't "famous" then, but he's going to have to do some serious sincere apologising, some sensitivity training and perhaps a donation of his wages (matched by AEW) towards an appropriate charity may be an idea too. 

If I was AEW/WWE etc I'd get everyone on the roster to do some serious sensitivity training as well as social media / interview training. 

I think that's an excellent start. This is definitely an inflection point. Any sort of positive example these companies can set is good.

[odessasteps]

Theres that famous thing about tragedy and distance. To wit, one person close to you dying means more to you than thousands dying halfway around the world. Etc 

 

[TheVileOne]

Anyone who defended James Gunn and says he shouldn't have been fired by Disney has no right to call for Guevara's firing here. 

Yeah it was a bad joke and he shouldn't have said that. However, he made the joke several years ago, and he was also not even in AEW yet. 

Here were the routine defenses for James Gunn:

1. He made them years ago, they had to be dug up

2. They were just jokes

3. he already apologized for them [he didn't]

Edited June 22, 2020 by TheVileOne

[TheVileOne]

57 minutes ago, King Leonidas Of Sparta said:

This is an important point. Imagine if this was your sister/daughter/wife being spoken about. I'm well aware that brains are still forming until you're 25ish and he wasn't "famous" then, but he's going to have to do some serious sincere apologising, some sensitivity training and perhaps a donation of his wages (matched by AEW) towards an appropriate charity may be an idea too. 

If I was AEW/WWE etc I'd get everyone on the roster to do some serious sensitivity training as well as social media / interview training. 

I'd think he was some dumb, snot-nosed punk kid and I'd probably want to punch him. I'd want to teach him a lesson and make him apologize.

But should his life be ruined over this? I disagree. 

EDIT: 

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by TheVileOne

[Jenalysis]

 

 

Apology statement from Sammy.

 

[Ryan]

I remember being all of the ages listed and all of the people around me I was friends with and what they did and said. No one would ever say something like they wanted to rape someone as a joke or otherwise. The only people that did were fucking assholes and more than likely still are fucking assholes. I'm from a small town of rednecks and hicks. Don't act like I haven't heard a lot of stupid shit in my life. And don't attack me personally like I can't judge a grown adult for something so toxic and awful towards another person. There's no excuses for it. Maybe I shouldn't say he will never know better, but until anyone actually does in all this, I am not going to pretend like they did.

Edit: If his apology posted just above me is sincere, fine, hopefully he has changed, but the average person isn't so inclined to change their ways unless given a reason to. That's not cynicism, that's reality.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Ryan

[Raziel]

Sammy probably should've made sure no one went through his likes before posting that.

 

Wait, someone did.

[EVA]

Eh, I think that’s bullshit.  It was one tweet and it went away quickly.  Not like he went on a liking spree of tweets defending him.  It’s VERY easy to accidentally like a tweet when you’re just scrolling through.  (As we speak, my most recent Like is apparently an ad for legal weed, which I most assuredly do not give a fuck about.)

All that really proves is that he was reading through tweets about him, which...arguably, he should have been.

[TheVileOne]

And look at some of the responses. Social media is wrong. Sorry. 

EDIT: 

 

Sasha's response:

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by TheVileOne

[EVA]

And hey, what do you know?  While Twitter was demanding their pound of flesh and criticizing Sammy for his silence, he was actually apologizing and talking it out with the only person that mattered.

Edit:  deleted Sasha’s tweet for brevity’s sake after Vile added it to his post.

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by EVA

[Burgundy LaRue]

The problem is when Alexa Bliss dealt with the JDNY from 206 mess, a lot of wrestlers did go to social media to expose him. Why don't they do the same in protecting Sasha? It creates a certain perception, even if it isn't true.

I don't believe in 'shaming' wrestlers to give statements, either. But I see where it may seem that sides are being chosen on who gets support. It may not be that way. But perception often becomes reality.

[John from Cincinnati]

4 hours ago, alstein said:

 If you did what Sammy did in the military, you'd get paperwork at worst, most likely a very harsh chewing out.   

Ah yes, when I'm thinking of the best way to respond to behaviour that reinforces rape culture, my first thought is always "What would the military do?" This is good thinking and in no way creates a self-defeating argument. 

3 hours ago, alstein said:

In the case of Ospreay- I think 3 month suspension, large pay cut, and depushed for a few years (aka what Taichi got in 2010 or so) is a minimum, and firing would be deserved.  No apology from Ospreay as it won't be genuine and we all know that.

Counteroffer: If you try to blacklist someone who came forward as a victim of sexual assault, then you should be blacklisted. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by West Newbury Bad Boy

[Craig H]

5 minutes ago, Ryan said:

I remember being all of the ages listed and all of the people around me I was friends with and what they did and said. No one would ever say something like they wanted to rape someone as a joke or otherwise. The only people that did were fucking assholes and more than likely still are fucking assholes. I'm from a small town of rednecks and hicks. Don't act like I haven't heard a lot of stupid shit in my life. And don't attack me personally like I can't judge a grown adult for something so toxic and awful towards another person. There's no excuses for it. Maybe I shouldn't say he will never know better, but until anyone actually does in all this, I am not going to pretend like they did.

Edit: If his apology posted just above me is sincere, fine, hopefully he has changed, but the average person isn't so inclined to change their ways unless given a reason to. That's not cynicism, that's reality.

I didn't intend for my response to be an attack and I'm sorry if it came off that way. I wanted to challenge the viewpoint that essentially says "people don't change, anyone 10 and above should know better." Look, it might be reality based on the people in your small town, but who is to say some of those people haven't changed? It's not healthy to just automatically assume no one changes and no one is capable of change. That assumption and belief is a perfect example of cynicism, that inability or refusal to see the possibility of good or assume the worst.

No one is making excuses for what he said. It is however a learning opportunity and an opportunity for growth. His apology makes no excuses and acknowledges that fact. I'm sorry your small town may suck, but it's not what the rest of the world or country is even like. I hope anyway. There's a lot of good out there. No one is infallible and everyone makes mistakes. Many of those people learn from those mistakes and wind up becoming a better person. Again, you may say 23 is a grown adult and for some people they may have a greater level of maturity at that age, but many people at that age are still maturing especially if the culture you came from or grew up in/with normalized vernacular that is toxic or reprehensible. It's something you have to grow up out of and mature from and it's something I hope people are generally capable of. I'll never give up that hope or that idea that people are capable of that.

As for the average person, what exactly is the average person? Why think people are simply incapable of changing their ways unless they're given a reason when there's plenty of examples of people who naturally learn about the world around them and do change? And if people do change because they're given a reason, isn't that still a good thing that someone still wound up becoming a better person? This obviously isn't true for everyone and some people simply don't change. Just please don't let that color your view of everyone.

[TheVileOne]

The JDFromNY thing that guy's a wrestling podcaster, and that thing basically happened a few weeks ago, and I think he has a more recent history of saying such garbage on a regular basis. 

I think Sammy definitely needs to be scrutinized. If there's more evidence of him saying similar things, then sure bring it forward. If he's committed anything close what he's talking about here, bring that forth as well. I think this should be an infraction, but not the end of his career. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by TheVileOne

[Craig H]

Just now, TheVileOne said:

The JDFromNY thing that guy's a wrestling podcaster, and that thing basically happened a few weeks ago, and I think he has a more recent history of saying such garbage on a regular basis. 

I think Sammy definitely needs to be scrutinized. If there's more evidence of him saying similar things, then sure bring it forward. If he's committed anything close what he's talking about here, bring that forth as well. I think this should be an infraction, but not the end of his career. 

Pretty much this. Hold yourself accountable. I spoke on the double standard that sometimes gets applied to Tyson/prison reform, but there's another double standard in which we want elected officials and others to hold themselves accountable, but not everyone in various communities. This is drawing something of a line, but if you said one thing that is reprehensible and shitty, come out with everything you said that is reprehensible and shitty and hold yourself accountable for those mistakes. Yeah, that might be painful, but the words you initially said when you thought they were funny or harmless hurt others just as much. Your own pain from being ashamed at admitting to that shit is less that the pain someone else may feel. Not saying there's more of what Sammy said that's out there, but it's an opportunity for wrestlers to speak out in their own way. Don't just hide and hope things you said in the past won't come to light, speak out about it and commit yourself to holding yourself to a better or higher standard.

[odessasteps]

I like the idea that if someone doesnt respond to a tweet in an hour, they must be hiding. 

Not everyone lives on social media. 

[Craig H]

11 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I like the idea that if someone doesnt respond to a tweet in an hour, they must be hiding. 

Not everyone lives on social media. 

EDIT: Derp. Misunderstanding.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Craig H

[Ryan]

27 minutes ago, Craig H said:

I didn't intend for my response to be an attack and I'm sorry if it came off that way. I wanted to challenge the viewpoint that essentially says "people don't change, anyone 10 and above should know better." Look, it might be reality based on the people in your small town, but who is to say some of those people haven't changed? It's not healthy to just automatically assume no one changes and no one is capable of change. That assumption and belief is a perfect example of cynicism, that inability or refusal to see the possibility of good or assume the worst.

No one is making excuses for what he said. It is however a learning opportunity and an opportunity for growth. His apology makes no excuses and acknowledges that fact. I'm sorry your small town may suck, but it's not what the rest of the world or country is even like. I hope anyway. There's a lot of good out there. No one is infallible and everyone makes mistakes. Many of those people learn from those mistakes and wind up becoming a better person. Again, you may say 23 is a grown adult and for some people they may have a greater level of maturity at that age, but many people at that age are still maturing especially if the culture you came from or grew up in/with normalized vernacular that is toxic or reprehensible. It's something you have to grow up out of and mature from and it's something I hope people are generally capable of. I'll never give up that hope or that idea that people are capable of that.

As for the average person, what exactly is the average person? Why think people are simply incapable of changing their ways unless they're given a reason when there's plenty of examples of people who naturally learn about the world around them and do change? And if people do change because they're given a reason, isn't that still a good thing that someone still wound up becoming a better person? This obviously isn't true for everyone and some people simply don't change. Just please don't let that color your view of everyone.

Yeah, I'm just stupidly venting for no reason. Projecting my own opinions onto the world at large is stupid of me. He apologized. I'll leave it at that, it's none of my business what either of them do.

[odessasteps]

I was referring to the tweet above where the person called out people and then said "it's been an hour and no response yet."